Where To Do Extra Undergrad Year For Highest Possible Grades?

[positivetension]

Hey guys, as I've indicated in other posts I plan to do another year of undergrad to bring up my uGPA, and there is not much tying me to a specific school; I don't mind going almost anywhere (or even doing it online). I would prefer to stay in Toronto all else being equal, but getting as close to a 4.0 as possible is my highest priority. To me, there is some truth to the commonly-held belief that U of T is "harder", so I'm thinking about going to a smaller school that is less saturated with pre-meds. That said, I'm also motivated by rigour and don't want to take a version of a class that is significantly "dumbed down" (if that even exists at other Canadian universities; I can't compare first-hand), since this might ironically result in a lower grade as well. Does anyone have recommendations for a school that has solid, rigorous classes but a "less intense" student body? Additionally, do you have any recommendations for how to pick courses and what to keep in mind to get the highest grades possible? Thank you! This is a unique situation in that I don't need to take courses to satisfy degree requirements, so I'm just trying to optimize my performance.

[RichardDegrasseSagan]

My recommendation is to take some of the med-related courses at UofT. They are larger classes so you can get in as a non-degree, granted that you sign up as soon as priority is dropped.

• ANA300 - full year anatomy: very challenging but very fair (some people have gotten 100%), very interesting and very relevant
• PSL201 - full year human physiology; very interesting, relatively low workload yet high yield, very relevant and very fair
• ANA301 - Half year embryology; very interesting, relevant, challenging and fair
• BIOC17 - half year microbiology at UT Scarborough (very interesting, difficult and fair)
• BIOC39 - half year physical + online option immunology at UT Scarborough (very interesting, medium difficulty and fair)

 

In addition, there are a variety of online courses you can take at UTSC. However, I do want to challenge your notion of "taking an easy course load." How are you going to know whether or not you're cut out for the rigors of medicine if you're not willing to challenge yourself and conquer those challenges? I've seen many people fall into the trap of thinking that medicine is the end of the journey, and that once you get there, you will magically become happy. Far from it. You are likely to face challenges that are much harder than the ones you currently face. I don't mean to be demeaning at all, because I've gone through what you went through. I am just giving you insight into how I approached your situation. I felt that if I could overcome the challenges of entrance by taking a tougher courseload at UofT, I'd be well prepared for the challenges of medicine. Good luck in your decision

[cookiemonster99]

I really have to agree with richarddegrassesagan. You want to get a 4.0 and you don't want a rigorous program at the same time not too "dumb" down and a less "pre-med" oriented envnrionment. Forgive me for being blunt but I think you're trying to cut corners to get into professional school. I get that there are courses that you want to avoid but nevertheless there are people who do well in any courses that are thrown at them. As richarddegrassesagan said professional school is intense. If you maka habit of cutting corners you will pay the price later on. I.e 2 students dropped out last year from Uft

 

http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/80871-2nd-year-transfers-in-dental-school/

 

 

I think you should take courses that will help you later on in professional school so something more medically related such as anatomy physiology pharmacology pathology etc. Also at the same time it's not possible to take these courses at an undergrad level without having people who are also potential applicants in them.

[positivetension]

It's not a question of "cutting corners", it's a question of maximizing my chances of getting in. I already know I can handle the workload; I took many extremely challenging courses in undergrad and still did well, the only reason my current undergraduate record isn't good enough for some schools is because of arbitrary rules (not including summer courses when several of my semesters were full-time summer semesters which were just as hard as fall/winter ones), so I'm playing by their arbitrary rules.

[JohnGrisham]

I really have to agree with richarddegrassesagan. You want to get a 4.0 and you don't want a rigorous program at the same time not too "dumb" down and a less "pre-med" oriented envnrionment. Forgive me for being blunt but I think you're trying to cut corners to get into professional school. I get that there are courses that you want to avoid but nevertheless there are people who do well in any courses that are thrown at them. As richarddegrassesagan said professional school is intense. If you maka habit of cutting corners you will pay the price later on. I.e 2 students dropped out last year from Uft

 

http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/80871-2nd-year-transfers-in-dental-school/

 

 

I think you should take courses that will help you later on in professional school so something more medically related such as anatomy physiology pharmacology pathology etc. Also at the same time it's not possible to take these courses at an undergrad level without having people who are also potential applicants in them.

