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PhD student with relatively low uGPA.


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There's always opportunities for work in related fields. Biomedical engineering or even something like an epidemiology-focused public health degree could have relevance, off the top of my head. The main benefit would still be to med school applications, but something like that would provide some unique breadth that would be of some use to a medical physicist - and would at least justify the additional undergrad coursework. Plus, with the OP's credentials and contacts, it should be fairly easy to continue to do some research and publish during that time.

 

Yeah this is true. Continuing to work (and publish) while taking full course load (and obviously trying to get first class marks) will be very challenging.

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If a second degree is off the table, then apply to the few schools that might consider you with the understanding that your chances might not be that great. If debt is a concern, the international route would be very inadvisable due to their high tuition and travel costs, not to mention the low residency opportunities. The U.S. schools are better on that front, especially when it comes to residency opportunities, but still carry a very high cost relative to Canadian schools.

 

As it is for now, my plan is to continue on with the medical physics path and eventually pursue medical school sometime down the road. I understand that going the international route (outside of the U.S) would present certain difficulties in getting into a residency, but at that point wouldn't the PhD offset that at least for research-intensive specialties?

 

Personally, I want to do something related to my PhD and mostly focus on research. Other than something oncology related, the vast majority of the other specialties are irrelevant to my research. From the radiation oncologists I know and have casually approached about this before, they all say I should practically be a shoe-in for these programs given my background so long as I can get in somewhere. In fact, it's actually quite common for many radiation oncologists these days to have a medical physics background at least in my experience.

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As it is for now, my plan is to continue on with the medical physics path and eventually pursue medical school sometime down the road. I understand that going the international route (outside of the U.S) would present certain difficulties in getting into a residency, but at that point wouldn't the PhD offset that at least for research-intensive specialties?

 

Personally, I want to do something related to my PhD and mostly focus on research. Other than something oncology related, the vast majority of the other specialties are irrelevant to my research. From the radiation oncologists I know and have casually approached about this before, they all say I should practically be a shoe-in for these programs given my background so long as I can get in somewhere. In fact, it's actually quite common for many radiation oncologists these days to have a medical physics background at least in my experience.

 

If undergrads with near or perfect GPA's aren't shoe-in's for spots then I doubt you will be either simply because of a PhD.

 

A PhD is not essential to acquiring an MD whereas the determination that comes from hauling ass for 4 years to achieve a high GPA demonstrates capability for academic rigor. Even though you gave a course list and degree which is more difficult than the average premed that's not really taken into consideration. So you're left with showing that you are, by comparison with your competition, a good researcher and not necessarily a good student capable of handling the rigor of med school.

 

I'm not saying I believe this viewpoint, just pointing out that competition is tough and there's a reason grad students don't see bigger consideration of their studies.

 

If cGPA with ALL UG courses is around 3.5 then i'd give Mac a shot if you can really nail MCAT VR and then do well on Casper.

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If undergrads with near or perfect GPA's aren't shoe-in's for spots then I doubt you will be either simply because of a PhD.

 

A PhD is not essential to acquiring an MD whereas the determination that comes from hauling ass for 4 years to achieve a high GPA demonstrates capability for academic rigor. Even though you gave a course list and degree which is more difficult than the average premed that's not really taken into consideration. So you're left with showing that you are, by comparison with your competition, a good researcher and not necessarily a good student capable of handling the rigor of med school.

 

I'm not saying I believe this viewpoint, just pointing out that competition is tough and there's a reason grad students don't see bigger consideration of their studies.

 

If cGPA with ALL UG courses is around 3.5 then i'd give Mac a shot if you can really nail MCAT VR and then do well on Casper.

 

isn't the OP referring to radiation oncology as a specialty? For someone with his background getting into that with todays over supply and lack of popularity in the field is probably not that difficult at all.

 

getting into medical school itself is a different matter of course

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As it is for now, my plan is to continue on with the medical physics path and eventually pursue medical school sometime down the road. I understand that going the international route (outside of the U.S) would present certain difficulties in getting into a residency, but at that point wouldn't the PhD offset that at least for research-intensive specialties?

 

Personally, I want to do something related to my PhD and mostly focus on research. Other than something oncology related, the vast majority of the other specialties are irrelevant to my research. From the radiation oncologists I know and have casually approached about this before, they all say I should practically be a shoe-in for these programs given my background so long as I can get in somewhere. In fact, it's actually quite common for many radiation oncologists these days to have a medical physics background at least in my experience.

 

A PhD makes things easier going the international route, but wouldn't bring you up to the chances of a non-PhD CMG. You're right in that your chances at physics-heavy residencies such as Rad Onc would be better - but there are difficulties down that path as well.

