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Did You Go Into Medicine For The Money


RGK

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Medicine for $75k a year? Nope.

 

Prior to Med School, I had a job that paid in that range with a 40 hour work week and benefits. I got to help patients, draw on scientific and technical knowledge, as well as make decisions that affected people's health and well-being. There were some real non-monetary advantages to going into medicine, but there's no way I would give up 6-10+ years of my life to work dozens of additional hours each week for what would effectively be a pay cut.

 

My point is that medicine isn't unique as a profession that helps people, nor is your job the only way to make a positive influence in others' lives. There's a lot of good I could do with an extra 20 hours each week, or with 10 years of my life - volunteering, community projects, even spending extra time with family (especially kids when I have them). Even money can have positive effects - I have a long list of charities I'd like to contribute to, but realistically wouldn't be able to with $75k in compensation, at least not in a significant way. Lastly, stress over money isn't a trivial concern. You can live reasonably well with $75k a year, but money still becomes a constraint at that point. Between the long hours and heavy responsibility, being a physician is stressful enough.

 

I think it's admirable that there are people who would become a physician at a significantly lower compensation level. However, I also think it's a bit naive. Money matters, and medicine isn't that special.

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Medicine for $75k a year? Nope.

 

Prior to Med School, I had a job that paid in that range with a 40 hour work week and benefits. I got to help patients, draw on scientific and technical knowledge, as well as make decisions that affected people's health and well-being. There were some real non-monetary advantages to going into medicine, but there's no way I would give up 6-10+ years of my life to work dozens of additional hours each week for what would effectively be a pay cut.

 

My point is that medicine isn't unique as a profession that helps people, nor is your job the only way to make a positive influence in others' lives. There's a lot of good I could do with an extra 20 hours each week, or with 10 years of my life - volunteering, community projects, even spending extra time with family (especially kids when I have them). Even money can have positive effects - I have a long list of charities I'd like to contribute to, but realistically wouldn't be able to with $75k in compensation, at least not in a significant way. Lastly, stress over money isn't a trivial concern. You can live reasonably well with $75k a year, but money still becomes a constraint at that point. Between the long hours and heavy responsibility, being a physician is stressful enough.

 

I think it's admirable that there are people who would become a physician at a significantly lower compensation level. However, I also think it's a bit naive. Money matters, and medicine isn't that special.

Thank you for being honest

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not a med student but proud to say I would become a surgeon or other type of physician for minimum wage.

 

Not many jobs in the world are as amazing as medicine.

Thank you too for being honest.....wish you the best of luck in your application

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What I always find interesting about the money debate for professions is how people look at it from an individualist point of view.

 

We all do. I know I did which was because I was young but my view from being in a relationship is much different because there is two of us so I'm not as concerned about MY income so much as our household income. If my wife and I each have $75K/yr jobs, our lives are pretty damn sweet from a finances perspective.

 

Sure, higher HH income might mean more trips or earlier retirement options but outside of that we certainly won't have issues with bills, quality of life, etc.

 

I think the partnership future perspective is something young people would be well to consider when thinking about careers, income, etc.

 

 

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I think that the question posted above re medicine versus physician assistant is very on point. 

 

Physician Assistants are paid MINIMUM $75K in Ontario. They actually can do anything a doctor does, even surgery, but they are an employee of a doctor and overseen by a doctor their entire career. In that way, it's almost like a resident role your entire career (with better hours of course).

I seriously considered the PA route because it's only a 2 year program and it's easier to get into, I could get started earlier. At this point I might never get into med school so it's worth a shot right? But at this point, I can't see myself committing to that path. I have been a lawyer for enough years now that I am used to being the person in charge, making the decisions, and having the responsibility. Although the responsibilities of being a professional can feel like they weigh on you sometimes, it's actually a privilege when you have it. It's something you don't want to give up!
 

I'm sorry to say this about a group that I want to join, but doctors seriously need to stop whining about the training involved! Like seriously, you sound like idiots when you do! 

First of all, this is Canada, everyone has an undergrad, who cares? Your undergrad does not count.

