Postgrad Training Ireland, Aus, Uk?

[chenoa]

I've read on SDN that going to medical school in the UK may open up chances to complete residency/postgrad training in the UK.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/canadian-considering-uk.1080441/

I am am highly considering applying overseas this cycle (was originally just considering Ireland).
Of course, the risk and the sheer cost are major concerns...

Can anyone speak to the ability for Canadians who graduate from international schools (especially Ireland, UK, Australia) to compete for and secure postgrad training in the country they attended med school in? For me, coming back to Canada would be nice but I realize that it is not a guarantee.

Many thanks in advance.

[advair250]

I've read on SDN that going to medical school in the UK may open up chances to complete residency/postgrad training in the UK.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/canadian-considering-uk.1080441/

I am am highly considering applying overseas this cycle (was originally just considering Ireland).

Of course, the risk and the sheer cost are major concerns...

Can anyone speak to the ability for Canadians who graduate from international schools (especially Ireland, UK, Australia) to compete for and secure postgrad training in the country they attended med school in? For me, coming back to Canada would be nice but I realize that it is not a guarantee.

 

Many thanks in advance.

Getting into a UK school is just as hard as Canada. If you attend school in the UK, you are gauranteed a residency there. Citizenship is not limiting. if you do a FM residency, you can then come and practice in Canada through reciprocity. Not for anything else tho.

 

Ireland, as you may be aware, you will be at the bottom of the barrel as a non citizen for residency,so while not impossible, it is unlikely. Again, if you get into training, you can do FM and then practice in Canada. Ireland has decent matches for offshore in Canada Carms, but declining.

 

Australia, 1% chance of getting residency as a non citizen, don't bother. Too many people going to Australia for med but don't realize they can't realistically do residency there and chances in Canada is low as Oceania.

[chenoa]

Thanks for the input!

[Lopez]

Getting into a UK school is just as hard as Canada. If you attend school in the UK, you are gauranteed a residency there. Citizenship is not limiting. if you do a FM residency, you can then come and practice in Canada through reciprocity. Not for anything else tho.

 

Ireland, as you may be aware, you will be at the bottom of the barrel as a non citizen for residency,so while not impossible, it is unlikely. Again, if you get into training, you can do FM and then practice in Canada. Ireland has decent matches for offshore in Canada Carms, but declining.

 

Australia, 1% chance of getting residency as a non citizen, don't bother. Too many people going to Australia for med but don't realize they can't realistically do residency there and chances in Canada is low as Oceania.

 

Are you sure about this? According to new Foundation Programme rules which come into effect in 2015, you must have the 'right to work' in the UK in order to attain a post-graduate training position, so if you are not a UK or EU citizen, or you don't have indefinite leave to remain in the UK, then you will not be able to do residency in the UK even if you go to med school there. Also if the UK opts out of the EU, then even EU citizens will presumably be unable to obtain UK residency positions. 

Please let me know if you can find information which shows that any of the above is incorrect.

[Edict]

Are you sure about this? According to new Foundation Programme rules which come into effect in 2015, you must have the 'right to work' in the UK in order to attain a post-graduate training position, so if you are not a UK or EU citizen, or you don't have indefinite leave to remain in the UK, then you will not be able to do residency in the UK even if you go to med school there. Also if the UK opts out of the EU, then even EU citizens will presumably be unable to obtain UK residency positions. 

Please let me know if you can find information which shows that any of the above is incorrect.

 

Right to work in the UK only applies if you are not a UK medical school graduate! I'm getting a bit tired of posting the same information over and over again. http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-who-you-are/international-healthcare-professionals/immigration-application-process-the-points-based-system/education-and-training-routes-(tier-1-to-5)/

 

If you use some logic, why are competition ratios for UK medical schools so high? It is because you can stay there post-graduation. 

[uoit101]

Aren't you guaranteed "foundation years" and not residency? From my understanding, to be a general practitioner, you're required to do 3 years of specialist training after the foundation years and that's when the whole citizenship problem comes in i believe. I don't think you can be a practicing doctor without doing the specialist training. 