 

You mentioned cost as a reason not to do another undergrad, but international schools would carry a much higher cost than a 2-year undergrad + Canadian MD (though it would save time, of course). I would say the main downside is that there is (currently) only a single IMG position in the country in the first iteration for Rad Onc, though there are a few positions that last until the second iteration. Each of those spots would probably be quite competitive, even with the advantage of your background. Basically, doing an IMG degree is a better option for you than a lot of other people considering that route, but it still doesn't necessarily make it a good option. A US program, at least, would sidestep several of these issues.

 

There is also a reason that those specialties are less competitive, namely that getting jobs is quite difficult. It's impossible to predict what things will be like 10+ years in the future, especially in small, technology-dependent fields like Rad Onc, but you'd have to be prepared for potentially multiple fellowships and/or to move to places that wouldn't be your first choice to live.

 

Lastly, how sure are you that you'd enjoy a job in one of those specialties? My background isn't identical to your's, but it's quite similar, and I can say that despite having a strong background in fields like Rad Onc, they're fairly low on my list of desired specialties.

 

Again, if you've thought about these potential barriers and are comfortable dealing with them, that's all I'm after - too many people go overseas for medical school without appreciating the difficulties they might face.

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OP, are you from Ontario?

 

Without a second undergrad, your only fighting chances are

1) Mac with an excellent verbal and casper and

2) U of T with a reasonable MCAT.

You are not competitive with your grades but it's worth trying your hand at the mcat.

 

Failing these, you can go to the states or overseas. The general opinion is that you'll be treated as a Canadian medical graduate (CMG) in our residency match (Carms) if you're a Canadian from a US school. You will be treated as an international medical grad (IMG) from an overseas school.

 

Rad onc is among the non-competitive specialties in Canada so coming back from overseas will be easier vs. other disciplines. However, there is a job shortage and programs are cutting their spots in recognition of this. Cuts were made this past Carms cycle. You will still need good grades during school, strong clerkship evaluations and LORS, and high MCCEE MCCQE1 scores. It would surprise me that your research background could replace the other aspects of your application, as your rad onc friends have suggested.

 

Rad onc matching in the US is fiercely competitive --you will need to be at the top of your class to match.

 

I think we're discussing a bit more than necessary without your MCAT. Come back with your score and we'll have more to play with.

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You mentioned cost as a reason not to do another undergrad, but international schools would carry a much higher cost than a 2-year undergrad + Canadian MD (though it would save time, of course). I would say the main downside is that there is (currently) only a single IMG position in the country in the first iteration for Rad Onc, though there are a few positions that last until the second iteration. Each of those spots would probably be quite competitive, even with the advantage of your background. Basically, doing an IMG degree is a better option for you than a lot of other people considering that route, but it still doesn't necessarily make it a good option. A US program, at least, would sidestep several of these issues.

 

2 year undergrad? I thought when people mean a "second degree", they mean the full 4 years? 2 years is actually a lot more doable and I may consider it. But what exactly would the 2 years change? Will it make me competitive at most schools or just 2 of them? Also, if you notice my course list, there are only a handful of courses that are potentially bringing my cGPA down from being competitive. I would much rather retake them and ace them than do a second degree. The only problem is, I doubt medical schools even consider the second grade and will only consider the first grade into the GPA calculation, correct? I know many U.S schools will only take the second grade into consideration, so even if it doesn't change anything in Canada, that would make me quite competitive for American schools (assuming I have a good MCAT score which I'm well aware is not a guarantee)?

 

 

Lastly, how sure are you that you'd enjoy a job in one of those specialties? My background isn't identical to your's, but it's quite similar, and I can say that despite having a strong background in fields like Rad Onc, they're fairly low on my list of desired specialties.

 

Are you interested or have done any research, though? Personally, I'd still like to do research and essentially be a physician scientist post medical school. The only fields that complements my current research in medical physics are those that are oncology related. I personally can't see myself only doing purely clinical physician jobs and would rather stick with being a researcher than that.

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2 year undergrad? I thought when people mean a "second degree", they mean the full 4 years? 2 years is actually a lot more doable and I may consider it. But what exactly would the 2 years change? Will it make me competitive at most schools or just 2 of them? Also, if you notice my course list, there are only a handful of courses that are potentially bringing my cGPA down from being competitive. I would much rather retake them and ace them than do a second degree. The only problem is, I doubt medical schools even consider the second grade and will only consider the first grade into the GPA calculation, correct? I know many U.S schools will only take the second grade into consideration, so even if it doesn't change anything in Canada, that would make me quite competitive for American schools (assuming I have a good MCAT score which I'm well aware is not a guarantee)?

 

Basically you do a 4-year program in 2 years using transfer credits from your previous degree. Having the undergrad program you have makes it kinda difficult to arrange (speaking from experience here), but certainly not impossible.

