Chances For Irish Med Schools (Kind Of Urgent)

[Lys0some]

Hello all,

Due to some circumstances I could not apply earlier. And now, I'd like to apply to Irish medical schools.
I requested an application from the Atlantic Bridge Program and it says the deadline is Mar 16th.
I am very unfamiliar with Irish schools because I only heard about them recently and I don't have much time to search for info (midterm season and upcoming app deadline). So it would be great if someone could be give me a very brief response to my questions:
1) Stats in short:
- Canadian, UG @ University of Toronto (physiology specialist and human biology major)
- cGPA = 3.60 (UofT scale) and excluding first year, 3.81. MCAT = 28 (10/10/8, 8 on VR), probably have all the required prereqs (in case I don't want to include my MCAT)
- research in enteroendocrinology (~450 hrs), molecular cardiology (35 hrs), theoretical chemistry (~450 hrs), applied psychology (200 hrs), published 1 review paper, submitted 1 primary paper, in the process of publishing another review, and may be a co-author on another primary paper soon. 
- volunteered at a plastic surgery clinic (1100 hrs), dental clinic (40 hrs), miscellaneous community service (110+ hrs)
- established some UG club, 4 awards (academic and research) and countless conferences/poster presentations (national, international and local).
2) I understand I missed the first round for some Irish medical schools, so what are my chances at them (being a second round applicant) and other schools? (Cork, UCD, Limerick, RCSI, NUI, and Trinity)
3) I could not find any Canadian match rates for Irish IMGs, what are the chances for obtaining an internal med spot after I graduate?
4) would it have been any better had I gotten into a USMD school (in terms of a Canadian residency spot)?
5) Ireland vs Australia?

I understand I asked too many questions, but I am just looking for brief yes/no or numerical answers. I would have dug deeper on the forums, but I truly don't have time and I could use some of your help and expertise.

Much appreciated

 

 

 

[JohnGrisham]

No.

Just no. 

This is not something you just rush into without knowing anything about. DO NOT APPLY and do some research first.

And yes, getting into a USMD/DO school will be significantly better then going abroad. 

I really hope you don't submit such a hasty application without being informed on really anything from what your post says.

 

[Lys0some]

No.

 

Just no. 

 

This is not something you just rush into without knowing anything about. DO NOT APPLY and do some research first.

 

And yes, getting into a USMD/DO school will be significantly better then going abroad. 

 

I really hope you don't submit such a hasty application without being informed on really anything from what your post says.

 

 

Well people have complicated situations. I understand I should refrain from making hasty decisions that could alter my career. 

Point was that I am in a situation where I need some helpful quick advice that can help me make a decision or direct me to select avenues to research in depth.

I'd much rather be in a more informed position, but for now, I need to make a decision of whether to apply or not. I assure you, by the time I have to make a real decision with regard to admission (if I get an offer that is), I will do a more serious research. This is more of a "reducing-the-chances-of-wasting-application-money" strategy.

 

You pointed out that a USDO school is more preferable to an Irish Med School, thank you. Can you please elaborate on how you reached this conclusion? (e.g. match rate data)

[JohnGrisham]

Well people have complicated situations. I understand I should refrain from making hasty decisions that could alter my career. 

Point was that I am in a situation where I need some helpful quick advice that can help me make a decision or direct me to select avenues to research in depth.

I'd much rather be in a more informed position, but for now, I need to make a decision of whether to apply or not. I assure you, by the time I have to make a real decision with regard to admission (if I get an offer that is), I will do a more serious research. This is more of a "reducing-the-chances-of-wasting-application-money" strategy.

 

You pointed out that a USDO school is more preferable to an Irish Med School, thank you. Can you please elaborate on how you reached this conclusion? (e.g. match rate data)

Right, good luck with that. 

 

I can assure you, no one has a gun to your head to fork over the $300K to go study outside of Canada.

