Canadian/american Premed System Setup For Burnout

[sprite]

just my two cents   

 

if my opinion mattered or i could run a medical school id run it like the queens 6 year program or like the UK system 

[rupchatt]

i definitely agree with this. 

maybe expand it to at least having a certain bsc with certain pre reqs, like biochem, physio anatomy etc, things that are relevant to medicine. If youve done those in undergrad then you can spend more time reviewing and expanding your knowledge in medical school instead of starting from scratch.

Taking two or three years worth of medically relevant subjects does not equal studying for the mcat for a couple of months in the summer. 

 

http://www.ouac.on.ca/statistics/med_app_stats/

 

additionally, having set pre reqs narrows the application pool. instead of having a 4300 applications like mcmaster, you can narrow it down to 2600 applications like ottawa - which actually has pre reqs. I am sure out of 2600 application there is more then enough diversity to go around, and you know these people are generally on the same page. It'd be interesting to see what the application data would be like if ottawa used the mcat, perhaps even less applications. OR atleast use the mcat like western, as a barrier. If you don't know your basic sciences, then c ya, you can take your diversity elsewhere lol. 

 

additionally look at the jump of applications between 2008 and 2009 to queens medicine. i am under the impression that queens used to have pre-reqs but abolished them around that time no? I could be wrong. But what purpose did abolishing pre-reqs serve haha ? 

 

having a 4 year degree prior to medicine is absolutely useless, the whole diversity thing is so over-exaggerated too. Like many said, i want my doc to be a competent physician , not "diverse". Maturity comes with age not finishing a bachelors degree.

Amazing! This is exactly what I wanted to say!

[NLengr]

I got bad news for you guys. Having a biochem or health sciences degree gives you an advantage for the first few months of med school at best. After that it's not useful because you've moved beyond what you learned in undergrad. Sure it might help you in your short course of biochem you do in med school, but it's not going to confer you some magical advantage overall.

 

The vast vast vast vast vast majority of stuff you learn in medical school is brand new to all the students. If biochem or health sciences taught you to be a doctor it would be called medical school.

 

Trust me, proposing that all applicants have to have a limited scope of education focused on biochem or health sciences is foolish and not valuable to the profession or the public. If/when you go through med school, you'll gain the insight to understand this.

[NLengr]

You are also foolish if you think being "diverse" and competent are mutually exclusive.

 

There is likely no correlation at all.

[older]

atleast you dont have deal with the uncertainty of getting accepted and go through years of stress and debt. Once they are in medicine, they have a comfort zone. Also, it is way easier to accepted in the UK compare to US or Canada and its a fact.

 

It is not "far easier". Admission critera are high and interviews  really hard. Also, unlike Canada, you can only apply to 4 universities. And they don't have one standardized MCAT, they use  UKCAT (most), BMAT (Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL)  and GAMSAT (some GEM). These tests  are very different. Try to prepare for  just two of them -  really "easy".  Unlike MCAT, you cannot do it in advance or try 2nd time  - you have only one chance for the admission cycle.  To make it worse, you take BMAT only AFTER you apply to med schools. So if you don't do very well on BMAT, you have no chance to switch your application to UKCAT universities, you're doomed. Tell me this is "easy".

 

But you are right that UK  admission statistics are better than Canada - more than 60% does not get any offers, whcich means that almost 40% gets an offer.  (not sure though whether these are pre-interview or after-interview statistics). And it has  to do with the number of places not with how "easy" admission is.

 

As you pointed out, the advantage of UK (and other EU countries) system is that you don't have deal with the uncertainty of getting accepted and go through years of stress and debt.  Many rejected applicants take a gap year, during which they work on their next-year application and get health-related jobs. Mind you they are only 18-19, and taking year off at this stage of life is not a big deal. Others accept their 5th, non-medical program choice (usually biomed), finish their degree and try graduate route.

 

Overall, UK students are better off than Canadians in their university years, and their education is as good or better.

 

You touched on debt, and this is also so much fairer in EU. Until recently, the tuition in UK was low. It went up to 9,000 pounds couple of years ago, but loan system plus NHS financing is excellent. No predatory loans from OSAP or banks. Repayment depends on your earnings.