Second, 3-4 years of school after your undergrad is not a big deal! Try to find any other program that is shorter and takes less training and get back to me.

Third, residency is PAID! It is a good wage and good benefits too. I understand that it's a lot of long hours and all of that, but it's just paid work like any other. It doesn't count as "school". You cannot say "I went to school for 12 years". (Please stop saying that).

The great thing about medicine is that you can actually bank on it being worth it at the end. So, it's partly that people are attracted to the income and security, but it's also great that they can rely on that going in. As a non-trad, I cannot afford to pursue anything that will put me in a worse off financial situation down the road. I do not come from a rich family, so going the PA route would put a lot more financial strain on us than becoming an MD. 

I think the real question here might be "would you pursue medicine if you won the lottery"? For me, I would! Although part of the attraction to medicine and what makes it doable is the financial reality of it, I am also interested in it taking those factors away. Even if money were no object, I would want to do it and become a doctor. 

I feel like a lot of this comparing training to other fields is a little contrived. Like what do you think non-doctors do in their 20s and 30s? Sit around by the pool with a pina colada? I feel like anyone out there trying to be successful is working just as hard. 

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I would argue that if physicians made 75 k a year, acceptance into medical school would be SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to the point were I think there would be almost no competition. 

Doesn't make much sense to spend a collective average amount of 12 years of schooling (assuming 4 years undergrad, 4 years medicine and 4 years residency +/- 2 years)to be making the same salary that someone can make coming out of a 4 year professional entry program like engineering, nursing, xray, sono etc. 

 

I get that people claim just to "love heping people", but you helping yourself and your family should be your #1 priority. 

 

On a personal note I always wondered how medical doctors got such a high salary in the first place? Like what is the history behind the process of it?

Medicine is not the only profession where actions impact lives literately. Think about engineers building bridges, nuclear reactors, chemical plants, buildings. Anyone know how medicine got such a high salary and "social respect" ?

 

Well I think the difference is that multiple engineers check over designers for a bridge and it goes through multiple steps and there is no urgency to checking a manuscript like there is in the ER, whereas with doctors health is time limited, if you don't make the right decisions at the right time the patient could suffer. 

 

Also, everyone will eventually see a doctor and so physicians back in the day with their almost mythical knowledge earned respect. Would you respect the only person who could extend your life? I would think so. 

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Medicine for $75k a year? Nope.

 

Prior to Med School, I had a job that paid in that range with a 40 hour work week and benefits. I got to help patients, draw on scientific and technical knowledge, as well as make decisions that affected people's health and well-being. There were some real non-monetary advantages to going into medicine, but there's no way I would give up 6-10+ years of my life to work dozens of additional hours each week for what would effectively be a pay cut.

 

My point is that medicine isn't unique as a profession that helps people, nor is your job the only way to make a positive influence in others' lives. There's a lot of good I could do with an extra 20 hours each week, or with 10 years of my life - volunteering, community projects, even spending extra time with family (especially kids when I have them). Even money can have positive effects - I have a long list of charities I'd like to contribute to, but realistically wouldn't be able to with $75k in compensation, at least not in a significant way. Lastly, stress over money isn't a trivial concern. You can live reasonably well with $75k a year, but money still becomes a constraint at that point. Between the long hours and heavy responsibility, being a physician is stressful enough.

 

I think it's admirable that there are people who would become a physician at a significantly lower compensation level. However, I also think it's a bit naive. Money matters, and medicine isn't that special.

 

 

I agree. For me, there is more to life than medicine. I'm here for the lifetime of financial and job security to fuel my hobbies. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not a slacker (as much as people think this when it is said in real life), I just plan to be taking it "easy" in family med and not gunning for a "prestigious" or "cool" job that will consume my entire life. If the pay was cut, I would go into dentistry or some sort of business profession.

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Have it all? Medicine also has extremely long work weeks, a significantly longer amount of time in training and school, stress, anxiety etc haha.    Im sure an engineer in a higher position would have similar stresses' but they don't have the same length of training and constant unknown aspects involved. 