 

A. If you want the best shot at a Canadian residency- you go to a Canadian school.

 

B. If you want the best shot at an American residency -you go to an American school.

 

C) If you leave Canada, you should shift focus to going to a school that gives you the best shot at an American residency, see B.  While keeping the option of Canadian residencies open, but not the main focus.

 

Good luck, Have  Fun. (GLHF).

[IMislove]

Essentially, if you go out of NA, your chances of landing a residency in Canada drop really hard, just due to you getting 2nd cycle, and you have to land a clerkship here, which even that is tough to do, as seen in the CaRMs IMG report of 2010. And it's only gotten harder since then. So, definitely consider an American school before you consider going abroad. That way, you can still apply in the first cycle of CaRMs AND land a clerkship in Canada. Best of luck.

[Mashmetoo]

I also have an entire thread up on USDO medical schools, even published a book a few months ago dealing with situations like this. Have a look at my signature.

[Mashmetoo]

Basically, one does not rush to apply to international medical schools and expect to get a good outcome 4 years down the line.

With your stats, I think its a good thing you haven't applied to Irish schools yet. You have another 2-3 months before US medical school applications start up, and you can have a shot at US medical schools, MD/DO. Your stats make your a competitive candidate for US schools.

[Lys0some]

Thanks for the replies 

Thing is, I already applied to more than 10 USMD schools last cycle with pretty much my current stats, and they were the lowest tier possible (based on MSAR and given they are Canadian-friendly). But not a single one accepted me, not even schools that aren't accredited (revoked or in the process of licensing); I am waiting on 2 more though, but I am pretty certain they will reject me. I also applied to all the Canadian schools I am eligible for, all rejected me. 

 

The timeline of my trials of getting into medical schools or priority list is as follows,

1) Canadian MD

2) US MD

3) Irish/Australian MD/MBBS

4) Caribbean MD

5) US DO.

 

Not that DO is inferior, it's just not my type and I haven't heard many good things about their match rates (my ultimate goal is interventional cardiology, so internal med). There's probably no hope for Canada with my stats, unless I collect a Nobel prize. The hope for USMDs hinges on my next MCAT score. I guess I'll do a masters for 2 years then apply to the first 3 options simultaneously. 

[JohnGrisham]

Thanks for the replies 

Thing is, I already applied to more than 10 USMD schools last cycle with pretty much my current stats, and they were the lowest tier possible (based on MSAR and given they are Canadian-friendly). But not a single one accepted me, not even schools that aren't accredited (revoked or in the process of licensing); I am waiting on 2 more though, but I am pretty certain they will reject me. I also applied to all the Canadian schools I am eligible for, all rejected me. 

 

The timeline of my trials of getting into medical schools or priority list is as follows,

1) Canadian MD

2) US MD

3) Irish/Australian MD/MBBS

4) Caribbean MD

5) US DO.

 

Not that DO is inferior, it's just not my type and I haven't heard many good things about their match rates (my ultimate goal is interventional cardiology, so internal med). There's probably no hope for Canada with my stats, unless I collect a Nobel prize. The hope for USMDs hinges on my next MCAT score. I guess I'll do a masters for 2 years then apply to the first 3 options simultaneously. 

hahahahaha.

 

Right, good luck. 

[Lys0some]

hahahahaha.

 

Right, good luck. 

What's so funny ubc2012?

[JohnGrisham]

What's so funny ubc2012?

I would highly encourage you to do some research on schools before making any decisions - but at the end of the day it is your risk, your time, your money on the line. I think I will save my breath and let you sort out things for yourself. 

[Meridian]

I think the path you are considering is pretty risky and low chance for success.

 

Look, you are panicking. There are 1000's of undergrads feeling the same way right now.   Maybe step back and digest why you had limited success at the US applications ---  Will your 4th year GPA results maybe improve your chances to re-try the US MD/DO route next year ?   MCAT re-write ?