 

I'd love to know more though. Any input would be appreciated.

 

 

Getting into a UK school is just as hard as Canada. If you attend school in the UK, you are gauranteed a residency there. Citizenship is not limiting. if you do a FM residency, you can then come and practice in Canada through reciprocity. Not for anything else tho.

Ireland, as you may be aware, you will be at the bottom of the barrel as a non citizen for residency,so while not impossible, it is unlikely. Again, if you get into training, you can do FM and then practice in Canada. Ireland has decent matches for offshore in Canada Carms, but declining.

Australia, 1% chance of getting residency as a non citizen, don't bother. Too many people going to Australia for med but don't realize they can't realistically do residency there and chances in Canada is low as Oceania.

 

 

[Lopez]

Right to work in the UK only applies if you are not a UK medical school graduate! I'm getting a bit tired of posting the same information over and over again. http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-who-you-are/international-healthcare-professionals/immigration-application-process-the-points-based-system/education-and-training-routes-(tier-1-to-5)/

 

If you use some logic, why are competition ratios for UK medical schools so high? It is because you can stay there post-graduation. 

 

So are you suggesting that if you are a non-UK/non-EU citizen, and you go to med school in the UK, then you can get sponsored by the UKFPO for a Tier 4 visa and then do the 2 year foundation program? 

And after the foundation program, would such a person be able to transfer to another visa to do specialty training-which visa would that be? 

And is there any indication that the ability of the UKFPO to sponsor these people for Tier 4 visas will change in the near future (considering poliitical changes and also changing UKFPO rules)?

 

And just to clarify, let's say you are a Canadian/UK dual citizen and you go to med school in Ireland. I assume that this person would not only be allowed to complete internship and specialist training in the UK since they have the right to work, but also internship and specialty training in Ireland too?

Furthermore, if the UK leaves the EU in the future, presumably the UK citizen who goes to med school in Ireland would still be able to do Foundation and Specialist training in the UK, but the EU (non-UK) citizen would not?

[Edict]

So are you suggesting that if you are a non-UK/non-EU citizen, and you go to med school in the UK, then you can get sponsored by the UKFPO for a Tier 4 visa and then do the 2 year foundation program? 

And after the foundation program, would such a person be able to transfer to another visa to do specialty training-which visa would that be? 

And is there any indication that the ability of the UKFPO to sponsor these people for Tier 4 visas will change in the near future (considering poliitical changes and also changing UKFPO rules)?

 

And just to clarify, let's say you are a Canadian/UK dual citizen and you go to med school in Ireland. I assume that this person would not only be allowed to complete internship and specialist training in the UK since they have the right to work, but also internship and specialty training in Ireland too?

Furthermore, if the UK leaves the EU in the future, presumably the UK citizen who goes to med school in Ireland would still be able to do Foundation and Specialist training in the UK, but the EU (non-UK) citizen would not?

 

Yes to your first point. You are on a Tier 4 student visa for both medical school and foundation and then you for speciality you get put on a Tier 2 and then after 10 years I think of being in the UK or something you can move to PR and then 1 year later citizenship.

 

Theres no indication this will change in the future, first because international seats are capped, second if they ever changed it they would most definitely grandfather everyone in meaning if you are already in medical school they will still allow you to to stay but from that point on new medical students wouldn't. The Foundation programme is oversubscribed every year but every medical student in the UK is guaranteed a spot in the foundation programme regardless of citizenship, so they will create spots to meet the demand. 

 

If you are a Canada/UK dual citizen and you go to Ireland for med school you can go to UK for speciality and foundation years and you can also stay in Ireland for internship and speciality training. As long as you are an EU citizen you can. 

 

Yes to your last question, if the UK leaves the EU I'm pretty sure that you would still be able to do speciality training in the UK if you had a UK citizenship, again these are pretty big hypotheticals I doubt the UK will leave the EU in the near future, there are complaints but the only party that wants to leave i.e. UKIP does not have much support. 

[Lopez]

Yes to your first point. You are on a Tier 4 student visa for both medical school and foundation and then you for speciality you get put on a Tier 2 and then after 10 years I think of being in the UK or something you can move to PR and then 1 year later citizenship.

