Med Students, Looking Back To Undergrad

[chiuda]

I often question what I am doing, all the late nights of studying stuff I am not that passionate about just to get all my prerequisites to be applicable in every school in Canada, and wonder if I am so lucky to get in if I would look back and say "total worth all the stress and frusteration" or if I would say "why did I even do that, I could have done so much more with that time". To me nothing is more interesting than medicine and I believe I would enjoy it. The problem I find my self struggling with is I often have an easy way out to a job that has regular hours, makes 100k+ and takes way less work. I am just wondering if any med students or doctors for this matter had thoughts as such and if so how did they approach the situation. I guess I am growing impatient with my undergrad as it really is just stuff like orgo, stats, and physics.

 

any comments and advice is always appreciated.

[youngdad]

All worth it.  Jump the hoops.  

[ArchEnemy]

Aren't you just starting out on 2nd year? I would highly recommend that you try to gain some exposure to the field of medicine. It is definitely not for everyone, but is very fulfilling for those who love it!

[bruhh]

Come on; undergrad isn't that hard. You should head over the med student section and see how much stress and pressure they are dealing with

[thsc]

Come on; undergrad isn't that hard. You should head over the med student section and see how much stress and pressure they are dealing with

That depends on the undergrad. institution and program. So, it's not fair to make over-generalizations. 

[StriveP]

That depends on the undergrad. institution and program. So, it's not fair to make over-generalizations. 

Not even close. It depends on the courses you take and the professor you have.

The Institution doesn't matter to be frank, you will understand this with experience.

And you will probably laugh at this but I could argue there are courses hard at seneca college than UofT depending on the course you take.

[Friendly Magpie]

Not even close. It depends on the courses you take and the professor you have.

The Institution doesn't matter to be frank, you will understand this with experience.

And you will probably laugh at this but I could argue there are courses hard at seneca college than UofT depending on the course you take.

 

This is true. I've been to three different universities. I don't put any stock in the "rankings" in Macleans, but one is in the Medical/Doctoral category, one is in the Comprehensive category, and one is in the Primarily Undergraduate category. All three of them have had harder courses and easier courses and I wouldn't say that one institution is easier than the other.

[Phosphorus]

I'm not a medical student, so take my comment for what it's worth (probably not a lot).

 

I find it hard to believe that anyone who isn't a senior medical student, resident, or physician can accurately answer that question. Who knows what it will be like 10 or so years down the road. If you asked me 10 years ago what my life would be like today or who I would be as a person today, my answer would be dead wrong. I, like you, am concerned about where all of this will end. If I will be happy. If the stress will get to me. If I will regret my decision. I understand that there will be days where I will regret my decision. I also understand that there will be days where I will tell myself that I made the right decision. I have come to the conclusion that a lot of my fears stem from the process rather than the profession itself. You put in a lot of work without much of a guarantee of a reward. It's risky, but I suppose that's life. We, at one point or another, have to pull the trigger and do what we feel is right or what we think will make us happy. For every person that provides a convincing argument for why medicine sucks, another person will have an equally convincing argument for why its one of the greatest professions.

 

I think where you, myself, and many others fall short is that we have no real world work experience. There are other careers that I would consider doing if not medicine (e.g., teaching). Like my current knowledge of medicine, however, my knowledge of the teaching profession is only superficial. My goal is to gain as much experience as possible (however limited it may be) and to trust my instinct. I am currently going through the application process now with the expectation that this is the field for me. However, that's not to say that I am not pragmatic about the situation.

[Arztin]

Undergrad was a bore. Random classes were a bore (plants, worms etc...) I could have gone into law school or dent school a long time ago but it wasn't exactly what I wanted. I would be grossing 100k already if I picked law school.

 

Still very early in my training, but I've had quite a few encounters with real patients now. All I can say that I will for sure love this, and I'm really glad I didn't give up.

 

Then again, I'm at the beginning of my training. So, do take what I said with a grain of salt. (especially because of the crap job market, so a lot of students will inevitably end up in a speciality and/or work location that they don't particularly like).

