Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

PhD student with relatively low uGPA.


Recommended Posts

I'm a medical physics PhD student and recently considering applying to medical school some years down the line. Unfortunately, my undergraduate GPA is incredibly low (3.5 cumulative). Even though that was high enough to get into all graduate programs of my choice, it's not nearly high enough to be competitive for medical schools here. Will the PhD along with the research publications I've done and clinical experience I've gained thus far doing the PhD make any difference at any of the schools?

 

My background is:

Bsc mathematics and physics with 3.5 cGPA.

MSc physics with an average of A overall. Research was not medical related.

Medical physics PhD (in progress) with an average of an A across all coursework.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a medical physics PhD student and recently considering applying to medical school some years down the line. Unfortunately, my undergraduate GPA is incredibly low (3.5 cumulative). Even though that was high enough to get into all graduate programs of my choice, it's not nearly high enough to be competitive for medical schools here. Will the PhD along with the research publications I've done and clinical experience I've gained thus far doing the PhD make any difference at any of the schools?

 

My background is:

Bsc mathematics and physics with 3.5 cGPA.

MSc physics with an average of A overall. Research was not medical related.

Medical physics PhD (in progress) with an average of an A across all coursework.

 

For some schools it will make you shine and other schools it won't make a difference. You have a very good chance at UofT despite your low GPA (they look at research very very highly, especially with publications). I've heard UofT med's classes have a large proportion of grad students. And schools like Mcmaster give you an extra +3 points for having done your PhD. And there are PhD candidates with lower GPA than your who have gotten in so you have a pretty good chance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For some schools it will make you shine and other schools it won't make a difference. You have a very good chance at UofT despite your low GPA (they look at research very very highly, especially with publications). I've heard UofT med's classes have a large proportion of grad students. And schools like Mcmaster give you an extra +3 points for having done your PhD. And there are PhD candidates with lower GPA than your who have gotten in so you have a pretty good chance.

 

Heh. I would never have guessed I'd be competitive at UofT.

 

I'm going to take a shot in the dark, but it seems to me that most other schools are unfortunately not like UofT and give absolutely no preference to graduate students with excellent research and direct clinical experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jolt, post all of your ug and phd grades, omsas converted, grouped by semester.

 

First year, fall semester:

Physics I - 3.7

Calc I - 3.7

Linear algebra I - 3.3

Introduction to computer programming - 3.3

General elective - 3.7

First year, winter semester:

Physics II - 4.0

Calc II - 4.0

Linear algebra II - 3.7

Discrete math - 3.3

General elective: 3.7

First year, summer semester:

General elective: 4.0

General elective: 4.0

First year major GPA: 3.7

 

Second year, fall semester:

Classical mechanics - 3.7

Calc III - 3.7

Thermal physics - 3.0

Computational physics I - 3.7

Second year, winter semester:

Electricity&Magnetism - 3.0

Ordinary differential equations: 3.3

Intro to mathematical logic - 3.0

Intro to quantum mechanics - 2.3

Second year, summer semester:

General elective: 3.7

General elective: 3.7

Second year major GPA: 3.2

 

Third year, fall semester:

Quantum Mechanics I - 3.7

Topology 3.3

Electromagnetism I - 3.7

Optics - 2.0

Group/Representation Theory - 3.7

Third year, winter semester:

Physics lab I - 3.7

Differential Geometry - 3.7

Introduction to real analysis- 3.3

Classical mechanics - 4.0

Third year major GPA: 3.45

 

Fourth year, fall semester:

Complex Analysis - 3.7

Partial differential equations 3.7

Electronics lab - 3.3

Quantum mechanics - 4.0

Physics lab II - 3.7

Fourth year, winter semester:

Real analysis - 3.0

Statistical mechanics - 4.0

Electromagnetism II - 4.0

Fluid Dynamics - 3.7

Condensed matter physics - 4.0

Fourth year GPA: 3.7

 