 

Theres no indication this will change in the future, first because international seats are capped, second if they ever changed it they would most definitely grandfather everyone in meaning if you are already in medical school they will still allow you to to stay but from that point on new medical students wouldn't. The Foundation programme is oversubscribed every year but every medical student in the UK is guaranteed a spot in the foundation programme regardless of citizenship, so they will create spots to meet the demand. 

 

If you are a Canada/UK dual citizen and you go to Ireland for med school you can go to UK for speciality and foundation years and you can also stay in Ireland for internship and speciality training. As long as you are an EU citizen you can. 

 

Yes to your last question, if the UK leaves the EU I'm pretty sure that you would still be able to do speciality training in the UK if you had a UK citizenship, again these are pretty big hypotheticals I doubt the UK will leave the EU in the near future, there are complaints but the only party that wants to leave i.e. UKIP does not have much support. 

Thanks for the clarification. 

In terms of the UK leaving the EU, I'm not 100% in tune with British politics, but my understanding is that David Cameron has indicated that he would like a national referendum on the EU issue, and he's given some signals that he would like to leave the EU...of course he may simply re-negotiate certain aspects of Britain's relationship with the EU which may ultimately not effect the right of most EU citizens to work in the UK (unless you're from the conditional EU member countries for example).

 

All of these points really do demonstrate how important citizenship can be in terms of creating opportunities for people, and restricting opportunities for others who are not citizens, but such is the nature of nationality itself and the notion of having rights that others don't have in particular countries....It's also interesting to note that unlike Canada, for the Foundation programme/specialist training application process, Britain actually gives preference to its own citizens who do medical school outside the UK, and Canada disadvantages Canadians who do medical school outside of Canada in the residency application process. Totally different mindsets. Of course we could go on and on about this particular issue, but I personally admire Britain's commitment to and recognition of the rights of its own citizens, because UK citizenship supersedes any other consideration such as where you did med school.

[Edict]

Thanks for the clarification. 

In terms of the UK leaving the EU, I'm not 100% in tune with British politics, but my understanding is that David Cameron has indicated that he would like a national referendum on the EU issue, and he's given some signals that he would like to leave the EU...of course he may simply re-negotiate certain aspects of Britain's relationship with the EU which may ultimately not effect the right of most EU citizens to work in the UK (unless you're from the conditional EU member countries for example).

 

All of these points really do demonstrate how important citizenship can be in terms of creating opportunities for people, and restricting opportunities for others who are not citizens, but such is the nature of nationality itself and the notion of having rights that others don't have in particular countries....It's also interesting to note that unlike Canada, for the Foundation programme/specialist training application process, Britain actually gives preference to its own citizens who do medical school outside the UK, and Canada disadvantages Canadians who do medical school outside of Canada in the residency application process. Totally different mindsets. Of course we could go on and on about this particular issue, but I personally admire Britain's commitment to and recognition of the rights of its own citizens, because UK citizenship supersedes any other consideration such as where you did med school.

 

That is true, the UK explains it this way

 

If you are an UK or EU citizen you can enter foundation programme if you graduate from either a UK or EU medical school. If you graduate from a non-EU medical school you have to take a PLAB exam  but after that you can also apply for foundation programme.

 

If you are a non-EU citizen you must have done medical school in the UK to apply.

 

Whatever the case, many more Canadians want to do medicine than Canada needs, so there needs to be a cutoff somewhere. At the same time we are facing record competitiveness for Canadian medical schools we are seeing so many graduates not being able to find a job. So its hard to blame anyone anymore.

[Lopez]

You know how the Atlantic Bridge website says that Irish and EU grads of Irish med schools are given first priorty for internship, followed by non-EU grads of Irish medical schools...I tried looking online on the Irish medical council's website but I couldn't find this exact rule clearly codified in their documents; perhaps I just couldn't find it. I know this is codified in EU law, but I would like to see a website from the Irish government or Irish Medical Council which clearly shows this. Anyone know where this can be found?

