Incredibly Useful Advice

[carmsismybestfriend]

Advice to all CMGs (USMGs already know this)

 

So I didn't match into carms after wasting so much time and electives but I do have a backup and it is the greatest backup ever....the United States (NRMP)

 

So NRMP has 1 round and SOAP has 5 rounds so 6 rounds of offers in total and if you don't match somehow in these 6 rounds you can SCRAMBLE which is where your office of student affairs advocates for you....so it actually takes alot to not match in the United States.... unless you are a complete idiot and failed everything I can't see how you would not match. I have a class mate that is as dumb as nails and was held back 1 year and still pre-matched into Family Medicine

 

So my advice to everyone is consider the United States- pathway back to Canada is very very smooth (at least for Ontario) - i.e. Internal Medicine is 3 years in thes States and as long as you pass your US-boards then you return to Ontario.

 

THis part maybe because I didn't match into carms and I am still bitter but I felt in general the canadian interviewers were pretty arrogant - for example at McGill one interviewer's phone went off twice and when I said my French is at the high school level she laughed and put her head down to her ankles to show how frustrated she was...just one of multiple examples....also why the #@#$ do they invite several hundred people for a mere handful of spots - consider the fact that people have to travel far distances and if people don't have a shot then don't send the invite...schools cut the list by over a half before the interview so a bunch of people are just showing up for nothing..

 

Also did I mention in the United states you can start moonlighting PGY-1 and start making $$$$$ ($128 an hour)

 

so in closnig please seriously consider the NRMP.  That is all.

[rmorelan]

So I didn't match into carms after wasting so much time and electives but I do have a backup and it is the greatest backup ever....the United States (NRMP)

 

So NRMP has 1 round and SOAP has 5 rounds so 6 rounds of offers in total and if you don't match somehow in these 6 rounds you can SCRAMBLE which is where your office of student affairs advocates for you....so it actually takes alot to not match in the United States....If you are a United States Medical Graduate unless you are a complete idiot and failed everything I can't see how you would not match. I have a class mate that is as dumb as nails and was held back 1 year and still pre-matched into Family Medicine

 

So my advice to everyone is consider the United States- for example Internal Medicine is 3 years there and pathway back to Canada is very straighforward (for Ontario anyways)

 

THis may be because I didn't match into carms and I am still bitter but I felt in general the canadian interviewers were pretty arrogant - for example at McGill one interviewer's phone went off twice and when I said my French is at the high school level she laughed and put her head down to her ankles to show how frustrated she was....also why the #@#$ do they invite several hundred people for a mere handful of spots - consider the fact that people have to travel far distances and if people don't have a shot then don't send the invite.....anyways screw you carms I'll return to Canada through the United States...

 

Also did I mention in the United states you can start moonlighting PGY-1 and start making $$$$$ ($128 an hour)

 

so in closnig please seriously consider the NRMP.  That is all.

 

you might need a new user name

[JohnGrisham]

Advice to all CMGs (USMGs already know this)

 

So I didn't match into carms after wasting so much time and electives but I do have a backup and it is the greatest backup ever....the United States (NRMP)

 

So NRMP has 1 round and SOAP has 5 rounds so 6 rounds of offers in total and if you don't match somehow in these 6 rounds you can SCRAMBLE which is where your office of student affairs advocates for you....so it actually takes alot to not match in the United States.... unless you are a complete idiot and failed everything I can't see how you would not match. I have a class mate that is as dumb as nails and was held back 1 year and still pre-matched into Family Medicine

 

So my advice to everyone is consider the United States- pathway back to Canada is very very smooth (at least for Ontario) - i.e. Internal Medicine is 3 years in thes States and as long as you pass your US-boards then you return to Ontario.

 

THis part maybe because I didn't match into carms and I am still bitter but I felt in general the canadian interviewers were pretty arrogant - for example at McGill one interviewer's phone went off twice and when I said my French is at the high school level she laughed and put her head down to her ankles to show how frustrated she was...just one of multiple examples....also why the #@#$ do they invite several hundred people for a mere handful of spots - consider the fact that people have to travel far distances and if people don't have a shot then don't send the invite...schools cut the list by over a half before the interview so a bunch of people are just showing up for nothing..

 

Also did I mention in the United states you can start moonlighting PGY-1 and start making $$$$$ ($128 an hour)

 

so in closnig please seriously consider the NRMP.  That is all.

You forgot to mention having to take USMLE Step 1 and Step 2, which may not be an easy feat or desirable for many students, considering the different curriculum structures. 

 

The opportunity costs probably don't make sense for most applicants, unless you're on the tails (either a really shaky applicant  or an applicant going for tough specialties).

 

p.s. FM is 3 years in the US and 2 years in Canada, small tidbit.

 

 

[JohnGrisham]

and the 128$ seems a bit high... i guess it depends though where you are, what specialty and year.