Due to preferring to keep total anonymity and for other reasons, I won't post my graduate level grades but I'd be more than happy to PM them to you if you wish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First year, fall semester:

Physics I - 3.7

Calc I - 3.7

Linear algebra I - 3.3

Introduction to computer programming - 3.3

General elective - 3.7

First year, winter semester:

Physics II - 4.0

Calc II - 4.0

Linear algebra II - 3.7

Discrete math - 3.3

General elective: 3.7

First year, summer semester:

General elective: 4.0

General elective: 4.0

First year major GPA: 3.7 3.64

 

Second year, fall semester:

Classical mechanics - 3.7

Calc III - 3.7

Thermal physics - 3.0

Computational physics I - 3.7

Second year, winter semester:

Electricity&Magnetism - 3.0

Ordinary differential equations: 3.3

Intro to mathematical logic - 3.0

Intro to quantum mechanics - 2.3

Second year, summer semester:

General elective: 3.7

General elective: 3.7

Second year major GPA: 3.2

 

Third year, fall semester:

Quantum Mechanics I - 3.7

Topology 3.3

Electromagnetism I - 3.7

Optics - 2.0

Group/Representation Theory - 3.7

Third year, winter semester:

Physics lab I - 3.7

Differential Geometry - 3.7

Introduction to real analysis- 3.3

Classical mechanics - 4.0

Third year major GPA: 3.45

 

Fourth year, fall semester:

Complex Analysis - 3.7

Partial differential equations 3.7

Electronics lab - 3.3

Quantum mechanics - 4.0

Physics lab II - 3.7

Fourth year, winter semester:

Real analysis - 3.0

Statistical mechanics - 4.0

Electromagnetism II - 4.0

Fluid Dynamics - 3.7

Condensed matter physics - 4.0

Fourth year GPA: 3.7

 

Due to preferring to keep total anonymity and for other reasons, I won't post my graduate level grades but I'd be more than happy to PM them to you if you wish.

 

Summer courses don't count. When you say "major GPA" you mean all courses right? Don't need breakdown of grad GPA just the score.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I simply mean courses pertaining only to my major. Grad GPA is an A averaged across all coursework.

 

We need your OMSAS GPA by year with # of courses taken during a standard academic calendar.

 

We don't really need your individual course GPA. And, it's based on ALL courses.

 

Eg:

 

Year 1: OMSAS GPA is 3.73

 

Year 2

Etc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We need your OMSAS GPA by year with # of courses taken during a standard academic calendar.

 

We don't really need your individual course GPA. And, it's based on ALL courses.

 

Eg:

 

Year 1: OMSAS GPA is 3.73

 

Year 2

Etc

Assuming what the poster said above was correct, that summer courses don't count, then:

 

First year: 10 courses, GPA: 3.64

Second year: 8 courses, GPA: 3.2

Third year: 9 courses, GPA: 3.45

Fourth year: 10 courses, GPA: 3.7.

 

Comes out to about a cGPA of 3.5.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Assuming what the poster said above was correct, that summer courses don't count, then:

 

First year: 10 courses, GPA: 3.64

Second year: 8 courses, GPA: 3.2

Third year: 9 courses, GPA: 3.45

Fourth year: 10 courses, GPA: 3.7.

 

Comes out to about a cGPA of 3.5.

 

U of T likes graduate students, but even then, a 3.5 is quite low. Definitely throw in an application, but it'd be an uphill battle. McMaster is also a possibility if you have a high enough verbal score on the MCAT, though again, it'd be an uphill battle.

 

Past that... probably looking at a (short) second undergrad to be competitive for Canadian med schools, unless you have regional eligibility through NOSM or something to that effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

U of T likes graduate students, but even then, a 3.5 is quite low. Definitely throw in an application, but it'd be an uphill battle. McMaster is also a possibility if you have a high enough verbal score on the MCAT, though again, it'd be an uphill battle.