[jnuts]

The official document  is a pdf guide put out every year by the HSE.  The HSE (Health Services Executive) is the organization that runs the public healthcare system in Ireland and employs interns.  Unfortunately they tend to take it down pretty fast after the application cycle closes.  Here's the best I could find, an article that states it pretty directly

 

http://www.imt.ie/features-opinion/2014/04/2013-no-more-an-extraordinary-year-for-nchds.html

 

The Irish Medical times is the publication of the Irish Medical Organization (equivalent to the AMA or CMA).  They're usually reliable.

[slim.mechani]

Hi erveryone, 

 

I'm a M.D graduated from a medical school outside EU, and I don't have a EU citezenship. I'm willing to persue my medical specialization in UK in orthopedics surgery. I went through lot of forum and blogs and I wasn't able to find the informations that I need in order to achieve my dream. I was wondering if you could help me; Once I succeed my PLAB exam, which are the next steps that I should follow in order to obtain a training spot in orthopedics in NHS Trust?

 

Greets

[Edict]

 

Hi erveryone, 

 

I'm a M.D graduated from a medical school outside EU, and I don't have a EU citezenship. I'm willing to persue my medical specialization in UK in orthopedics surgery. I went through lot of forum and blogs and I wasn't able to find the informations that I need in order to achieve my dream. I was wondering if you could help me; Once I succeed my PLAB exam, which are the next steps that I should follow in order to obtain a training spot in orthopedics in NHS Trust?

 

Greets

 

Unfortunately you will need EU citizenship. Even if you pass your PLAB you still won't be able to get a speciality spot in orthopedics because you need to have EU citizenship if you graduated from a non-EU or EU medical school.

 

Why don't you pursue specialization in your home country. Things tend to get easier when you are an attending, the only exception is the US where its best to enter at the resident level, however orthopedics in the US is very difficult for an IMG.

[slim.mechani]

Hi Medstart108,

 

thank your for your answer which was very clear . I went through http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-who-you-are/international-healthcare-professionals/immigration-application-process-the-points-based-system/education-and-training-routes-(tier-1-to-5)/, especially about Tier 2 where we can be issued a visa if we succeed to have a certificate of sponsorship from an employer. My question is; couldn't I apply for a residency spot, and if I'll have the chance to get one, ask for such a certificate in order to be issued this type of visa, so I would be able to practice?

 

Looking forward your answer.

[Edict]

Hi Medstart108,

 

thank your for your answer which was very clear . I went through http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-who-you-are/international-healthcare-professionals/immigration-application-process-the-points-based-system/education-and-training-routes-(tier-1-to-5)/, especially about Tier 2 where we can be issued a visa if we succeed to have a certificate of sponsorship from an employer. My question is; couldn't I apply for a residency spot, and if I'll have the chance to get one, ask for such a certificate in order to be issued this type of visa, so I would be able to practice?

 

Looking forward your answer.

Hi slim.mechani

 

The Tier 2 pathway says that "The Tier 2 (General) route allows NHS organisations to sponsor individuals from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) and Switzerland to fill vacancies that cannot be filled by a British or EEA worker."

 

Because Speciality Spots are very competitive, there are always more UK/EU applicants than places available for all specialities none of these residencies will sponsor individuals under Tier 2. Basically for this visa to be available to you there must be no UK/EU worker available to fill that spot, which is unfortunately not the case.

 

In order to apply for speciality spots you need to prove that you are eligible, either you are UK/EU citizen with the certificate to work (i.e. pass PLAB from non-EU med school) or you are from EU medical school or you are non-UK/EU citizen and you did medical school and foundation training in the UK or you need to already have a Tier 1 or 2 visa, but because you don't have one, you need to pass the RLMT or the residency labour market test meaning there has to be absolutely no UK or EU candidates able to take that position for you to be eligible to apply which is impossible of course in this circumstance.

 

I'm sorry this is like this, in the past the UK was open to immigrant physicians but the path was closed down several years ago.

[Lopez]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/foreign-students-could-be-sent-home-before-applying-for-work-visas-to-cut-immigration-9938145.html

 

Thoughts on this?  I don't know all the details of the plans, and its not law yet, but if I were a non-EU citizen studying medicine in Britain right now, I'd be pretty concerned about this.