[carmsismybestfriend]

You forgot to mention having to take USMLE Step 1 and Step 2, which may not be an easy feat or desirable for many students, considering the different curriculum structures. 

 

The opportunity costs probably don't make sense for most applicants, unless you're on the tails (either a really shaky applicant  or an applicant going for tough specialties).

 

p.s. FM is 3 years in the US and 2 years in Canada, small tidbit.

 

 

 

I can't change my username - maybe NRMPismybestfriend is more suitable

 

but news-flash look how many students didn't match this year - at Mac abou 20, and Western about 8 or so...U of T 11 didn't match...and of course the Quebec schools probably many

 

So probably about 100 students didn't match and there is no viable real backup because 2nd-iteration is a whole #$@$-fest and  these students are being hung out to dry.

 

For me US has the best hospitals in the world hands down but entire family is in Canada so in the end family wins and career comes second.

 

And also here's another news-flash competition doesn't end in residency - how about fellowships - you'll be competing your entire life in Caanda till you become an attending and who knows how much nasty competition and politics happens as an attending. There is a plethora of fellowships, job opportunities, and $$$ in the U.S. ..not like 1 or 2 per hospital and no job for you at the end of the line like what you see in Canada

 

THe only point I'm trying to make is this - yes I am bitter about not matching into Carms, yes I am jealous that I don't get to do my residency in Canada but you know what United States offers much more opporutniy and is more realistic for students

[nwhyte3]

Not sure why you are trying to convince us that the US is better when no one here cares frankly. I am also a USMG, I didn't back up by applying to NRMP and I did match in Carms, why? Because I put a shit ton of effort into the application and didn't get distracted with the NRMP application. We get that it sucks not to match to carms, but don't come on here and try to bash it.

 

Moonlighting after PGY1? That is simply a lie, you can moonlight after PGY2 not PGY1. Internal Medicine is 3 years in the US, but you won't meet the qualifications to return to Canada after residency because you need at least 4 years of training. FM is 3 years in the US, that extra year is a huge opportunity cost when compared with an attending salary. As for $$ and opportunities in the US, yes this is true for sub-specialties, but Canada is way better for primary care. Also you will have to deal with VISA issues, you'll need to get the program to sponsor you for the H1B over the J1 if you want to get paid your appropriate salary. 

 

Lastly, for Canadian students going to the US for residency is a huge hurdle. You would need to do very well on steps 1, and 2, and then apply to both carms and NRMP and most programs in the US don't look too favorably on Canadian med schools. 

 

Sorry you didn't match carms, good luck in the NRMP.

[JohnGrisham]

I can't change my username - maybe NRMPismybestfriend is more suitable

 

but news-flash look how many students didn't match this year - at Mac abou 20, and Western about 8 or so...U of T 11 didn't match...and of course the Quebec schools probably many

 

So probably about 100 students didn't match and there is no viable real backup because 2nd-iteration is a whole #$@$-fest and  these students are being hung out to dry.

 

For me US has the best hospitals in the world hands down but entire family is in Canada so in the end family wins and career comes second.

 

And also here's another news-flash competition doesn't end in residency - how about fellowships - you'll be competing your entire life in Caanda till you become an attending and who knows how much nasty competition and politics happens as an attending. There is a plethora of fellowships, job opportunities, and $$$ in the U.S. ..not like 1 or 2 per hospital and no job for you at the end of the line like what you see in Canada

 

THe only point I'm trying to make is this - yes I am bitter about not matching into Carms, yes I am jealous that I don't get to do my residency in Canada but you know what United States offers much more opporutniy and is more realistic for students

Oh for sure - I am not disagreeing at all with your points haha. 

 

I was just saying that taking Step 1 and Step 2, and scoring well for strong residencies - is already not an easy feat for a US grad, and likely a less easy feat for a Canadian grad who has curriculum differences and scheduling etc.

 

 

[rmorelan]

Oh for sure - I am not disagreeing at all with your points haha. 

 

I was just saying that taking Step 1 and Step 2, and scoring well for strong residencies - is already not an easy feat for a US grad, and likely a less easy feat for a Canadian grad who has curriculum differences and scheduling etc.

 

 

 

true there is a price you pay for doing all that - the time is lost to do other things that might help your app in other ways.

[JohnGrisham]

Not sure why you are trying to convince us that the US is better when no one here cares frankly. I am also a USMG, I didn't back up by applying to NRMP and I did match in Carms, why? Because I put a shit ton of effort into the application and didn't get distracted with the NRMP application. We get that it sucks not to match to carms, but don't come on here and try to bash it.

 

Moonlighting after PGY1? That is simply a lie, you can moonlight after PGY2 not PGY1. Internal Medicine is 3 years in the US, but you won't meet the qualifications to return to Canada after residency because you need at least 4 years of training. FM is 3 years in the US, that extra year is a huge opportunity cost when compared with an attending salary. As for $$ and opportunities in the US, yes this is true for sub-specialties, but Canada is way better for primary care. Also you will have to deal with VISA issues, you'll need to get the program to sponsor you for the H1B over the J1 if you want to get paid your appropriate salary. 