[carazadie]

As a Med 4 I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I do believe that it will be worthwhile in the end for me. However, it may not be worthwhile for everyone. Much will depend on your personal motivations for pursuing medicine and on what kind of lifestyle you want to have.

 

Just remember that the challenges and frustrations do not end with undergrad. Not by any means. There will be many, many weeks in med school where you will have to study subjects that you don't really care about. You will be required to bust your butt on rotations that might have nothing to do with your chosen specialty. You will sometimes work 60hrs/wk-70hrs/wk, without pay or adequate sleep, and use what little free time remains to study for a difficult exam. On top of that, there is the stress of trying to impress preceptors and organize electives so you can match to your chosen field. I have often wondered if I should have done something "easier". I look back on undergrad as a much simpler and less stressful time in my life (though this is different for everyone).

 

Not trying to scare you off of medicine. There are incredibly awesome experiences that go along with the challenges. Working with patients is difficult, but for me it is also the most rewarding part of the job. Med school opens a lot of doors, and I wouldn't want to do anything else with my life. However, you do have to be quite resilient to get through the tougher times. Med school and residency is an exercise in jumping through hoops. 

 

One thing I have learned from working with patients is that there are happy and unhappy people in every job, every social class, and every walk of life. So much seems to depend on a person's resilience. 

[A-Stark]

Undergrad was a comparatively stress-free period in life when I was pretty free to do whatever I wanted most of the time. Sure, there were classes and studying and writing papers and assignments, but you could take courses in areas of interest and had few responsibilities. 

 

And you could involved in extracurriculars and other activities for your own interest and fun. I know "premeds" often seem to approach "ECs" as exercises in CV padding, but I didn't ponder the medicine route until almost a year into my masters. 

 

Now I go to work as a resident and I have an "adult" life, with all that that implies. Having my own laundry and dishwasher are the priorities, and I have to manage my finances and debt repayment. And spend money on my car and insurance and everything else. 

 

I've noticed a lot of "premeds" seem to regard undergrad as a sort of chore that they need to get through to arrive at the Holy Grail of Med School. Maybe that's because they force themselves to take excessive amounts of organic chem or calculus. I think one nice thing about medicine admissions in Canada is that just about any kind of degree is accepted, and many schools don't even have many (or any) prerequisites. So, really, just enjoy undergrad, pay attention to your marks and all that, get involved with stuff, and have a life. Having a life outside medicine can be a lot harder depending on the specialty and is much more of a balancing act. Don't squander the years when your biggest worry should be arranging your schedule to avoid 8:30 classes. 

[W0lfgang]

It's worth it man. I loved med school and I'm loving residency. Since I got into med school, each year has been better than the last.

[Savac]

Come on; undergrad isn't that hard. You should head over the med student section and see how much stress and pressure they are dealing with

 

What stress?

[bruhh]

What stress?

nothing, Medical school is a breeze.

[Jaybird]

What stress?

 

Oh, this, so much. You're doing what you want to do, on a pass/fail system. Doesn't get any better.

[Leon]

Just like most people have said, I feel it comes down to the individual. Sometimes med is hard, especially during exam time where we are taught 5000 slides in 7 weeks and have an exam straight after. I always find my patient interactions to be hugely uplifting- it's a constant reminder of why I chose this path. Your friends will be moving on with their lives, getting married, having a family etc and chances are that all that will be delayed for you but I think it is important to realize that early on and be well aware of what you are getting into. The career of a physician truly is different from most jobs out there and if your passion towards caring for your patients trumps all else, I think you'll find it hard to regret your choice. Compromises must be made but that is the case for most careers out there. 

 

Comparing with others is likely the source of most people's frustration. The earlier you stop doing that, the better.

[makingfetchhappen]

"To me nothing is more interesting than medicine and I believe I would enjoy it. The problem I find my self struggling with is I often have an easy way out to a job that has regular hours, makes 100k+ and takes way less work."

 

OP if I were in charge I would say your homework is to make a list of these "easy way out" jobs that have "regular hours", "makes $100K+" and are "way less work".

You say "nothing is more interesting than medicine", so find those jobs you are thinking of as an "out" and list them.