[Edict]

It sounds way too extreme to happen. Its currently being condemned all around the UK by even Tory ex-ministers. Kicking all students out won't affect current students but if it did happen may affect future students. It sounds so ridiculously extreme because education is the UK's main export these days and if they truly kicked students out the state of UK's universities would really collapse, talent would be lost, it would destroy British research, its last vestige of global influence and is really really unlikely to happen. 

 

This is a good article to read as well, its points are salient in my opinion

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/markets/chris-blackhurst-if-theresa-may-frightens-off-foreign-students-well-all-lose-out-9942051.html

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30575204

 

 

A brief media search is only filled with articles against this proposal citing several senior figures and the comments, normally filled with vitriol against immigrants are mainly against this proposal.

 

In all honesty i'm not too worried about this ever making it past this stage. 

 

For the record, this doesn't actually affect any medical students seeking foundation training as it would only eliminate the 4 month period where uk graduates look for jobs. As medical students go directly from medical school into foundation training they would be applying for visas before they graduate. 

[Lopez]

Any thoughts about this new "Passport To Practice" announced by the GMC? In June 2015 (AFTER the UK General Election!) they will start working out the details of the exam.

 

One thing I've read is that UK med students are complaining about this exam adding too much stress, but they don't have it as bad as the Canadian/American med students who need to write licensing exams while in med school, right?

 

Also, this new exam would replace the PLAB for UK/EU nationals who graduated from med school outside the EU. But apparently if you are an EU national you would be exempt from writing the exam (I've read this somewhere in the BMJ I think...please correct me if I'm wrong). And if this is accurate, I think it would only hold true as long as the UK remains in the EU.

 

And if the UK leaves the EU...then what affect would this have on the process for non-UK citizen EU nationals who graduate from med school in the EU and who apply to the Foundation programme? Would these grads likely just have to write this new exam during their final year of med school and then go through the FP application process being compared on an equal footing to everyone else like the current system is setup?

 

Furthermore, would these non-UK citizen EU nationals who graduate from EU med schools even have the right to work in the UK if the UK leaves the EU....I would think that they would not, but perhaps this would depend on whether the UK remains in the EEA or has some type of modified EU agreement.

 

And presumably if these EU nationals can't enter the Foundation Programme, any UK citizen graduating from an EU med school would still be able to enter the FP since they still would have the right to work in the UK....however, would the UK recognize the EU medical degree of this UK citizen if the UK leaves the EU, as this could damage the mutual recognition of qualifications, or is this recognition of qualification agency dependent (i.e. the NHS and foundation programme can say...we don't care that you have a foreign medical degree from an EU country as long as you have the right to work in the UK...I would think this would be the case since currently you can graduate from a medical school in a non-EU country and get into the foundation programme as long as you have the right to work in the UK and write the PLAB).

 

There are some goods resources for this on the GMC website and the BMJ, and I think in the GMC website you'll find some links to research that they did on this issue.

[Edict]

Any thoughts about this new "Passport To Practice" announced by the GMC? In June 2015 (AFTER the UK General Election!) they will start working out the details of the exam.

 

One thing I've read is that UK med students are complaining about this exam adding too much stress, but they don't have it as bad as the Canadian/American med students who need to write licensing exams while in med school, right?

 

Also, this new exam would replace the PLAB for UK/EU nationals who graduated from med school outside the EU. But apparently if you are an EU national you would be exempt from writing the exam (I've read this somewhere in the BMJ I think...please correct me if I'm wrong). And if this is accurate, I think it would only hold true as long as the UK remains in the EU.

 

And if the UK leaves the EU...then what affect would this have on the process for non-UK citizen EU nationals who graduate from med school in the EU and who apply to the Foundation programme? Would these grads likely just have to write this new exam during their final year of med school and then go through the FP application process being compared on an equal footing to everyone else like the current system is setup?

 

Furthermore, would these non-UK citizen EU nationals who graduate from EU med schools even have the right to work in the UK if the UK leaves the EU....I would think that they would not, but perhaps this would depend on whether the UK remains in the EEA or has some type of modified EU agreement.