 

Do take 30 minutes and read through Mashmetoo's Premed info -- it is brilliant and has useful stats for out-of-country MD programs as well.   Half way down the first page shows IMG match for US residency (NRMP) at 40% in 2010  (it is near 50% in 2014).    Your chances for Canadian residency from Ireland can be counted on your 2 hands and is 2nd round.   Local Residency in Ireland or UK is almost nil if you dont hold an EU passport.    Unless you are brilliant and also work real hard your chances to get residency is below 50%

 

     http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/41799-applying-to-us-do-schools-faqs-and-short-summary-of-schools/

 

Why dont you message Atlantic Bridge and ask them specifically for their North American students residency succss rate.  Interesting they don't post that info anywhere.

 

Here is the latest NRMP info - see page 15 for non-US citizen residency match -- less than 50% in 2014

 

     http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

     http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/

 

 

Irish tuition / living is $55K+$20K CDN per year. That is $300K for 4 years for less than 50% chance at moving forward in the USA.

 

Good wishes on whatever path you do try.

[Meridian]

Check this post and maybe IM them for guidance.

 

    http://www.valuemd.com/uk-irish-medical-schools/224175-irish-ucd-graduates-experience-atlantic-bridge.html

[Lys0some]

I would highly encourage you to do some research on schools before making any decisions - but at the end of the day it is your risk, your time, your money on the line. I think I will save my breath and let you sort out things for yourself. 

I am pretty well-informed on Canadian and US schools and I know what I am saying. I've been doing research on all NA schools for the past year. The Irish option only came into play when I got a little too lazy for an MCAT re-write and a 2-year masters. This is why I don't know much about it. But other than that, I know exactly where I'm placing my risk, time and money. So stop acting like the know-it-all, and if you don't have anything helpful to say, yes please save your breath.

 

I think the path you are considering is pretty risky and low chance for success.

 

Look, you are panicking. There are 1000's of undergrads feeling the same way right now.   Maybe step back and digest why you had limited success at the US applications ---  Will your 4th year GPA results maybe improve your chances to re-try the US MD/DO route next year ?   MCAT re-write ?

 

Do take 30 minutes and read through Mashmetoo's Premed info -- it is brilliant and has useful stats for out-of-country MD programs as well.   Half way down the first page shows IMG match for US residency (NRMP) at 40% in 2010  (it is near 50% in 2014).    Your chances for Canadian residency from Ireland can be counted on your 2 hands and is 2nd round.   Local Residency in Ireland or UK is almost nil if you dont hold an EU passport.    Unless you are brilliant and also work real hard your chances to get residency is below 50%

 

     http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/41799-applying-to-us-do-schools-faqs-and-short-summary-of-schools/

 

Why dont you message Atlantic Bridge and ask them specifically for their North American students residency succss rate.  Interesting they don't post that info anywhere.

 

Here is the latest NRMP info - see page 15 for non-US citizen residency match -- less than 50% in 2014

 

     http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

     http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/

 

 

Irish tuition / living is $55K+$20K CDN per year. That is $300K for 4 years for less than 50% chance at moving forward in the USA.

 

Good wishes on whatever path you do try.

Which path? The one in the original post? If so, yes that is why I decided to switch to my other option (MSc + MCAT re-write). And I am not panicking ... I'm simply weighing my options: wanted to know if the pro/con balance of an Irish MD (Sep 2015 admission, higher chance of admission, high tuition, low residency chances) is better than that of waiting and re-applying for a US/Canadian MD (Sep 2017 admission, low chance of admission, high/low tuition, high residency chances, MCAT re-write, etc.). The hurry was because of the deadline.

 

The reason why I was unsuccessful at US schools is because of a not very good GPA and a terrible MCAT. After a masters, my 4th year GPA will be included and my MCAT will improve. 

Besides, I don't intend to move forward to the USA, I am a Canadian. From what I've gathered, an Irish degree is perceived differently in Canada. Regardless, I did say I will only consider it after I exhaust my list of options. Thank you for your helpful advice, unlike others.