If they exist (and that's a big if - what job is $100K and regular hours, even with a difficult path to get in?) are they interesting? If so, then weigh your alternatives. There is no use making yourself miserable wondering if it's worth it to aim for medicine when you don't even have a real alternative to contemplate...

[rmorelan]

I certainly found medical school less stressful than undergrad and way, way upped my ECs in med school as a result. The subjects were built on stuff that I studied before to a degree quite often, there was a pass fail system, the material was more interesting as it was directly something I was going to have to use, and everyone around me was motivated and eager to be there. Now clerkship was different with its higher fixed work schedule, and more responsibilities but it was still a lot of fun.

[T.A.]

I certainly found medical school less stressful than undergrad and way, way upped my ECs in med school as a result. The subjects were built on stuff that I studied before to a degree quite often, there was a pass fail system, the material was more interesting as it was directly something I was going to have to use, and everyone around me was motivated and eager to be there. Now clerkship was different with its higher fixed work schedule, and more responsibilities but it was still a lot of fun.

How is residency compared to ms1/ms2 and ms3?

Its gotta be better because there are no more exams, right?

[rmorelan]

How is residency compared to ms1/ms2 and ms3?

Its gotta be better because there are no more exams, right?

 

No more exams? I have exams all the time

 

about to write the MCCQE part 2. A month ago I did my first radiology 3 hour exam and in Jan I have a national radiology exam to do. Then in march I have another osce and so on. Just finished a simulation test 2 weeks ago as well. Other fields have it even worse.

 

plus more importantly I get tested basically every single day in my two hours of rounds daily. In front of all the residents and a staff doc I have to take cases - and if I don't have a clue that is pretty embarrassing. The images across the week cover everything in radiology so I have to study all radiology fields all the time. One of the joys of preclerkship is you can chose NOT to study for a night. You can also chose not to cover something as deeply if you don't care for the subject. I don't feel I have those options really -  there is always something coming up the next day I don't know as well as I should so I have to study it. By my level you know exactly how little you do know and how much there let to cover. Plus as you learn a bit more the cases then up in difficulty straight through to fifth year. Then you spend 18 months studying your ass off for the licensing exam which is only the "most important exam of your life".

 

I also I read out my cases I do each day twice in front of another staff who corrects me - how they correct me depends on the staff but of course everyone is just trying to help you. I get scored every two weeks through all of residency as well with major evals and meet with the program director on my progress 3 times a year.

 

Not trying to exaggerate here but to be honest I feel vastly more tested now than at any other time in all my education training. Of course on top of all this there is the 80 work weeks that never end (no summer breaks for instance and yeah there is 4 weeks vacation but when you do 6-7 all nighters a month, every month those vacations start to be used up in actually resting ), research needed for fellowships, and trying to survive in an environment that is a lot less supported than medical school (you simply don't have 100+ friends with you that are going through the same thing, could be anywhere in the country, and every resident in a program is together only for one afternoon a week. It isn't cruel but It is a job after all and you work by yourself a lot). Plus making a mistake is much more serious thing, and there are simply things you are supposed to already know no question that if you forget comes off much worse. The stress is much higher. So much higher. 

 

When the residents etc tell you to enjoy years 1 and 2 and to have fun in years 4 they are NOT kidding - and for the love of all things green and grassy ENJOY your 6 weeks off after graduation before residency. Go somewhere and live life. You are not going to have that kind of time for quite some time.

[rmorelan]

How is residency compared to ms1/ms2 and ms3?

Its gotta be better because there are no more exams, right?

 

didn't actually answer the question No, residency for me is objectively worse in any real way you want to measure it - there is less free time (both weekly and in terms of large chunks off), more studying, more stress, less freedom, definitely more overnight shifts, and more responsibilities in general.  Truth is no one expects much from a clerk so gaps or mistakes are forgiven immediately. Compared to first/second year the lifestyle is simply worse, and even third year has very much so easier blocks but many residency programs don't really have an equivalent. Also you are way past any initial boost of energy about the joys of going into medicine hehe.

