MathToMed Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Remember, you're not proposing 10K (or are you?) - I interpreted your proposal as 10K, plus med school tuition (in addition to current government funding), plus cost of living. If you're saying a 10K per year incentive, then no, it wouldn't be enough to tip the scales for me, with respect to my initial post.Over 8+ years, that's a lot of potential growth, particularly when you use it like a bank. And then the problem is this money would continue to make money over your entire working career...eventually, it would grow to be quite large.I'd have to crunch the numbers, but maybe long term it would save the government money...however it'd certainly take a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iosmed Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Med School tuition would be totally covered, cost of living would be covered to a reasonable amount and you might or might not get 10k depending on the strain it would have on the government. Do you really think the 10k from first year would be more valuable than paying a newly minted family physician 3x less and remember their salary would only adjust for inflation, not really much growth aside from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iosmed Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Wouldn't it only be over 5/6 years depending on where you go to school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathToMed Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 No, but I'm pretty sure saying "med school tuition would be totally covered" isn't a trivial matter - they'd be paying for that too, and that's a pretty decent expense.All I'm saying is that it transfers your earning potential from later in life to a bit earlier...which for me, would solve the matter entirely. Long term, clearly the two functions will cross and your choice is cheaper than the current option (with the exception of if the dividends are in excess of the 2/3rds of a physician salary...which is highly dubious). The question is, how long will that take? Will it having a lasting impact on peoples' buying power in the short term, and how reasonable would it be to drop that much money all at once?Someone would have to crunch the numbers to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iosmed Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Well keep in mind the government already subsidizes a decent portion of medical education as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathToMed Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I have...but that's money that is spent by the government in both scenarios so thankfully, it doesn't factor into the comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I think a lot of people would want more than 75k based on how much work and responsibility is involved. Plus you'd have to make all docs salaried for that to work. Most people will resist that tooth and nail. Most FFS docs I know would hate having to become a govt. employee. I know I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edict Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Who says that'll stay that way? The only reason physicians get to be so heavily involved in research is because they're allowed to, not because of any special aptitude or even training in research. Nurses are becoming increasingly involved in research either through graduate studies or simply due to career exposure - no reason PAs couldn't as well. I think physicians will always dominate in research, if PAs started doing research en mass then the distinction would be nearly gone. I'm not saying its impossible for some PAs to go into research but it is a minority. Procedural research is still always going to be done by physicians who do those procedures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edict Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 And neither will most doctors who aren't clinicians scientists. That is true, but still w/e. Doctors do need to defend their profession but lately I feel like there is so much fear about doctors losing out to PAs and nurses... Can we just get on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makingfetchhappen Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I would do it for that scenario, but there would also need to be a pension as well. If you start at $75K and move up gradually, similar to other health professionals, you are going to be worse off in the end than a nurse if you don't have a pension. Nurses start at $60K in Ontario, I believe, and they get a pension. I am interested in family though, I don't think it would necessarily be worth it to be a surgeon on those numbers. Depending what field you are in, it can be an intense job, and I can see why people would feel that salary is not enough. The way things are now, you know that you are going to be making a very comfortable living at the end of the day. I would imagine that is helpful when you are in residency and you want to maybe live close to work, take a taxi when you are tired, pick up a meal when you are too tired to grocery shop. $75K a year is definitely comfortable, but you still need to budget on it if you are living near a major city.If you are busy, you can easily blow through your entire salary every month just on bills and food and stuff. It's about $4K a month after deductions I think. It might sound like a lot to a student who has not worked before, but living in Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, etc., most of your money goes to housing. I know I only paid $360 a month for rent back when I was in undergrad so living on $4K a month would have been very different then!Also I grew up without a lot of money. I am sure most people from upper middle class families would not want to go into medicine for that salary. People want to stay in the lifestyle they have become accustomed to. It's just human nature I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iosmed Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Including a pension would definitely be a smart call, a good reason why some cardiologists are having a difficult time finding a job in the GTA is because a lot of the older cardiologists that were expected to retire got blown out in the stock market during the 2008 financial crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Including a pension would definitely be a smart call, a good reason why some cardiologists are having a difficult time finding a job in the GTA is because a lot of the older cardiologists that were expected to retire got blown out in the stock market during the 2008 financial crisis. People need to stop spewing these myths. The market has rebounded and those losses have been gained back and then some. My portfolio is far and above what it was in 2008 when the market took a dump. My uncle (who retired in 2009 and who is not a Dr) has seen his portfolio do the same as have my in-laws. My friends who are in finance say their clients have clawed back as well. If a Dr in his 60's and who have been practicing for 25-30 years blames the market for their inability to retire that's hogwash. It's their p!ss poor financial management that makes them keep practicing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrouchoMarx Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 75k is not a good income for the time commitment and level of competition required for medicine. To lower it to that level, physicians would have to become employees of the state. Pathologists in Ontario are about 50% employees and I can say from my interactions with them that very few of them are happy with that marginalized arrangement. Medical programs and acceptance of IMGs would also have to proliferate to generate an oversupply of labor. In other words, the profession would