[older]

i

 

 having a 4 year degree prior to medicine is absolutely useless, the whole diversity thing is so over-exaggerated too. Like many said, i want my doc to be a competent physician , not "diverse". Maturity comes with age not finishing a bachelors degree.

 

You hit the nail on the head! This is what this discussion is about - not whether it is better to study dance or buisness.  Everything you learn in life is somewhat useful, but the point is that undergard degree prior to Medicine is costly, stresful, and absolutely unnecessary

[ralk]

You hit the nail on the head! This is what this discussion is about - not whether it is better to study dance or buisness.  Everything you learn in life is somewhat useful, but the point is that undergard degree prior to Medicine is costly, stresful, and absolutely unnecessary

 

Not doing undergrad wouldn't make the stress associated with medicine go away. It would shift part of it to high school students who would now have to fight for medical school spots, and the rest of it to the extra years necessary for medical school and residency. For all the talk about how stressful undergrad is - and I'm not saying it isn't - it's not like medical school and residency, not to mention working afterwards, are low-stress times. I might not have to worry about getting into medical school anymore, but now I'm working to get a good residency program, to develop a good career, and to hopefully do a decent job as a physician once I am ultimately responsible for patients' lives. Recent changes to medical school's organization have helped reduce stress at this level, particularly the pass/fail nature of our programs, but intrinsically the stakes don't go down this side of the admissions process; for most of us, they go up.

 

As for diversity, the argument isn't that studying dance or business makes someone a better individual physician than studying biochemistry or neuroscience, but that having multiple backgrounds represented makes the profession stronger and more adaptable to a variety of problems. When everyone has the same or similar training, they tend to look upon the world in a similar way. That's great for consistency, but it also means that as a whole, they'll be blind to certain mistakes and inefficiencies. Having a physician with a background in computer science can help identify problems with EMRs and develop solutions. A physician who used to dance isn't valuable because they'll suddenly break out into a performance on the wards (not that I'm opposed to that), but because the approach they took to mastering a dance number might have some applicability to those times in medicine where a physician has to perform a set of tasks in a specific sequence - you know, like a surgery. We've already started to use methods from other industries in health care - aviation is one of the more prominent examples - and having some non-traditional medical students allows for more of this sort of cross-industry transplantation of perspectives on issues. Diversity, by definition, is about collective competence, not individual competence as you and other posters here have implied.

[rupchatt]

We live in Canada so I would have to accept this system. I feel there is no point complaining. But to be honest, under the UK system, admission to medical school is way easier.

[coastalslacker]

Well that's what we need, isn't it? 

 

We just need it to be easier to get into medical school! 

 

Good solution.  What other world problems can we solve?

[sprite]

hmm good points, but I still think there need to be more pre-reqs for med school if its not going to be switched to a different model (which it wont)

 

I still think the UK model of medicine makes more sense. get in right of the bat and pay money to study relevant things that you'll use everyday for the rest of your life. not sure how in anyway a 4th year course in hydrogeology will ever be relevant to me when i finish this exam haha. Unless i find a geyser under my house.

 

as for diversity im still "meh" about it. I graduated the royal conservatory of music in piano and it has not come in handy in anyway academically except teaching little kids how to play for some quick cash in the summer. If it didn't really carry over in undergrad i am not sure how it will carry over to medicine. and being good at piano does not mean your going to be a surgeon. 

[Edict]

The main problem with Canada isn't actually the 4+4 vs 5/6 year programs, its the fact that in Ontario where most of people on this forum i'm guessing are from, the acceptance rate to medical school is 20%, whereas in the UK and the US it is 40%. Its a problem with oversupply, too many people want to become doctors in Canada. I have my theories but its not necessarily pc.

 

You don't really see people complain about 4+4 in the US and you almost never see anyone complain about 5/6 in the UK, but the reason there are complaints is because you basically need to be perfect to get into a Canadian medical school.

 

I'm sure if a 3.6+ GPA and a 30+ MCAT could get you into medical school this thread wouldn't exist. The whole burnout is because people are killing themselves with workload with ECs just to outcompete each other and its a positive feedback cycle. The harder people work the harder others work to stay ahead.

 

On top of that we are approaching a peak in the number of university students in Canada, the second wave of the baby boom. Making everything harder.