 

It is not as bad as it once was but it is what everyone tells you it is - a long haul and a lot of work For me truly it is about to begin with the start of radiology solo call next week. I won't be getting a lot of sleep probably for about a year if history holds (we will have 7 call shifts every 4 weeks, usually all nighters as in no sleep at all as we are just not that fast this early on). If you ever wonder why rads is tempted to block a study at 2am it can be because they know they just aren't going to read it anyway - simply no time, which is kind of scary really.  

 

On the up side of course I think it is worth it. It is fun to learn and progressively do more and more as time goes on. There is progression which was harder to experience in medical school (rapid shift between different teams and subjects makes it hard to build things progressively). This is where you finally get to actually be a doctor in a real sense.

 

and like medical school it goes pretty quickly. Already 25% done for me and more and that just fly by.

[goleafsgochris]

I hate to be a broken record, but some of these responses annoy me (I am a resident)

 

Undergrad was harder than med school for me.  I worked often 90h/week studying in undergrad (at U of T)--even doing call on surgery for whole weekends was not as painful as this, atleast once your in med its pretty hard to fail out. 

 

I HATE the opinion that doing other jobs you would be making $$$ by now.  Read the statistics before you state that.  Law school has HORRIFIC job prospects, the average income after U of T law 5 years out is under 80k and many cant get jobs.  Its not like in suits lol they also have worse hours than most residents if they do have jobs.  Finance is also not a magic bullet--some do well but most don't, the idea that you could be easily making 100k if you did this is insane.  Once you are in medicine you are essentially guaranteed to make 160k worst case scenario once youre done.  Zero other careers are like this.

 

***Some parts of course do suck in medicine.  As was mentioned, studying and long hours in areas irrelevant to what you plan on doing is very very frustrating.  Small price to pay though IMO.

[goleafsgochris]

didn't actually answer the question No, residency is objectively worse in any real way you want to measure it - there is less free time (both weekly and in terms of large chunks off), more studying, more stress, less freedom, definitely more overnight shifts, and more responsibilities in general.  Truth is no one expects much from a clerk so gaps or mistakes are forgiven immediately. Compared to first/second year the lifestyle is simply worse, and even third year has very much so easier blocks but many residency programs don't really have an equivalent. Also you are way past any initial boost of energy about the joys of going into medicine hehe.

 

It is not as bad as it once was but it is what everyone tells you it is - a long haul and a lot of work For me truly it is about to begin with the start of radiology solo call next week. I won't be getting a lot of sleep probably for about a year if history holds (we will have 7 call shifts every 4 weeks, usually all nighters as in no sleep at all as we are just not that fast this early on). If you ever wonder why rads is tempted to block a study at 2am it can be because they know they just aren't going to read it anyway - simply no time, which is kind of scary really.  

 

On the up side of course I think it is worth it. It is fun to learn and progressively do more and more as time goes on. There is progression which was harder to experience in medical school (rapid shift between different teams and subjects makes it hard to build things progressively). This is where you finally get to actually be a doctor in a real sense.

 

and like medical school it goes pretty quickly. Already 25% done for me and more and that just fly by.

 

I also (respectfully) disagree with this.  Radiology is a very difficult residency compared to most.  I found residency easier--studying but for a real purpose, less stress because no exams (although more in a way because of responsibility), I definitely have less overnights as a resident.  Rads is of course different, their call might be the most stressful out of any of them as a resident.

[ArchEnemy]

^For comparison, may I ask where did you do your med school?

[rmorelan]

I also (respectfully) disagree with this.  Radiology is a very difficult residency compared to most.  I found residency easier--studying but for a real purpose, less stress because no exams (although more in a way because of responsibility), I definitely have less overnights as a resident.  Rads is of course different, their call might be the most stressful out of any of them as a resident.

 

well that is true - not all residency programs are the same! Always important to remember any biases. Which one are you in? Rads is one of the ones with a lot of call, and continual testing. Probably would be better to break it down a bit (rads of course is a relatively small residency program compared to say family medicine )

 

I know my surgeon friends are telling me they are busier (not sure that would be surprise), and the internal folks at ottawa were describing some rather busy times as well. It would be interesting to see which ones are better and worse etc.

 

I does seem strange to me on some level (more bias) that residency should be easier than medical school. Not sure why actually - on some level that just seems a bit weird (maybe because I am in one of the busier ones).