 

But it is apples to oranges.  The better comparison would be for a position in a health care related field:

 

In the US, they have physicians, and physician assistants(PA). The PA does school for less and still gets the patient interactions and working towards helping people etc. Some clear 6 figures, but what they don't have to deal with is all the extra stress and paperwork the physician has to deal with. The years of residencies, fellowships etc. (They can in a way still specialize by working in a given field and learning through clinical experience).  This is definitely a good option for some people who want to focus more on work/life balance without sacrificing their academic desires and aspirations to "help others" (as always is pointed out).

 

But you have to realize there are many people who despite the wages, actually do enjoy the prospect of the continued learning and challenges that go along with some field trajectories and medicine in general. As long as you don't make reimbursements ridiculously low, i don't think there would be that significant of a drop in interest from those types of individuals. You would  definitely see a drop in individuals whom are pursuing medicine because of its stability, financial security and prestige factors etc.

 

It still fathoms me people actually care about prestige. At the end of the day if you're in a busy specialty working 60+ hrs/week, I would think people would really only care what their family and friends think when they can find the time to actually live life and build upon those relationships with them.  Prestige isn't  going to console you after a tough day, or remember a special memory of a long forgotten time :)

 

 

But PAs don't make medical advancements and don't do research that is the kicker. 

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I agree. For me, there is more to life than medicine. I'm here for the lifetime of financial and job security to fuel my hobbies. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not a slacker (as much as people think this when it is said in real life), I just plan to be taking it "easy" in family med and not gunning for a "prestigious" or "cool" job that will consume my entire life. If the pay was cut, I would go into dentistry or some sort of business profession.

As long as you understand what the day-to-day is like and that is what you want to do. I want to spend my days diagnosing and prescribing and advising. Running a dental practice would be very different I think. I think that dentists spend a lot more of their time on practice management than doctors.

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Well think this in a practical manner. Before getting in medical school, you need an undergrad. The application process is pretty expensive too: MCAT books, MCAT, applications, flights + hotels etc... Then, you need to study 4 years + 2-8 years of PGY years. Obviously, you need to eat and live somewhere, and hopefully buy some new clothing from time to time.

 

How much debt would you accumulate in the process? I'm guessing a lot of people will finish with 200k+ debts at the end of their residency, some even more than 250-300k. Also, the time commitment is pretty incredible throughout all these years.

 

So, because of the debt and the time+energy commitment, if it doesn't even pay well enough to pay off my debts quickly enough, I wouldn't have chosen this path for sure.

 

Luckily I'm in Qc and tuition is fairly low so I won't have a crushing debt. But it's not the same story in the rest of Canada and the USA. And I think it's fairly common that people don't want to go in family medicine because of that.

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Well think this in a practical manner. Before getting in medical school, you need an undergrad. The application process is pretty expensive too: MCAT books, MCAT, applications, flights + hotels etc... Then, you need to study 4 years + 2-8 years of PGY years.

 

How much debt would you accumulate in the process? I'm guessing a lot of people will finish with 200k+ debts at the end of their residency, some even more than 250-300k. Also, the time commitment is pretty incredible throughout all these years.

 

So if it doesn't even pay well enough to pay off my debts quickly enough, I wouldn't have chosen this path for sure.

How can you justify $200K or more in debt? Maybe because that is what the bank will give you. Also, I totally understand why people will take all that and spend it with abandon. But, you do not need to take it. 

 

$100K in debt should be sufficient, and you can pay that off in 1-2 years after residency. It's actually a much shorter pay off time than other professional programs. 

 

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How can you justify $200K or more in debt? Maybe because that is what the bank will give you. Also, I totally understand why people will take all that and spend it with abandon. But, you do not need to take it. 

 

$100K in debt should be sufficient, and you can pay that off in 1-2 years after residency. It's actually a much shorter pay off time than other professional programs. 

 

How much is it per year of UG at say, U of T? 15-20k?

How much is the 4 years of MD tuition? I don't know. You tell me.