What are you talking about? The rigour and relevance of your undergrad doesn't matter. You don't need a 4.0 to do well in medical school, nor do you need a 4.0 in a tough program. (not directed at you) People on this forum need to stop thinking that people with less than 4.0 aren't cut out or prepared for professional school. The only reason you need a 3.8+ to be anywhere near competitive is because of supply and demand. 

 

In Canada, medical school admissions is a numbers game - and if you don't think most people are doing what they can to get the highest GPA to get past the filter process, then you're very mistaken lol. I admit, I was naive about this as well in my undergrad. While other friends were taking notoriously easy courses with high averages as electives, to supplement their hard course-loads - i took interesting but tough electives. 

 

Additionally your confounding the effects of going through a tough undergrad program with the actual program itself. Yes you learn good skills during tough programs, but that won't matter if you don't get a high enough GPA to get into professional school. On the flip side you can do an "easier" program - but its still university, and you'll still be able to get the skills necessary to do well in professional school.

 

Get a grip before calling out people like that.

 

 

[JohnGrisham]

I really have to agree with richarddegrassesagan. You want to get a 4.0 and you don't want a rigorous program at the same time not too "dumb" down and a less "pre-med" oriented envnrionment. Forgive me for being blunt but I think you're trying to cut corners to get into professional school. I get that there are courses that you want to avoid but nevertheless there are people who do well in any courses that are thrown at them. As richarddegrassesagan said professional school is intense. If you maka habit of cutting corners you will pay the price later on. I.e 2 students dropped out last year from Uft

 

http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/80871-2nd-year-transfers-in-dental-school/

 

 

I think you should take courses that will help you later on in professional school so something more medically related such as anatomy physiology pharmacology pathology etc. Also at the same time it's not possible to take these courses at an undergrad level without having people who are also potential applicants in them.

My final comment would be, that while yes there is some benefit of taking some undergrad courses related to medical school - it is not necessary at all outside of pre-reqs. That is what professional school is for, to teach you what you need to know for that field. Take courses that will help in other areas (not a good writer? take a technical writing course under the engineering department. Not good at accounting and business topics? take some commerce courses in small business management etc etc). Taking an undergrad anatomy class might help for the first week of medical school, but after that it won't matter much.

[RichardDegrasseSagan]

My final comment would be, that while yes there is some benefit of taking some undergrad courses related to medical school - it is not necessary at all outside of pre-reqs. That is what professional school is for, to teach you what you need to know for that field. Take courses that will help in other areas (not a good writer? take a technical writing course under the engineering department. Not good at accounting and business topics? take some commerce courses in small business management etc etc). Taking an undergrad anatomy class might help for the first week of medical school, but after that it won't matter much.

 

I disagree with the notion that "medical school is going to teach you everything," There simply isn't enough time to learn everything thrown at you in those 2 pre-clinical years without a solid foundation. Or atleast learning it really well without a ridiculous amount of stress. I think it's silly to be touting the benefits of technical writing or business courses and be so vehemently dismissive about the benefits of pre-medical courses. Take ANA300 for example. It is a very rigorous and comprehensive course. Attaining this pre-requisitive knowledge early not only improves your consolidation of the material when you re-learn it in medicine, but gives you a lot more time for other things during medical school (residency planning, research, social aspects of your life etc.). Plus, you can't critically think about things if you don't know them well.

 

My advice is that if you're doing extra undergraduate work, plan it so that it will make your life easier during medicine and enable you to be a better physician. We are after all applying to become doctors, not businessmen or engineers. But that's not to say that (MEDICAL) technical writing and business savvy aren't important secondary skills (if you choose to venture into the business aspect of medicine or research etc.). 

[bbsare]

I disagree with the notion that "medical school is going to teach you everything," There simply isn't enough time to learn everything thrown at you in those 2 pre-clinical years without a solid foundation. Or atleast learning it really well without a ridiculous amount of stress. I think it's silly to be touting the benefits of technical writing or business courses and be so vehemently dismissive about the benefits of pre-medical courses. Take ANA300 for example. It is a very rigorous and comprehensive course. Attaining this pre-requisitive knowledge early not only improves your consolidation of the material when you re-learn it in medicine, but gives you a lot more time for other things during medical school (residency planning, research, social aspects of your life etc.). Plus, you can't critically think about things if you don't know them well.

 

My advice is that if you're doing extra undergraduate work, plan it so that it will make your life easier during medicine and enable you to be a better physician. We are after all applying to become doctors, not businessmen or engineers. But that's not to say that (MEDICAL) technical writing and business savvy aren't important secondary skills (if you choose to venture into the business aspect of medicine or research etc.). 