[StriveP]

The main problem with Canada isn't actually the 4+4 vs 5/6 year programs, its the fact that in Ontario where most of people on this forum i'm guessing are from, the acceptance rate to medical school is 20%, whereas in the UK and the US it is 40%. Its a problem with oversupply, too many people want to become doctors in Canada. I have my theories but its not necessarily pc.

 

You don't really see people complain about 4+4 in the US and you almost never see anyone complain about 5/6 in the UK, but the reason there are complaints is because you basically need to be perfect to get into a Canadian medical school.

 

I'm sure if a 3.6+ GPA and a 30+ MCAT could get you into medical school this thread wouldn't exist. The whole burnout is because people are killing themselves with workload with ECs just to outcompete each other and its a positive feedback cycle. The harder people work the harder others work to stay ahead.

 

On top of that we are approaching a peak in the number of university students in Canada, the second wave of the baby boom. Making everything harder.

 

So true. The other thing is it's not going to get any better. UofT class of 258 students this year had a GPA of 3.94. That's higher than ANY school in North America. And that trend is with most other schools in Ontario. Next year it may even go to 3.96 at the rate its going right now! Face it, to get into a Canadian school you need either 2 things: An insane GPA with mediocre MCAT scores or Very high VR + decent MCAT score with a 3.7+ GPA which is still pretty high relative to the US. The fact that Ontario doesn't reserve 90% of its seats to their own provincial candidates doesn't help out at all.

[sprite]

So true. The other thing is it's not going to get any better. UofT class of 258 students this year had a GPA of 3.94. That's higher than ANY school in North America. And that trend is with most other schools in Ontario. Next year it may even go to 3.96 at the rate its going right now! Face it, to get into a Canadian school you need either 2 things: An insane GPA with mediocre MCAT scores or Very high VR + decent MCAT score with a 3.7+ GPA which is still pretty high relative to the US. The fact that Ontario doesn't reserve 90% of its seats to their own provincial candidates doesn't help out at all.

 

So true. The other thing is it's not going to get any better. UofT class of 258 students this year had a GPA of 3.94. That's higher than ANY school in North America. And that trend is with most other schools in Ontario. Next year it may even go to 3.96 at the rate its going right now! Face it, to get into a Canadian school you need either 2 things: An insane GPA with mediocre MCAT scores or Very high VR + decent MCAT score with a 3.7+ GPA which is still pretty high relative to the US. The fact that Ontario doesn't reserve 90% of its seats to their own provincial candidates doesn't help out at all.

 

Agreed. Not fair to us in Ontario.

[Edict]

Agreed. Not fair to us in Ontario.

 

If you are from the GTA or aren't billingual it gets even harder as those in the southwest and northern ontario will be able to fall under NOSM or Western's SWOMEN.

[StriveP]

If you are from the GTA or aren't billingual it gets even harder as those in the southwest and northern ontario will be able to fall under NOSM or Western's SWOMEN.

Exactly and that's pretty much most applicants.

[KellyClarkson]

So true. The other thing is it's not going to get any better. UofT class of 258 students this year had a GPA of 3.94. That's higher than ANY school in North America. And that trend is with most other schools in Ontario. Next year it may even go to 3.96 at the rate its going right now! Face it, to get into a Canadian school you need either 2 things: An insane GPA with mediocre MCAT scores or Very high VR + decent MCAT score with a 3.7+ GPA which is still pretty high relative to the US. The fact that Ontario doesn't reserve 90% of its seats to their own provincial candidates doesn't help out at all.

Important to remember that 3.94 is a wGPA (for the majority of the class). The cGPA for the class would probably be in the 3.8s.

[A-Stark]

Agreed. Not fair to us in Ontario.

 

Tears. 

[Birdy]

Tears.

 

I think I can see sarcasm dripping from that post.

 

 

 

Agreed. Not fair to us in Ontario.

Why do you think the med school application process should be "fair" to applicants from Ontario? I'm rather of the opinion that the need of the people of Canada for better physician distribution is the most important factor here...

[A-Stark]

I think I can see sarcasm dripping from that post.

 

 

 

Why do you think the med school application process should be "fair" to applicants from Ontario? I'm rather of the opinion that the need of the people of Canada for better physician distribution is the most important factor here...