How much does rent cost in Toronto? Livint expenses?

 

Also it's not ''give''. Don't forget interests. It's a compound interest that can quickly ruin you. Right now, it's low, but it was higher than 5% a few years ago.

And the rate is always higher than what it seems to be. Each month, say the rate is 2.85%. It's a 12th of 2.85% more. So by the end of the year, it's way more than just a 2.85% of interest.

 

And also, to go back with the earlier 75k hypothetically, supposing the tuition is just as high as it is now. That means that the banks will be unlikely to lend money because the payout is lower + they will charge a higher interest. With that kind of wage, how many years will it take to pay off your debts if you lived in Toronto for example? When are you ever going to start saving for your retirement?

 

Even in Quebec with government financial aid + lower living expenses I will finish my MD with something like 40k of debts. I fail to see how 100k will cover it in another province unless if you are lucky to have rich parents who will cover your expenses.

 

So for 75k a year with all the time commitment and the years spent studying, nope, I wouldn't do that. Not even in Quebec.

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Not sure I agree on $100K being sufficient. Think the following:

 

1) Tuition+books+tools, etc = $25K/yr?

2) Moving to medical school $1K- $4K?

3) Living expenses $10K-$15K/yr?

4) Electives (travel+accomodations) $8K?

5) Carms bullsh!t $10K?

6) Lisc Exam??

7) Moving for residency $1K-$4K?

 

 

#1 alone for most places in Canada will be $100K.

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But PAs don't make medical advancements and don't do research that is the kicker. 

 

Who says that'll stay that way? The only reason physicians get to be so heavily involved in research is because they're allowed to, not because of any special aptitude or even training in research. Nurses are becoming increasingly involved in research either through graduate studies or simply due to career exposure - no reason PAs couldn't as well.

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How can you justify $200K or more in debt? Maybe because that is what the bank will give you. Also, I totally understand why people will take all that and spend it with abandon. But, you do not need to take it. 

 

$100K in debt should be sufficient, and you can pay that off in 1-2 years after residency. It's actually a much shorter pay off time than other professional programs. 

 

Love your profile pic lol! That's Autumn Reeser right? 

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How much is it per year of UG at say, U of T? 15-20k?

How much is the 4 years of MD tuition? I don't know. You tell me.

How much does rent cost in Toronto? Livint expenses?

 

Also it's not ''give''. Don't forget interests. It's a compound interest that can quickly ruin you. Right now, it's low, but it was higher than 5% a few years ago.

And the rate is always higher than what it seems to be. Each month, say the rate is 2.85%. It's a 12th of 2.85% more. So by the end of the year, it's way more than just a 2.85% of interest.

 

And also, to go back with the earlier 75k hypothetically, supposing the tuition is just as high as it is now. That means that the banks will be unlikely to lend money because the payout is lower + they will charge a higher interest. With that kind of wage, how many years will it take to pay off your debts if you lived in Toronto for example? When are you ever going to start saving for your retirement?

 

Even in Quebec with government financial aid + lower living expenses I will finish my MD with something like 40k of debts. I fail to see how 100k will cover it in another province unless if you are lucky to have rich parents who will cover your expenses.

 

So for 75k a year with all the time commitment and the years spent studying, nope, I wouldn't do that. Not even in Quebec.

I agree that $75K a year would not make medicine worth while.

 

I agree that the bank does not "give" you money! Trust me, I went to law school when prime was 6.5% lol. I know! 

 

I believe the average undergrad in Ontario is 8K a year now (way too high, I agree). Although I am not sure if undergrad counts. Everyone has an undergrad!

 

Medicine is $25 a year in Ontario. However, you should expect at least $5K a year in grants. That is $80K in tuition for four years and you can make about $32K in the summers on minimum wage, so that is $48K over 4 years, which is $12K a year, plus living expenses. There is really no need to live in Toronto. Once I got excepted to Queen's for law, I withdrew my app from Osgoode. I couldn't afford to live there!