 

You can disagree with ubc2012's notion that medical school will teach you everything, but if med schools believed that an undergraduate course in anatomy would make a significant difference in terms of preparedness,  they would make it a prerequisite. Critical thinking skills can be developed through various disciplines, and not only through previous exposure as you claim. Believe it or not, people have other interests outside of medicine, and OP should consider exploring things he finds interesting, rather than trying to over prepare. He's in for 4 years of medical school, he does not need to get a head start on the course load. He should use the time to explore interests at the university level that he'll never get the chance to again...if that's anatomy, so be it. If not, so be it as well.

[JohnGrisham]

You can disagree with ubc2012's notion that medical school will teach you everything, but if med schools believed that an undergraduate course in anatomy would make a significant difference in terms of preparedness,  they would make it a prerequisite. Critical thinking skills can be developed through various disciplines, and not only through previous exposure as you claim. Believe it or not, people have other interests outside of medicine, and OP should consider exploring things he finds interesting, rather than trying to over prepare. He's in for 4 years of medical school, he does not need to get a head start on the course load. He should use the time to explore interests at the university level that he'll never get the chance to again...if that's anatomy, so be it. If not, so be it as well.

Boom this. 

[bruhh]

yess I'm so down to take killer science courses and have a <3.8 to jeapordize my chances to get into med school, at least I can say I was "preparing" myself for med school... But wait, what's the point if it's all a numbers game to get in? yep, no point. 

 

The MCAT is there to somewhat even out the situation, if you can do anything to maintain a >3.9 GPA (and, I don't care if you're in mac health sci - in fact I'm pretty bummed I'm not there myself haha) and still be able to get a 30+ on the MCAT, I'm pretty sure you're well-prepared. 

[RichardDegrasseSagan]

That sounds great in principle, but I am assuming OP is limited due to first year pre-reqs. OPs not in their first year. If they were, I'd be agreeing with you. They're doing this exclusively to get into medicine. As suggested, it might be good to take a course or two out of the life sciences (granted that you feel comfortable doing so).

 

But I say for 7k, you should really be getting exposure to upper level medical content, challenge yourself with it, and get in touch with great professors who you might be interested in doing research with.

 

But at this point, I feel like I am projecting my thoughts way too much on OP. I just caution everyone to be careful in knowing what they're getting themselves into. My brother was one of the ones that unfortunately didn't. I largely attribute his substance abuse issues largely to this. Additionally, one of my brothers' friends at UTmed ended up committing suicide while in his third year. I can only speculate on the reason behind the suicide, but from what I've heard, stress may have been a large contributor. It's why I always encourage premeds to challenge themselves with a rigorous course load (which ironically are courses you can score the highest in).

[cookiemonster99]

It's not a question of "cutting corners", it's a question of maximizing my chances of getting in. I already know I can handle the workload; I took many extremely challenging courses in undergrad and still did well, the only reason my current undergraduate record isn't good enough for some schools is because of arbitrary rules (not including summer courses when several of my semesters were full-time summer semesters which were just as hard as fall/winter ones), so I'm playing by their arbitrary rules.

 

That's fine if you just want to maximize your chances. It just came off that way in your posts that you seem like to want to cut corners. If that's not the case then any courses at any university should work as long as you work just as hard in undergrad

 

 

What are you talking about? The rigour and relevance of your undergrad doesn't matter. You don't need a 4.0 to do well in medical school, nor do you need a 4.0 in a tough program. (not directed at you) People on this forum need to stop thinking that people with less than 4.0 aren't cut out or prepared for professional school. The only reason you need a 3.8+ to be anywhere near competitive is because of supply and demand. 

 

In Canada, medical school admissions is a numbers game - and if you don't think most people are doing what they can to get the highest GPA to get past the filter process, then you're very mistaken lol. I admit, I was naive about this as well in my undergrad. While other friends were taking notoriously easy courses with high averages as electives, to supplement their hard course-loads - i took interesting but tough electives. 

 

Additionally your confounding the effects of going through a tough undergrad program with the actual program itself. Yes you learn good skills during tough programs, but that won't matter if you don't get a high enough GPA to get into professional school. On the flip side you can do an "easier" program - but its still university, and you'll still be able to get the skills necessary to do well in professional school.

 

Get a grip before calling out people like that.

 

 

 

Never did I say you need a 4.0 to do well in medical school. I'm simply saying that if someone cuts corners they'll be paying the price later. 