 

How each school uses that new degree is different. Western and Queen's will look only at that new degree. McMaster will combine marks from both of them.

 

You're right about repeat courses - for a bunch of reasons they shouldn't be taken if Canadian Med Schools are the goal. I don't know enough about American school policies to comment on whether it's good for that route.

 

I think tooty has it absolutely right - without an MCAT score, it's hard to say which way to go. A second degree would give you a great shot at some schools, but only with a good MCAT, so might as well figure out where you stand there first.

 

 

Are you interested or have done any research, though? Personally, I'd still like to do research and essentially be a physician scientist post medical school. The only fields that complements my current research in medical physics are those that are oncology related. I personally can't see myself only doing purely clinical physician jobs and would rather stick with being a researcher than that.

 

I'm quite interested in research, but I'm not wedded to the fields of work I already have experience in. Right now I'm transitioning a bit - using my knowledge of medical physics and diagnostic imaging to get more involved in broader medical research. Keep in mind that even the more research-oriented physicians tend to do work that's quite a bit different from what a pure academic does - much more clinically focused, less of an emphasis on the basic sciences.

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How each school uses that new degree is different. Western and Queen's will look only at that new degree. McMaster will combine marks from both of them.

 

You're right about repeat courses - for a bunch of reasons they shouldn't be taken if Canadian Med Schools are the goal. I don't know enough about American school policies to comment on whether it's good for that route.

 

From doing some basic quick research, it seems to me that the all the DO schools will only consider the second grade, while MD schools average the two. If I were to go back and retake second year quantum, E&M, thermal, the intro to logic course and turn those grades into 4.0 (all of them would be a joke to me at this point), that would give me a second year GPA of 3.8 (counting summer courses). Also, retaking optics and getting an A+ in it (would also be trivial at this point) would give me a third year GPA of a 3.7 and giving me a cGPA of 3.72. IMO, that's a lot more practical and realistic given my situation than a second degree that will only possibly make me competitive at only 2 schools (Queens and Western).

 

From my reading of SDN, apparently a 3.5 and a good MCAT is quite competitive for many schools. But, I've also read Canadians need to have a much higher GPA to be competitive. So, by retaking those classes and getting my cGPA up to a 3.72, I would think I'd be pretty competitive for the DO schools even as a Canadian assuming I do well on the MCAT as well.

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From doing some basic quick research, it seems to me that the all the DO schools will only consider the second grade, while MD schools average the two. If I were to go back and retake second year quantum, E&M, thermal, the intro to logic course and turn those grades into 4.0 (all of them would be a joke to me at this point), that would give me a second year GPA of 3.8 (counting summer courses). Also, retaking optics and getting an A+ in it (would also be trivial at this point) would give me a third year GPA of a 3.7 and giving me a cGPA of 3.72. IMO, that's a lot more practical and realistic given my situation than a second degree that will only possibly make me competitive at only 2 schools (Queens and Western).

 

From my reading of SDN, apparently a 3.5 and a good MCAT is quite competitive for many schools. But, I've also read Canadians need to have a much higher GPA to be competitive. So, by retaking those classes and getting my cGPA up to a 3.72, I would think I'd be pretty competitive for the DO schools even as a Canadian assuming I do well on the MCAT as well.

 

There are downsides to DO schools as well, especially if you're after specialties like Rad Onc. DO grads are traditionally at a disadvantage when applying for competitive specialties in the US and any specialty in Canada. That's changing, quite quickly by the sounds of it, but there's still a preference against DO grads in many fields/programs.

 

Again, you've got a good background for Rad Onc, but the path you're looking at means getting into those specialties is not a guarantee. Are you prepared for the possibility of doing something not too related to medical physics, such as Family Med?

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There are downsides to DO schools as well, especially if you're after specialties like Rad Onc. DO grads are traditionally at a disadvantage when applying for competitive specialties in the US and any specialty in Canada. That's changing, quite quickly by the sounds of it, but there's still a preference against DO grads in many fields/programs.

 

So, in your estimation, is it worth doing an extra 2 years of full course-loads and not go the DO route at all?

 

Assuming I go the 2 year route, and assuming I pull off a 3.9-4.0 for those 2 years, how competitive would that make me for schools like UofT, Queens, and Western? That would bring up my total cGPA to a 3.65, but since I cannot apply to the weighting formula, that would still make me uncompetitive at UofT no? What about at Queens/Western? Would the research and PhD allow me to sufficiently distinguish myself from the other students who don't have the required background? Or would this be a waste of time and I'm better going the DO route and take my chances?

 

Again, you've got a good background for Rad Onc, but the path you're looking at means getting into those specialties is not a guarantee. Are you prepared for the possibility of doing something not too related to medical physics, such as Family Med?