 

And presumably if these EU nationals can't enter the Foundation Programme, any UK citizen graduating from an EU med school would still be able to enter the FP since they still would have the right to work in the UK....however, would the UK recognize the EU medical degree of this UK citizen if the UK leaves the EU, as this could damage the mutual recognition of qualifications, or is this recognition of qualification agency dependent (i.e. the NHS and foundation programme can say...we don't care that you have a foreign medical degree from an EU country as long as you have the right to work in the UK...I would think this would be the case since currently you can graduate from a medical school in a non-EU country and get into the foundation programme as long as you have the right to work in the UK and write the PLAB).

 

There are some goods resources for this on the GMC website and the BMJ, and I think in the GMC website you'll find some links to research that they did on this issue.

 

The UK does need a good solid national board exam that everyone takes. Statistically UK trained grads score much better on the MRCP part 1 and 2 (currently the only exam that both uk and foreign grads take) than both EU and Internationally trained UK doctors. 

 

This really is talking in a lot of hypotheticals. I think the chance of the UK actually leaving the EU is still quite small. I'm also a little biased here because most of this information won't affect me and I can understand the concern of someone who would be in this situation but again I think its part of the risk of going abroad. The chance isn't too large, but if it does happen you could very well be part of a small forgotten minority caught up in massive systemic changes. No one will be arguing for that Canadian with EU citizenship who studied in the EU and now can't get into the UK for example. 

 

In that case all I can say is attend a Canadian or American medical school. If circumstances force you to go abroad to places like Ireland, Poland etc, you just have to accept some manner of risk. Remember, even if the UK doesn't accept you anymore that does not mean Ireland won't for example or it doesn't mean that the US or Canada won't etc. 

 

I think what you are looking is that gold star guarantee that if you get into medical school you are going to be a physician. If you want that, get into medical school in Canada or the US, simple as that. If you go abroad no one can guarantee you anything, but if you are a pretty decent student in the top 1/3rd of your class and you work hard at getting extracurriculars, references and electives your chance of becoming a physician is basically a gold star guarantee. 

[Lopez]

The UK does need a good solid national board exam that everyone takes. Statistically UK trained grads score much better on the MRCP part 1 and 2 (currently the only exam that both uk and foreign grads take) than both EU and Internationally trained UK doctors. 

 

This really is talking in a lot of hypotheticals. I think the chance of the UK actually leaving the EU is still quite small. I'm also a little biased here because most of this information won't affect me and I can understand the concern of someone who would be in this situation but again I think its part of the risk of going abroad. The chance isn't too large, but if it does happen you could very well be part of a small forgotten minority caught up in massive systemic changes. No one will be arguing for that Canadian with EU citizenship who studied in the EU and now can't get into the UK for example. 

 

In that case all I can say is attend a Canadian or American medical school. If circumstances force you to go abroad to places like Ireland, Poland etc, you just have to accept some manner of risk. Remember, even if the UK doesn't accept you anymore that does not mean Ireland won't for example or it doesn't mean that the US or Canada won't etc. 

 

I think what you are looking is that gold star guarantee that if you get into medical school you are going to be a physician. If you want that, get into medical school in Canada or the US, simple as that. If you go abroad no one can guarantee you anything, but if you are a pretty decent student in the top 1/3rd of your class and you work hard at getting extracurriculars, references and electives your chance of becoming a physician is basically a gold star guarantee. 

 

Thanks for the perspective. You seem to have a good grasp of things as you are currently in the UK system, even though I am proposing a lot of hypotheticals. 

 

One thing I would just like to probe a bit more is let's say someone is a UK citizen and does med school in the EU. In this case, even if the UK leaves the EU, in your opinion do you think this UK citizen would most likely be able to obtain a foundation programme spot in the UK? I'm just trying to determine if a potential breakdown of the mutual recognition of qualifications agreement would have any impact in this situation or if that would not be relevant, considering that even today you have UK citizens who do med school outside the EU (i.e. no mutual recognition of qualifications as per the EU laws) and yet they can still get foundation spots after passing PLAB tests I believe--and of course PLABs will probably be phased out once the national licensing examinations begin.