 

Past that... probably looking at a (short) second undergrad to be competitive for Canadian med schools, unless you have regional eligibility through NOSM or something to that effect.

 

I am in a similar situation but must say I don't agree with the second undergrad degree option. This will look really bad on your CV for landing a job in the field relevant to your Ph.D. I would continue to work hard and publish and hopefully that would shine through. I actually think a post-doc is a better option than going back and doing undergrad courses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am in a similar situation but must say I don't agree with the second undergrad degree option. This will look really bad on your CV for landing a job in the field relevant to your Ph.D. I would continue to work hard and publish and hopefully that would shine through. I actually think a post-doc is a better option than going back and doing undergrad courses.

 

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to do a second undergraduate. That would be ridiculous. I'd much rather not go to medical school at all and continue my path to medical physicist than take on more debt that is most probably not even possible at this point.

 

From the looks of it, it looks like I'll have to either go to the U.S or some other international school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to do a second undergraduate. That would be ridiculous. I'd much rather not go to medical school at all and continue my path to medical physicist than take on more debt that is most probably not even possible at this point.

 

From the looks of it, it looks like I'll have to either go to the U.S or some other international school.

 

I pretty much agree with you. I don't think you should give up hope for Canadian medical schools. You will have some fantastic references from your PhD supervisor and committee members and publications. You should score high on the MCAT. If you work with MDs along the way, that will give you additional references. Your CV will only get stronger with time as you get publications, awards, etc. I know students with PhDs who have been accepted with lower GPAs than yours. I think people on this forum will argue that it may be "statistically" better to do a second undergrad and boost your GPA for it to get closer to the admission GPA. However, for people who have invested in a 5-year PhD, that's a ridiculous option and a CV killer. I am personally not even considering this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am in a similar situation but must say I don't agree with the second undergrad degree option. This will look really bad on your CV for landing a job in the field relevant to your Ph.D. I would continue to work hard and publish and hopefully that would shine through. I actually think a post-doc is a better option than going back and doing undergrad courses.

 

I'm not necessarily advising a second degree, just saying that to go from a marginal chance to a reasonable chance at med school, that's probably what's required. I'm only here to provide information and perspective :)

 

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to do a second undergraduate. That would be ridiculous. I'd much rather not go to medical school at all and continue my path to medical physicist than take on more debt that is most probably not even possible at this point.

 

From the looks of it, it looks like I'll have to either go to the U.S or some other international school.

 

If a second degree is off the table, then apply to the few schools that might consider you with the understanding that your chances might not be that great. If debt is a concern, the international route would be very inadvisable due to their high tuition and travel costs, not to mention the low residency opportunities. The U.S. schools are better on that front, especially when it comes to residency opportunities, but still carry a very high cost relative to Canadian schools.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I pretty much agree with you. I don't think you should give up hope for Canadian medical schools. You will have some fantastic references from your PhD supervisor and committee members and publications. You should score high on the MCAT. If you work with MDs along the way, that will give you additional references. Your CV will only get stronger with time as you get publications, awards, etc. I know students with PhDs who have been accepted with lower GPAs than yours. I think people on this forum will argue that it may be "statistically" better to do a second undergrad and boost your GPA for it to get closer to the admission GPA. However, for people who have invested in a 5-year PhD, that's a ridiculous option and a CV killer. I am personally not even considering this.

 

In Canada, references count for approximately ****-all, they are a screen for red flags and not something that will make or break you. Pubs and research help a bit more, but there is definitely a plateau, meaning if you have 5 you're not that much better off than someone with 3. yes, there are stories of people on here who have got in with lower GPA's, there is even one PhD student who got in with a cGPA of 3.0. It is very rare, and on average they have to apply multiple times so yes the stats are very much in favor of doing a second undergrad. If the OP wants a real shot at getting into a school in Canada without a second undergrad then they should move to Alberta, in Ontario its more like a snowball's chance in hell. The US is an option but the MCAt will count a lot more and regardless of what your PhD is in, I would caution you against thinking you can walk in and get a high score after being so far removed from basic sciences. International, well that's another conversation.