[JohnGrisham]

I am pretty well-informed on Canadian and US schools and I know what I am saying. I've been doing research on all NA schools for the past year. The Irish option only came into play when I got a little too lazy for an MCAT re-write and a 2-year masters. This is why I don't know much about it. But other than that, I know exactly where I'm placing my risk, time and money. So stop acting like the know-it-all, and if you don't have anything helpful to say, yes please save your breath.

 

Again, good luck - I know that you must feel frustrated with the process. I think moving forward the masters/MCAT retake will definitely help you with UofT perhaps and a few other Canadian schools. That is definitely a better route than outside of Canada/USA - as it seems you do enjoy research anyways. 

 

[Edict]

 

 Hello all,

 

Due to some circumstances I could not apply earlier. And now, I'd like to apply to Irish medical schools.

I requested an application from the Atlantic Bridge Program and it says the deadline is Mar 16th.

I am very unfamiliar with Irish schools because I only heard about them recently and I don't have much time to search for info (midterm season and upcoming app deadline). So it would be great if someone could be give me a very brief response to my questions:

1) Stats in short:

- Canadian, UG @ University of Toronto (physiology specialist and human biology major)

- cGPA = 3.60 (UofT scale) and excluding first year, 3.81. MCAT = 28 (10/10/8, 8 on VR), probably have all the required prereqs (in case I don't want to include my MCAT)

- research in enteroendocrinology (~450 hrs), molecular cardiology (35 hrs), theoretical chemistry (~450 hrs), applied psychology (200 hrs), published 1 review paper, submitted 1 primary paper, in the process of publishing another review, and may be a co-author on another primary paper soon. 

- volunteered at a plastic surgery clinic (1100 hrs), dental clinic (40 hrs), miscellaneous community service (110+ hrs)

- established some UG club, 4 awards (academic and research) and countless conferences/poster presentations (national, international and local).

2) I understand I missed the first round for some Irish medical schools, so what are my chances at them (being a second round applicant) and other schools? (Cork, UCD, Limerick, RCSI, NUI, and Trinity)

3) I could not find any Canadian match rates for Irish IMGs, what are the chances for obtaining an internal med spot after I graduate?

4) would it have been any better had I gotten into a USMD school (in terms of a Canadian residency spot)?

5) Ireland vs Australia?

 

I understand I asked too many questions, but I am just looking for brief yes/no or numerical answers. I would have dug deeper on the forums, but I truly don't have time and I could use some of your help and expertise.

 

Much appreciated

 

 

 

2) your chances are decent if you applied 1st round, 2nd round i'm not as sure, but possible

3) They are around 60-70%, internal med is hard I would say 20-30% the way things are going (by the time you graduate)

4) Definitely a lot better, you would basically be guaranteed a residency spot in the US and your chance in Canada would be higher maybe 60-70% for IM in 4 years

5) Tough to say, you lose an extra year if you go to Australia due to different curriculums, but for you, you might not even lose a year. I would say that Ireland has a history of matching to Canada, but its tough to call. They are both the same.  

[Edict]

Again, good luck - I know that you must feel frustrated with the process. I think moving forward the masters/MCAT retake will definitely help you with UofT perhaps and a few other Canadian schools. That is definitely a better route than outside of Canada/USA - as it seems you do enjoy research anyways. 

 

 

The way Ontario med admissions are right now I really don't think OP has a good shot in Canada. Maybe the US, but someone with a 28 MCAT is just not going to improve that much overnight, maybe to a 31 if lucky but thats it and a 3.7ish GPA and a 31 MCAT is not going to get you into a single Canadian medical school unless you are SWOMEN. 

 

US is a possibility however. 

 

OP I recommend the US in the end, but if you must go to Ireland, go but don't expect anything other than FM unless you work really hard and basically dedicate your life to medicine when you get to Ireland, then you can think IM. 

[JohnGrisham]

Looking at this match, FM is getting snapped up left and right in Canada.