[Edict]

Thanks for the perspective. You seem to have a good grasp of things as you are currently in the UK system, even though I am proposing a lot of hypotheticals. 

 

One thing I would just like to probe a bit more is let's say someone is a UK citizen and does med school in the EU. In this case, even if the UK leaves the EU, in your opinion do you think this UK citizen would most likely be able to obtain a foundation programme spot in the UK? I'm just trying to determine if a potential breakdown of the mutual recognition of qualifications agreement would have any impact in this situation or if that would not be relevant, considering that even today you have UK citizens who do med school outside the EU (i.e. no mutual recognition of qualifications as per the EU laws) and yet they can still get foundation spots after passing PLAB tests I believe--and of course PLABs will probably be phased out once the national licensing examinations begin.

 

I think at worst they would be required to write the PLAB or whatever equivalent comes out.

 

I think if lets say the EU and the UK split tomorrow, those currently in the EU would be grandfathered over so they would be allowed to stay. You have to remember as well that a split would not be a sudden thing, there would have to be some negotiations just like in any divorce and this would potentially warn new applicants so the number of people caught off guard should be very small. 

[preMDer]

Any thoughts about this new "Passport To Practice" announced by the GMC? In June 2015 (AFTER the UK General Election!) they will start working out the details of the exam.

 

One thing I've read is that UK med students are complaining about this exam adding too much stress, but they don't have it as bad as the Canadian/American med students who need to write licensing exams while in med school, right?

 

Also, this new exam would replace the PLAB for UK/EU nationals who graduated from med school outside the EU. But apparently if you are an EU national you would be exempt from writing the exam (I've read this somewhere in the BMJ I think...please correct me if I'm wrong). And if this is accurate, I think it would only hold true as long as the UK remains in the EU.

 

And if the UK leaves the EU...then what affect would this have on the process for non-UK citizen EU nationals who graduate from med school in the EU and who apply to the Foundation programme? Would these grads likely just have to write this new exam during their final year of med school and then go through the FP application process being compared on an equal footing to everyone else like the current system is setup?

 

Furthermore, would these non-UK citizen EU nationals who graduate from EU med schools even have the right to work in the UK if the UK leaves the EU....I would think that they would not, but perhaps this would depend on whether the UK remains in the EEA or has some type of modified EU agreement.

 

And presumably if these EU nationals can't enter the Foundation Programme, any UK citizen graduating from an EU med school would still be able to enter the FP since they still would have the right to work in the UK....however, would the UK recognize the EU medical degree of this UK citizen if the UK leaves the EU, as this could damage the mutual recognition of qualifications, or is this recognition of qualification agency dependent (i.e. the NHS and foundation programme can say...we don't care that you have a foreign medical degree from an EU country as long as you have the right to work in the UK...I would think this would be the case since currently you can graduate from a medical school in a non-EU country and get into the foundation programme as long as you have the right to work in the UK and write the PLAB).

 

There are some goods resources for this on the GMC website and the BMJ, and I think in the GMC website you'll find some links to research that they did on this issue.

 

Great points. I'm also a UK citizen, and based on what I've read, it seems that even if Britain leaves the EU, we would still have the right to work in the UK which means we would remain eligible for the UKFP, and I think the Eligibility Office would have a huge decrease in their workload because EU citizens would probably not have the right to work in the UK, and the Eligibility Office would only be evaluating UK citizens who did med school outside the UK. 

[flatjacks]

Now that the election is over, time to brace for the in/out EU referendum!! Recent polls show that people would vote to stay in by a margin of about 10-20%. Hopefully Merkel will be merciful lol.

 

Also, I think in June the GMC is going to determine whether they will move forward with a National Licensing Exam to be written by all those who wish to enter Foundation training, and this would replace PLAB too--but I guess if you do med school outside the EU and you have the right to work in the UK, you'd still have to write the IELTS if  you did clinical rotations/preclinical curriculum in a language other than English.

[nehasinghjk]

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