 

At the end of the day, $12K a year plus living for four years gives you $13K a year to live on (when taking on a $100K debt load). Which is doable. I have done it. It's not fun, but it's more fun than being over your head. 

 

And at the end of it all, you can expect $20K a month in your bank account. $10K can go to debt repayment, $5K to taxes and other fees, $5K to live on and for savings. You would be debt free in a year on $100K (of debt), 2 years on $200K. It's actually pretty crazy if you ask me.

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I agree that $75K a year would not make medicine worth while.

 

I agree that the bank does not "give" you money! Trust me, I went to law school when prime was 6.5% lol. I know! 

 

I believe the average undergrad in Ontario is 8K a year now (way too high, I agree). Although I am not sure if undergrad counts. Everyone has an undergrad!

 

Medicine is $25 a year in Ontario. However, you should expect at least $5K a year in grants. That is $80K in tuition for four years and you can make about $32K in the summers on minimum wage, so that is $48K over 4 years, which is $12K a year, plus living expenses. There is really no need to live in Toronto. Once I got excepted to Queen's for law, I withdrew my app from Osgoode. I couldn't afford to live there!

 

At the end of the day, $12K a year plus living for four years gives you $13K a year to live on (when taking on a $100K debt load). Which is doable. I have done it. It's not fun, but it's more fun than being over your head. 

 

And at the end of it all, you can expect $20K a month in your bank account. $10K can go to debt repayment, $5K to taxes and other fees, $5K to live on and for savings. You would be debt free in a year on $100K (of debt), 2 years on $200K. It's actually pretty crazy if you ask me.

How would you make 32k over 4 summers? What kind of jobs did you have in mind? 

 

Also remember, 3rd and 4th year med students don't really get a summer. 

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Minimum wage in Ontario is $11/hour, there are 20 working days in a month, times 4 months is 80 days. At 8 hours a day, that is 640 hours and $7,040 a year, times 4 is $28,160. So, become a lifeguard or a bartender, or work a little more than 40 hours a week, and you are at $32K. I made more than that in my summer jobs over a decade ago when minimum wage was like $8!

I am not trying to say it is easy or that it doesn't suck to take on a lot of debt. I am saying that people should try to not take on too much debt, but also that you can pay it off in medicine. Which makes it a great path to pursue that way. You are free to take on the risk for the most part. However, I think the original posters question was more about the long term:

Sure, let's just assume the path pays off. Would you pursue it still if you didn't think you would be rewarded financially afterwards? i.e. for the rest of your life...

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I don't know how it works in other provinces but here in Qc, if you work, your financial aid significantly shrinks. i.e. you are basically volunteering when you get a paid job as a student. As a result, you don't get more money from work. Therefore, you just have to burrow more money from the banks, so the banks make more money off the back of the students.

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My experience in Ontario was that I got almost nothing from OSAP even though my family income was not high, and even when I was 4 years out of high school and they stop looking at your family. I also went to law school with people who drove BMWs and got like $20K a year in student loans. The system does not make sense there!

The numbers that I was talking about were sort of besides student loans, other than Ontario grants reducing med tuition by about $5K a year.

 

When I went to school, I paid working really difficult jobs and really crappy bank loans. OSAP gave me next to nothing. So that's the subject of another post, lol, my numbers were based on the costs without student aid.  

I also agree about the banks making money off of the backs of students. It should be outlawed. 

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MOST full time GPs make around 250K a year (post expenses, pre income tax), and most specialists average around 400K a year.  That is why medicine is so competitive, and why the vast majority of applicants to medicine apply in the first place.  In countries where physicians make much less money, it is much less competitive to get into medicine (ie - pretty much all of Scandinavia).  Of course people will convince themselves they are doing it for other reasons or what not.

 

Virtually all the fancy neighborhoods in my city are disproportionately physicians.  One famous neighborhood for mansions and large beautiful estate homes is nicknamed PILL HILL (as it is pretty much all doctors). 

 

For men in particular, medicine is very appealing.  It provides access to attractive women and significant respect without the risks of other professional avenues.

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