 

 

I admit it was not subtle. 

 

Of course, they'll then tell us that *of course* they'd agree to practice in Clarenville or Twilingate if only MUN would treat them "equally" to NL applicants. 

 

I don't think Ontario people - perhaps especially those from the "GTA" - understand that many from elsewhere in the country want to stay "home" and what that means. The distribution of medical training positions around the country is controlled by provincial governments that fund them with local objectives in mind. They are not - and will not - be in the business of designing policy to suit the aspirations of applicants in other provinces (except where said provinces have made specific arrangements to do so, as NB and PEI have with Dal and MUN). 

 

As has been pointed out, there's no shortage of applicants from Toronto and area. I'd invite proponents of "protecting" more seats for Ontario (?Toronto) applicants to show that UofT in particular is actually admitting an "excessive" number of non-Ontario applicants. A cursory look at the entering class in 2014 shows 52 students of 259 as having graduated from schools outside Ontario. I have my doubts, though, that all (or many of) those McGill grads are actually from Quebec. I'd guess that about 80% or more of those 259 are from Ontario, though again I'd happily consider evidence to the contrary. 

[older]

We live in Canada so I would have to accept this system. I feel there is no point complaining. But to be honest, under the UK system, admission to medical school is way easier.

 

Yeah right.

There are more places in med schools in UK, but way more applicants. Just compare.

 

Don’t have data for all of Canada, but in Ontario, OUAC  admission stats are as follows:

2013:  5,982 applications, 947 registered (6.31 applications per place)

2014: 6,593 applications, 954 registered (6.91 applications per place)

individual schools, see  http://www.ouac.on.ca/statistics/med_app_stats/

 

In UK, 2013:  67,084 applicants, 6,576 places (10,72 applications per place). It's harder to get to any of the med schools in UK.

 

Individual med schools:

 

Medical School

Last Updated

Applications

Places

Applications:Place

Aberdeen

2013 entry

2301

168

13.7

Barts and The London

2013 entry

2370

276

8.6

Birmingham

2013 entry

2499

334

7.5

Brighton and Sussex

2012 entry

2514

138

18.2

Bristol

2013 entry

3840

222

17.3

Cambridge

2013 entry

1535

272

5.6

Cardiff

2014 entry

2911

309

9.4

Dundee

2012 entry

1794

134

13.4

Durham

2013 entry

641

99

6.5

East Anglia

2013 entry

1392

142

9.8

Edinburgh

2013 entry

2863

207

13.8

Exeter

2013 entry

1792

130

13.8

Glasgow

2013 entry

1759

228

7.7

Hull York

2012 entry

1093

140

7.8

Imperial

2013 entry

2256

277

8.1

Keele

2013 entry

2016

129

15.6

King's College London

2013 entry

2978

320

9.3

Lancaster

2013 entry

551

54

10.2

Leeds

2013 entry

3515

238

14.8

Leicester

2013 entry

2470

162

15.2

Liverpool

2013 entry

3091

267

11.6

Manchester

2013 entry

2058

365

5.6

Newcastle

2013 entry

2151

219

9.8

Nottingham

2013 entry

2762

240

11.5

Oxford

2014 entry

1431

150

9.5

Plymouth

2013 entry

1022

86

11.9

Queen's Belfast

2013 entry

982

262

3.7

Sheffield

2013 entry

2873

237

12.1

Southampton

2012 entry

3066

246

12.5

St. Andrews

2013 entry

1037

98

10.6

St Georges

2013 entry

1109

105

10.6

UCL

2013 entry

2412

322

7.5

[rmorelan]

I think I can see sarcasm dripping from that post.

Why do you think the med school application process should be "fair" to applicants from Ontario? I'm rather of the opinion that the need of the people of Canada for better physician distribution is the most important factor here...

It isn't fair - I mean by definition people with the same "merits" - mcat, gpa, ec etc etc have different rates of acceptance depending on the language they speak, the place they were born or grew up.... Things we usually consider to be not valid reasons in Canada to base a decision. You cannot I feel argue the system is fair.

 

So it isn't fair but this is Canada where education is has a socialized component, and in any socialized system you are going to have resource allocations to benefit the society over the individual, particular when resources are scarce. The needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few and all that Their needs trump particular student's needs.