 

GL to you OP with whatever you decide to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I pretty much agree with you. I don't think you should give up hope for Canadian medical schools. You will have some fantastic references from your PhD supervisor and committee members and publications. You should score high on the MCAT. If you work with MDs along the way, that will give you additional references. Your CV will only get stronger with time as you get publications, awards, etc. I know students with PhDs who have been accepted with lower GPAs than yours. I think people on this forum will argue that it may be "statistically" better to do a second undergrad and boost your GPA for it to get closer to the admission GPA. However, for people who have invested in a 5-year PhD, that's a ridiculous option and a CV killer. I am personally not even considering this.

 

Absolutely true that there are PhD students that get in with lower cGPAs than 3.50, and with U of T's weighting formula, it'll actually be better than that. Still, there are norms and exceptions to the norm, and most PhD applicants who are accepted have better undergrad GPAs.

 

Again, my intention is not to say "this is what you should do", but rather, "if you take this path, this is what your options/chances are"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not necessarily advising a second degree, just saying that to go from a marginal chance to a reasonable chance at med school, that's probably what's required. I'm only here to provide information and perspective :)

 

 

 

If a second degree is off the table, then apply to the few schools that might consider you with the understanding that your chances might not be that great. If debt is a concern, the international route would be very inadvisable due to their high tuition and travel costs, not to mention the low residency opportunities. The U.S. schools are better on that front, especially when it comes to residency opportunities, but still carry a very high cost relative to Canadian schools.

 

 

I don't disagree with you and the poster above. However, the OP would be compromising his current career trajectory if he were to disappear for two years and do another undergraduate degree. A lot of schools (UBC for instance) weigh non-academic portion of the application quite high. I think the second UG degree is a viable option for a person who's finished with their first undergrad or a masters. However, for a PhD applicant (not sure how many there are out there), it's compromising five years of hard work for a potential chance at medicine (in his case probably more than five years as a masters is completed as well). I don't think this is the best option for OP but he/she knows best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with you and the poster above. However, the OP would be compromising his current career trajectory if he were to disappear for two years and do another undergraduate degree. A lot of schools (UBC for instance) weigh non-academic portion of the application quite high (50% for UBC for instance). I think the second UG degree is a viable option for a person who's finished with their first undergrad or a masters. However, for a PhD applicant (not sure how many there are out there), it's compromising five years of hard work for a potential chance at medicine. I don't think this is the best option for OP but he/she knows best.

 

A second undergrad doesn't exactly erase a PhD, especially if done in a complimentary discipline. It would delay that career path, for certain, just as doing a second degree delays the non-medicine career path for everyone who chooses to take that route, regardless of where they are in their career.

 

I'm fairly certain I did the exact same undergrad as the OP and Medical Physicist was one of the paths I seriously considered. There are certainly ways to do a second undergrad without compromising that career path. There are benefits and drawbacks to that choice, just as there are benefits and drawbacks to any choice - those pros and cons are for each individual to balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

U of T likes graduate students, but even then, a 3.5 is quite low. Definitely throw in an application, but it'd be an uphill battle. McMaster is also a possibility if you have a high enough verbal score on the MCAT, though again, it'd be an uphill battle.

 

Past that... probably looking at a (short) second undergrad to be competitive for Canadian med schools, unless you have regional eligibility through NOSM or something to that effect.

 

After a certain point GPA isn't as important for grad students/PhD/Post-doccs. I mean there are post-docs that get accepted with a 3.3 GPA. I'm assuming Jolt has publications backing him up and other stuff. Jolt, If i were you I would just keep applying every year and boosting up your application by getting more publications + EC's + improving your essays. Will you get in eventually? Yes, but it could take time. But if you keep applying you will get in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A second undergrad doesn't exactly erase a PhD, especially if done in a complimentary discipline. It would delay that career path, for certain, just as doing a second degree delays the non-medicine career path for everyone who chooses to take that route, regardless of where they are in their career.