 

 

If I can't get into radiation oncology, I'd be equally interested in nuclear medicine and radiology (which I realize is highly unrealistic at this point). I would also be equally interested in internal medicine (specifically hematology/oncology).

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So, in your estimation, is it worth doing an extra 2 years of full course-loads and not go the DO route at all?

 

Assuming I go the 2 year route, and assuming I pull off a 3.9-4.0 for those 2 years, how competitive would that make me for schools like UofT, Queens, and Western? That would bring up my total cGPA to a 3.65, but since I cannot apply to the weighting formula, that would still make me uncompetitive at UofT no? What about at Queens/Western? Would the research and PhD allow me to sufficiently distinguish myself from the other students who don't have the required background? Or would this be a waste of time and I'm better going the DO route and take my chances?

 

If you had a second degree with a 3.9+ in both years, along with a high enough MCAT score, you'd be competitive at both Queens and Western. A PhD would probably help a bit at Queens as a resume-builder, but wouldn't really matter at Western. There's no real "required" background for either of those schools, both accept a fairly academically diverse set of students.

 

U of T you already have a shot at due to your graduate work, and a second degree probably wouldn't make too much of a difference. Applicants with a PhD do get in with your GPA, they just aren't the norm. Regardless of what path you take, it's going to be worth throwing in an application to U of T, because you never know - it might lead to an acceptance.

 

I don't know which option is right for you, I just want you to be able to make that decision as informed as possible. Doing a second undergrad has some upsides, but also some downsides. So does doing a DO degree in the States. So does taking neither option and rolling the dice by applying only to U of T and maybe McMaster with the GPA you have. The only path I'd recommend against is going the international route - the costs are too high and the chances of getting what you want are too low to make it worthwhile. Again, first place to start is the MCAT. How you perform on that will open up or narrow down your options, which can make the decision a lot easier.

 

If I can't get into radiation oncology, I'd be equally interested in nuclear medicine and radiology (which I realize is highly unrealistic at this point). I would also be equally interested in internal medicine (specifically hematology/oncology).

 

Nuclear medicine is in much the same boat as Rad Onc in Canada - easy residency to get, horrible job market. Radiology's competitiveness has been down recently, but it's still reasonably competitive. Internal's the exact opposite - not super competitive, but getting more competitive each year.

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There is a lot of really terrible advice in this thread. No need to discount OPs PhD and research productivity. Yes doing a second degree will definitely help, but it isn't fully necessary, for UofT and Mac for example.

 

All of this discussion is too early OP, take the MCAT, score 35+ and you will have a fighting chance at some of the Ontario schools, and US MD schools. 3.5 GPA is fine for USMD schools, when you have a strong and proven track record with your masters, PhD, and from the sounds of it potentially a post-doc.

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There is a lot of really terrible advice in this thread. No need to discount OPs PhD and research productivity. Yes doing a second degree will definitely help, but it isn't fully necessary, for UofT and Mac for example.

 

All of this discussion is too early OP, take the MCAT, score 35+ and you will have a fighting chance at some of the Ontario schools, and US MD schools. 3.5 GPA is fine for USMD schools, when you have a strong and proven track record with your masters, PhD, and from the sounds of it potentially a post-doc.

 

It's not just grades for USMD schools, it's also pre-reqs. The OP has virtually none, particularly on the chemistry side that those programs usually insist upon.

 

I agree, the OP's PhD and research experience shouldn't be discounted, it's a solid advantage moving forward. What it is not is a guarantee, at any stage of the process. You say the advice so far has been terrible, but I don't think there's much you're saying that's different.

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It's not just grades for USMD schools, it's also pre-reqs. The OP has virtually none, particularly on the chemistry side that those programs usually insist upon.

 

I agree, the OP's PhD and research experience shouldn't be discounted, it's a solid advantage moving forward. What it is not is a guarantee, at any stage of the process. You say the advice so far has been terrible, but I don't think there's much you're saying that's different.

 

Excellent point, I hadn't noticed that. OP you will have to do at least 6-8 undergrad courses (Gen chem sequence, Organic chem sequence, and intro biology sequence(at a minimum)).

 

I was talking to the de-emphasis of the OPs PhD in particular. And definitely it is no where near a guarantee, but it isn't as terrible as people are saying, compared to a pre-med with just an undergraduate degree with a 3.5.

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Quick question: If I were to take a bunch of part-time classes (1-2 per semester) as a non-degree student for the next few years and would be quite useful to what I'm currently doing in my PhD, will that at all be factored into the GPA calculations for Canadian medical schools? I know American schools allow students to do this and many students have been able to raise their GPA's significantly by going this route. In the end, wouldn't I just be better off going this route than applying to US MD schools?

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