 

No perfect answers in this real world - the question is not whether it is fair but whether it is appropriate.

[Edict]

Yeah right.

There are more places in med schools in UK, but way more applicants. Just compare.

 

Don’t have data for all of Canada, but in Ontario, OUAC  admission stats are as follows:

2013:  5,982 applications, 947 registered (6.31 applications per place)

2014: 6,593 applications, 954 registered (6.91 applications per place)

individual schools, see  http://www.ouac.on.ca/statistics/med_app_stats/

 

In UK, 2013:  67,084 applicants, 6,576 places (10,72 applications per place). It's harder to get to any of the med schools in UK.

 

 

Divide that applications number by 4 and you have your number. In the UK you are limited to applying to a maximum of 4 medical schools. There is absolutely no way 67k individuals applied in a year.

[Edict]

Wouldn't an option be to have increased compensation for those working in rural areas? In the US doctors workin rural make nearly twice as much as those working in NYC and it makes a difference. Another option of course would be to implement the use of NPs who can help family doctors in rural areas see more patients, a very good option in my opinion. Anyways, considering that its mainly people from Ontario and the GTA that are the ones discriminated against, I think their say is a bit more important than those originally not from Ontario. Its easy to be in favour of the current system when you are benefitting from it.

 

The way I see it, Ontarians pay taxes to fund our medical schools, why should we not have quotas for our own medical schools. We do have plenty of applicants eager to fill medical school spots so we should look at talent closer to home first, especially when other provinces are doing the same. Besides the arguments in favour of the current system is that people from GTA won't practice in rural areas which is a blatent stereotype, as if people from Halifax will and how about those from Halifax who want to practice in Toronto and those from Toronto who want to practice, rural? Its location based discrimination. This argument would never be accepted if the issue was racial for example.

 

This is similar to a tariff issue, if one country is putting a tariff on goods from another country, it would be sensible if the other country decided to place tariffs of their own. Free trade would be ideal, but if the other provinces aren't playing ball, why should you?

 

This argument won't ever end, its similar to the argument for and against affirmative action in the US. Most likely the status quota will stay the same and unfortunate for those born and raised in the GTA and Ontario.

[mrewmrew]

For UK vs. Canada (specifically Ontario) stats, I think it's important to consider the amount of competitive applicants as opposed to just the raw total amount of applicants. One common complaint in Ontario is that there are tons of extremely qualified applicants every year who get rejected, often without even an interview, simply due to limited spots. These applicants would likely have absolutely no problem getting into a North American MD school if they were residents of another province, or US citizens.

 

Out of the 67,000 UK applicants, how many are truly competitive? Not too sure how the UK high school -> university system works... but if there is truly 67000 applicants to med school per year, which is kind of hard to believe, I think it's safe to assume that a huge chunk of those high school applicants are either not competitive or do not have medical school as their first choice (unlike the vast majority of Canadian med applicants)... perhaps they applied to a variety of other programs in addition to meds (ie. law, optometry, dent, vet, business, arts, engineering).

[Edict]

For UK vs. Canada (specifically Ontario) stats, I think it's important to consider the amount of competitive applicants as opposed to just the raw total amount of applicants. One common complaint in Ontario is that there are tons of extremely qualified applicants every year who get rejected, often without even an interview, simply due to limited spots. These applicants would likely have absolutely no problem getting into a North American MD school if they were residents of another province, or US citizens.

 

Out of the 67,000 UK applicants, how many are truly competitive? Not too sure how the UK high school -> university system works... but if there is 67000 applicants to med school per year I think it's safe to assume that a huge chunk of those high school applicants are either not competitive or do not have medical school as their first choice (unlike the vast majority of Canadian med applicants)... perhaps they applied to a variety of other programs in addition to meds (ie. law, optometry, dent, vet, business, arts, engineering).

 

They are competitive, nobody in the UK applies to medicine unless they have the required grades. In the UK they go to college similar to CEGEP in Quebec, so students are generally at the 1st year university level when they apply. The real issue is the 67000 number, it definitely is not the number of applicants but the number of applications, if you divide it by 4 you get the real number of applicants, which fits will with the 40% acceptance rate I described earlier.