 

I'm fairly certain I did the exact same undergrad as the OP and Medical Physicist was one of the paths I seriously considered. There are certainly ways to do a second undergrad without compromising that career path. There are benefits and drawbacks to that choice, just as there are benefits and drawbacks to any choice - those pros and cons are for each individual to balance.

 

It depends on what career OP has in mind. If they are interested pursuing post-doctoral fellowship or academic science, I think it would be detrimental. They would have to explain the gap in their CV. Academic science would look very negatively at this. Working a full-time job in the future while seriously pursuing full-time UG courses will be difficult. All I am saying is that an applicant in this situation has to consider multiple factors before jumping into a second undergrad degree. Perhaps it may be better for the OP to continue pursuing the current trajectory and earn some money in the upcoming years and have a 10% chance at medicine than leave to pursue a 2nd undergrad degree, acquire more debt, compromise his CV, and have a 30-40% chance at medicine. This is a personal decision for the OP and how much he wants to pursue medicine but I think OP has to think carefully about this decision. I am not even sure how the admission committee will look at a PhD who went back to undergrad to boost their GPA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It depends on what career OP has in mind. If they are interested pursuing post-doctoral fellowship or academic science, I think it would be detrimental. Working a full-time job in the future while seriously pursuing full-time UG courses will be difficult. All I am saying is that an applicant in this situation has to consider multiple factors before jumping into a second undergrad degree. Perhaps it may be better for the OP to continue pursuing the current trajectory and earn some money in the upcoming years and have a 10-20% chance at medicine than leave to pursue a 2nd undergrad degree, ruin his CV, and have a 40-50% chance at medicine. This is a personal decision for the OP and how much they want to pursue medicine but I think OP has to think carefully about this decision.

 

I absolutely agree that there are many factors to consider and that a second degree isn't for everyone. U of T does take grad students with lower GPAs, and while it may take more than one application cycle, it's a viable and sensible path.

 

Where I am going to disagree is this notion that doing a second degree, any second degree, would ruin their CV. There are ways to justify additional undergrad work in a complimentary fashion for someone looking at becoming a Medical Physicist, if that was something they were interested in (obviously that doesn't apply here).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I absolutely agree that there are many factors to consider and that a second degree isn't for everyone. U of T does take grad students with lower GPAs, and while it may take more than one application cycle, it's a viable and sensible path.

 

Where I am going to disagree is this notion that doing a second degree, any second degree, would ruin their CV. There are ways to justify additional undergrad work in a complimentary fashion for someone looking at becoming a Medical Physicist, if that was something they were interested in (obviously that doesn't apply here).

 

I like the discussion and I think we are presenting different options for the OP. In his case though, he has a masters in physics as well and I think he would have more than sufficient courses in his substantive area to pursue a career in medical biophysics. So I would assume that to pursue a second UG, he would have to first take a lot of extra courses to up his GPA, most of them which will not related to medical biophysics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the discussion and I think we are presenting different options for the OP. In his case though, he has a masters in physics as well and I think he would have more than sufficient courses in his substantive area to pursue a career in medical biophysics. So I would assume that to pursue a second UG, he would have to first take a lot of extra courses to up his GPA, most of them which will not related to medical biophysics.

 

There's always opportunities for work in related fields. Biomedical engineering or even something like an epidemiology-focused public health degree could have relevance, off the top of my head. The main benefit would still be to med school applications, but something like that would provide some unique breadth that would be of some use to a medical physicist - and would at least justify the additional undergrad coursework. Plus, with the OP's credentials and contacts, it should be fairly easy to continue to do some research and publish during that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...