 

 

 

My final comment would be, that while yes there is some benefit of taking some undergrad courses related to medical school - it is not necessary at all outside of pre-reqs. That is what professional school is for, to teach you what you need to know for that field. Take courses that will help in other areas (not a good writer? take a technical writing course under the engineering department. Not good at accounting and business topics? take some commerce courses in small business management etc etc). Taking an undergrad anatomy class might help for the first week of medical school, but after that it won't matter much.

 

I don't know for anyone else but I'm pretty sure my anatomy class in dental school isn't just a week. 

I understand that you don't need to take medically related courses in undergrad which is why it was only a suggestion. 

Learning anatomy, histo, patho, pharm, etc a second time after you've taken it in undergrad makes a HUGE difference later on. 

Speaking to some of my friends in medical school some of them wish they've taken courses that they skipped out on because they feared it would bring their GPA down, now they're paying the price for it. 

 

You can disagree with ubc2012's notion that medical school will teach you everything, but if med schools believed that an undergraduate course in anatomy would make a significant difference in terms of preparedness,  they would make it a prerequisite. Critical thinking skills can be developed through various disciplines, and not only through previous exposure as you claim. Believe it or not, people have other interests outside of medicine, and OP should consider exploring things he finds interesting, rather than trying to over prepare. He's in for 4 years of medical school, he does not need to get a head start on the course load. He should use the time to explore interests at the university level that he'll never get the chance to again...if that's anatomy, so be it. If not, so be it as well.

 

It does.........which is why some school in the states put up recommended courses other than the chemistry, biology, and physics pre-reqs. 

Learning those courses a second time and seeing the same material a second time makes a HUGE difference period

[JohnGrisham]

That's fine if you just want to maximize your chances. It just came off that way in your posts that you seem like to want to cut corners. If that's not the case then any courses at any university should work as long as you work just as hard in undergrad

 

 

 

Never did I say you need a 4.0 to do well in medical school. I'm simply saying that if someone cuts corners they'll be paying the price later. 

 

 

 

 

I don't know for anyone else but I'm pretty sure my anatomy class in dental school isn't just a week. 

I understand that you don't need to take medically related courses in undergrad which is why it was only a suggestion. 

Learning anatomy, histo, patho, pharm, etc a second time after you've taken it in undergrad makes a HUGE difference later on. 

Speaking to some of my friends in medical school some of them wish they've taken courses that they skipped out on because they feared it would bring their GPA down, now they're paying the price for it. 

 

 

It does.........which is why some school in the states put up recommended courses other than the chemistry, biology, and physics pre-reqs. 

Learning those courses a second time and seeing the same material a second time makes a HUGE difference period

I meant that whatever you learn at the undergrad level will only help so much, for the first few weeks of professional school at best, or sporadically with general concepts or even units here and there. Not that anatomy is only 1 week in med/dent.

 

Talking to my friends in medical school, most say it didn't really make much difference that they had taken anatomy/histo etc or not, since you're still going to be grinding day in and day out in medical school - it might make it slightly easier than the friend next to you who didn't do it in undergrad, but not even close to being necessary to succeed. I guess it all comes down to an individual level, some who haven't taken it will feel they would have been better off (biased in the situation though) and others who have, think it wouldn't make a difference. Same thing with those who do just as well as others, without having taken them either, or those who did take them in undergrad but do worse than those who haven't etc. etc.

 

 

As for US schools, the majority of them still have the standard freshman/sophmore pre-reqs. Sure a few here and there might have that extra pre-req, but it isn't going to make a lick of difference in the long run. Very few actually require the courses you mentioned. I took an advanced Genetics and an extra biochemistry class for one US school - and I highly doubt it will make a lick of difference in the grand scheme. Some may require the anatomy&physiology combined class - but that is a freshman class anyways, and kinda pointless compared to Gross Anatomy or a real physiology class.

 

Again, taking those courses will help and be a decent idea -but in no means do you need to take them to be "rigorous" or "not cut corners" etc etc.

 

You can develop the skills necessary to succeed in medical school in numerous ways outside of what specific coursework you take. How about time management? Work a  near full-time job and take a full-course load(in a slightly "less rigorous" coursework). That would prepare you 10x (arbitrary) more than taking every undergrad related medical course, or the hardest physics/math degree you can think of.  That is just a suggestion, one of many, that could be an approach to preparing for medical school - though completely unnecessary as well. Everyone has their own way of preparing.