have to become commoditized so the only differentiating factor between providers would be cost. This is the unfortunate truth of engineers. I also do not buy the Ontario government's arguments for cost cutting. The deficit should be well taken care of by the effects of recently plummeting oil prices and lower US dollar exchange rate, which will bump up the manufacturing sector by a considerable margin. Doctors as a whole have no more reason to become a target for government cuts. Yet I do believe that some fees need to be readjusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 75k is not a good income for the time commitment and level of competition required for medicine. To lower it to that level, physicians would have to become employees of the state. Pathologists in Ontario are about 50% employees and I can say from my interactions with them that few of them are happy with that arrangement. I also do not buy the Ontario government's arguments for cost cutting. The deficit should be well taken care of by the effects of recently plummeting oil prices and lower US dollar exchange rate, which will bump up the manufacturing sector by a considerable margin. Doctors as a whole have no more reason to become a target for government cuts. Yet I do believe that some fees need to be readjusted. LOL! you think a short-term run on lowered oil pricing is going to make up for YEARS of $10B+ deficits in Ontario? Labour is supposed to respond to market conditions and in the private sector they do. A business under duress cuts costs and decreasing or freezing wages is part of the package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 People need to stop spewing these myths. The market has rebounded and those losses have been gained back and then some. My portfolio is far and above what it was in 2008 when the market took a dump. My uncle (who retired in 2009 and who is not a Dr) has seen his portfolio do the same as have my in-laws. My friends who are in finance say their clients have clawed back as well. If a Dr in his 60's and who have been practicing for 25-30 years blames the market for their inability to retire that's hogwash. It's their p!ss poor financial management that makes them keep practicing. this is completely true - we are well past recovering from the recession AND anyone that was thinking of retiring back in 08 now on paper would have all their money back and more, plus now would need 6-7 less YEARS of retirement income anyway as they are older. Doctors that aren't retiring simply don't want to retire (and when you are at the top of the game, with great income, interesting job that is stimulating, and a lot of your self worth is wrapped up with being a doctor you can see why), or they really, really messed up somewhere money wise that is well become any sort of recession etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I think a lot of people would want more than 75k based on how much work and responsibility is involved. Plus you'd have to make all docs salaried for that to work. Most people will resist that tooth and nail. Most FFS docs I know would hate having to become a govt. employee. I know I would. and our role is a professional one that doesn't make a lot of sense to be just an employee in a lot of cases. Hard to be a full advocate for someone if your hands are tied by government rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roygbiv Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I think the question would be better posed as: "If we lived in a communist society, where everyone made an equal amount of money and there was little to no social inequity, would you still pursue medicine?" I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makingfetchhappen Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 and our role is a professional one that doesn't make a lot of sense to be just an employee in a lot of cases. Hard to be a full advocate for someone if your hands are tied by government rules. I see how you might think that but I don't think doctors can't be both employees and independent. If judges can be government employees and independent so can doctors. Your duties to your patient are always going to come first. Just like if you are a doctor and an employee of another doctor you don't lose autonomy over how you chose to practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigars53 Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I went into medicine because I like to cut bones with a saw and being a butcher was not glamour enough. #ortholife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iosmed Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 People need to stop spewing these myths. The market has rebounded and those losses have been gained back and then some. My portfolio is far and above what it was in 2008 when the market took a dump. My uncle (who retired in 2009 and who is not a Dr) has seen his portfolio do the same as have my in-laws. My friends who are in finance say their clients have clawed back as well. If a Dr in his 60's and who have been practicing for 25-30 years blames the market for their inability to retire that's hogwash. It's their p!ss poor financial management that makes them keep practicing. My apologies, I heard this straight from the mouth of a guy at uoft med who did some research into specialities. I guess my question to you would be though there wasn't there still a few years when it was more difficult for new cardiologists to find jobs? Since the people that should have been retiring in 2008 might have stuck around a bit longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 "So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work." I expect to be compensated in proportion to my innate skills and my hard work. I think the question would be better posed as: "If we lived in a communist society, where everyone made an equal amount of money and there was little to no social inequity, would you still pursue medicine?" I would. I honestly think that question's unanswerable - because that sort of society is utterly unachievable without destroying human individuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 "So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work." I expect to be compensated in proportion to my innate skills and my hard work. I honestly think that question's unanswerable - because that sort of society is utterly unachievable without destroying human individuality. that would be a weird society etc (we have tried to get close to that in the past) Still you can put it this way - many places in the world have free tuition and pay for people to go to school. So it is quite possible to remove the debit etc out of the equation. Those places often do have doctors earning quite a bit less afterwards compared to here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 that would be a weird society etc (we have tried to get close to that in the past) Still you can put it this way - many places in the world have free tuition and pay for people to go to school. So it is quite possible to remove the debit etc out of the equation. Those places often do have doctors earning quite a bit less afterwards compared to here True enough, but even if you pay doctors and janitors the same - I suspect more people would prefer to be doctors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edict Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 I think the question would be better posed as: "If we lived in a communist society, where everyone made an equal amount of money and there was little to no social inequity, would you still pursue medicine?" I would. Same, but if i'm making 75k for 50-60 hours a week with so much debt and years of education I wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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