[Lys0some]

2) your chances are decent if you applied 1st round, 2nd round i'm not as sure, but possible

3) They are around 60-70%, internal med is hard I would say 20-30% the way things are going (by the time you graduate)

4) Definitely a lot better, you would basically be guaranteed a residency spot in the US and your chance in Canada would be higher maybe 60-70% for IM in 4 years

5) Tough to say, you lose an extra year if you go to Australia due to different curriculums, but for you, you might not even lose a year. I would say that Ireland has a history of matching to Canada, but its tough to call. They are both the same.  

 

 

The way Ontario med admissions are right now I really don't think OP has a good shot in Canada. Maybe the US, but someone with a 28 MCAT is just not going to improve that much overnight, maybe to a 31 if lucky but thats it and a 3.7ish GPA and a 31 MCAT is not going to get you into a single Canadian medical school unless you are SWOMEN. 

 

US is a possibility however. 

 

OP I recommend the US in the end, but if you must go to Ireland, go but don't expect anything other than FM unless you work really hard and basically dedicate your life to medicine when you get to Ireland, then you can think IM. 

Thank you for the responses.

 

I agree with you, which is why I will just take a year off to study the MCAT, then apply again (another year). I'll focus on the US alone, because Canada tends to require a high GPA as well as a high MCAT, one does not offset the other.

 

But I've been thinking, doing a Masters would take me 2 years and will be pretty hardcore (at least at my University), which means, I will not really get the time I need to study the MCAT to get a score high enough to offset my low GPA (34+). I do think I can improve my MCAT drastically mainly because I know why I did not do well the first time (was not prepared). So it occurred to me that I could possibly either volunteer at a hospital for those 2 years (a big waste of my time), simply work in a lab but not towards a thesis (pretty sad to put most of the effort required for a masters yet not get it), or apply to a community/technical college program (e.g. cardiovascular technology diploma). I am leaning towards the last option because it would be easy enough to study the MCAT along with, will demonstrate my interest in medicine and will give me a certificate I can actually use for a job during medical school (if I ever get in fml).

 

Only thing concerning me is that medical schools tend to ask what I did during my gap year(s), and I am not sure if saying I attended a community college would hurt my admission chances. What do you guys think (USMD schools)? I could have tried for a physician assistant program, a nursing program, a 1-year masters, all of which are University programs but either the deadline passed, the tuition is too high or I'm just not interested (e.g. masters of public health). Do you have any other suggestions for my gap year? I mean, I suppose I could also do 2 more undergrad years that would boost my GPA but that may also look bad (i.e. what took this guy so long to graduate).

[shikimate]

Your stats seems to suggest reasonable chance at Irish schools; however in the current climate it would be very difficult for IMG to obtain Internal Medicine residency in Canada. CaRMS 2015 had just finished and the number of IM spots left over for 2nd round has greatly diminished in the past 5 years (This year only NOSM and Sask in English Canada). Even family medicine and psychiatry, which are traditionally spots IMG go for, have decreased. I don't know what the CSA numbers are like in 2015 but I would bet it's not any less than when they did the survey in 2010. I have not looked at the data for NRMP but it seems someone else has kindly posted a link for that.

 

I think doing a diploma and maybe obtaining some work experience may not be a bad idea. It'll also give you a source of income and some time to reflect on your future path.

 

Good luck with your future endeavours.

[Edict]

I would retake the MCAT and spend a lot of time on it rather than do the masters. I personally would take the lab work and try to get a publication out of it, because research looks good on applications. I don't know how US medical schools will view a community college diploma. 

 

I don't recommend going to Ireland. A lot of people are going and honestly I'm sure a lot of people won't get back. 

[JohnGrisham]

I would retake the MCAT and spend a lot of time on it rather than do the masters. I personally would take the lab work and try to get a publication out of it, because research looks good on applications. I don't know how US medical schools will view a community college diploma. 

 

I don't recommend going to Ireland. A lot of people are going and honestly I'm sure a lot of people won't get back. 

I would take notice of MedStart's advice, they are quite knowledgeable w.r.t foreign schools. 

[Depression]

Also Australia is a bad bet as well. Don't bother applying there