 

 

[JohnGrisham]

That sounds great in principle, but I am assuming OP is limited due to first year pre-reqs. OPs not in their first year. If they were, I'd be agreeing with you. They're doing this exclusively to get into medicine. As suggested, it might be good to take a course or two out of the life sciences (granted that you feel comfortable doing so).

 

But I say for 7k, you should really be getting exposure to upper level medical content, challenge yourself with it, and get in touch with great professors who you might be interested in doing research with.

 

But at this point, I feel like I am projecting my thoughts way too much on OP. I just caution everyone to be careful in knowing what they're getting themselves into. My brother was one of the ones that unfortunately didn't. I largely attribute his substance abuse issues largely to this. Additionally, one of my brothers' friends at UTmed ended up committing suicide while in his third year. I can only speculate on the reason behind the suicide, but from what I've heard, stress may have been a large contributor. It's why I always encourage premeds to challenge themselves with a rigorous course load (which ironically are courses you can score the highest in).

I'm sorry about your brother and his friend who committed suicide, that is very sad to hear. Professional school isn't easy - and i'm sure there were numerous factors at play that led to that outcome. You provide a good point, of knowing what you're getting into - though it is hard to truly know until you are actually there.  While one way may be to take a slightly more rigourous course load, another could be to balance with work, ECs, personal life etc. 

[cookiemonster99]

My final comment would be, that while yes there is some benefit of taking some undergrad courses related to medical school - it is not necessary at all outside of pre-reqs. That is what professional school is for, to teach you what you need to know for that field. Take courses that will help in other areas (not a good writer? take a technical writing course under the engineering department. Not good at accounting and business topics? take some commerce courses in small business management etc etc). Taking an undergrad anatomy class might help for the first week of medical school, but after that it won't matter much.

 

 

I meant that whatever you learn at the undergrad level will only help so much, for the first few weeks of professional school at best, or sporadically with general concepts or even units here and there. Not that anatomy is only 1 week in med/dent.

 

Talking to my friends in medical school, most say it didn't really make much difference that they had taken anatomy/histo etc or not, since you're still going to be grinding day in and day out in medical school - it might make it slightly easier than the friend next to you who didn't do it in undergrad, but not even close to being necessary to succeed. I guess it all comes down to an individual level, some who haven't taken it will feel they would have been better off (biased in the situation though) and others who have, think it wouldn't make a difference. Same thing with those who do just as well as others, without having taken them either, or those who did take them in undergrad but do worse than those who haven't etc. etc.

 

 

As for US schools, the majority of them still have the standard freshman/sophmore pre-reqs. Sure a few here and there might have that extra pre-req, but it isn't going to make a lick of difference in the long run. Very few actually require the courses you mentioned. I took an advanced Genetics and an extra biochemistry class for one US school - and I highly doubt it will make a lick of difference in the grand scheme. Some may require the anatomy&physiology combined class - but that is a freshman class anyways, and kinda pointless compared to Gross Anatomy or a real physiology class.

 

Again, taking those courses will help and be a decent idea -but in no means do you need to take them to be "rigorous" or "not cut corners" etc etc.

 

You can develop the skills necessary to succeed in medical school in numerous ways outside of what specific coursework you take. How about time management? Work a  near full-time job and take a full-course load(in a slightly "less rigorous" coursework). That would prepare you 10x (arbitrary) more than taking every undergrad related medical course, or the hardest physics/math degree you can think of.  That is just a suggestion, one of many, that could be an approach to preparing for medical school - though completely unnecessary as well. Everyone has their own way of preparing.

 

 

 

you seem to be changing what you're saying in your posts 

 

and i'm gonna disagree with you as to it doesn't matter much 

 

the point that i'm trying to make is that learning these courses once makes a HUGE difference. 

 

Especially in terms of anatomy. Having seen the material a second time makes it a lot easier to pick up again versus someone who's doing the course for the first time. 

 

In terms of developing time management skills, I definitely agree with you in terms of that but everyone is different so how they manage their time and how they develop their time management skills will be different.

[JohnGrisham]

you seem to be changing what you're saying in your posts 

 

and i'm gonna disagree with you as to it doesn't matter much 

 

the point that i'm trying to make is that learning these courses once makes a HUGE difference. 

 

Especially in terms of anatomy. Having seen the material a second time makes it a lot easier to pick up again versus someone who's doing the course for the first time. 

 

In terms of developing time management skills, I definitely agree with you in terms of that but everyone is different so how they manage their time and how they develop their time management skills will be different.

The general intent between the two posts are the same, i just added the "best case" scenario lol. (Y)