 

Lastly, for Canadian students going to the US for residency is a huge hurdle. You would need to do very well on steps 1, and 2, and then apply to both carms and NRMP and most programs in the US don't look too favorably on Canadian med schools. 

 

Sorry you didn't match carms, good luck in the NRMP.

Glad it worked out - ballsy move not applying at all to NRMP... 

[carmsismybestfriend]

Not sure why you are trying to convince us that the US is better when no one here cares frankly. I am also a USMG, I didn't back up by applying to NRMP and I did match in Carms, why? Because I put a shit ton of effort into the application and didn't get distracted with the NRMP application. We get that it sucks not to match to carms, but don't come on here and try to bash it.

 

Moonlighting after PGY1? That is simply a lie, you can moonlight after PGY2 not PGY1. Internal Medicine is 3 years in the US, but you won't meet the qualifications to return to Canada after residency because you need at least 4 years of training. FM is 3 years in the US, that extra year is a huge opportunity cost when compared with an attending salary. As for $$ and opportunities in the US, yes this is true for sub-specialties, but Canada is way better for primary care. Also you will have to deal with VISA issues, you'll need to get the program to sponsor you for the H1B over the J1 if you want to get paid your appropriate salary. 

 

Lastly, for Canadian students going to the US for residency is a huge hurdle. You would need to do very well on steps 1, and 2, and then apply to both carms and NRMP and most programs in the US don't look too favorably on Canadian med schools. 

 

Sorry you didn't match carms, good luck in the NRMP.

So i'll just make one more comment and stop

 

-not trying to convince anyone that US is better - if you have read anyting I'm typing - I'm highlighting the benefits of NRMP match not convincing anyone to abandon carms.

 

-you probably just did a google search to see if moonlight is allowed in PGY1 and looked at the first few hits and concluded that you can't moonlight as a PGY-1 - you should probably also scroll down further before you make sweeping statements - you can moonlight as a PGY-1 this is program specific.

 

Primary care is not way better in Canada - not exactly sure which programs you have been looking at.

Also I am a dual citizen so I apologize for not addressing the visa issue

 

Don't know how you came up with how US schools don't look favorably on CMGs - how does one come up with such a sweeping @#$@# statement??? You didn't apply to NRMP how would you know? Maybe I should call you a liar.

[JohnGrisham]

So i'll just make one more comment and stop

Moon-lighting is not a lie in PGY-1 year don't know where you got your info from

Primary care is not way better in Canada - not exactly sure which programs you have been looking at.

Also I am a dual citizen so I apologize for not addressing the visa issue

Don't know how you came up with how US schools don't look favorably on CMGs - how does one come up with such a sweeping @#$@# statement??? - now that is a lie

Relax gentleman/ladies. 

 

From my reading, moonlighting is program dependent and state dependent. Many programs don't allow you to moonlight as PGY1, and depends if its in-house etc blah blah [insert long hospital policy preamble here]

 

But yea, having dual citizen makes you waaaaay better off haha.  - Ex. You can't moonlight on the J1 visa, which is what most non US citizens in residency in the US are on.

 

Primary care,  specifically FM, is way better in Canada  than the US, full stop.   Better renumeration, less paperwork with all the insurance BS and headaches.  But you are correct -different variety in the states.

[carmsismybestfriend]

Relax gentleman/ladies. 

 

From my reading, moonlighting is program dependent and state dependent. Many programs don't allow you to moonlight as PGY1, and depends if its in-house etc blah blah [insert long hospital policy preamble here]

 

But yea, having dual citizen makes you waaaaay better off haha.  - Ex. You can't moonlight on the J1 visa, which is what most non US citizens in residency in the US are on.

 

Primary care,  specifically FM, is way better in Canada  than the US, full stop.   Better renumeration, less paperwork with all the insurance BS and headaches.  But you are correct -different variety in the states.

 

ok last comment this time...i have to respond to this

 

primary care is not way better in Canada - no program is perfect - I'm not saying US is superior but try convincing any physician in the world that Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, and the rest of the Ivys have an inferior primary care program to Canada they will laugh and scoff at you and cast you into the mordor and probably beat you with their sthethescopes for good measure.

 

Also I was providing an alternative (NRMP) it wasn't until our @#$ friend nwhyte came along and called me a liar and how Canada is way better in primary care, etc. that the conversation became heated - every program has its pros and cons. Also if you've matched get a @#$ life and don't spend it in the forums where the unmatched are sulking.

[JohnGrisham]

ok last comment this time...i have to respond to this

 

primary care is not way better in Canada - no program is perfect - I'm not saying US is superior but try convincing any physician in the world that Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, and the rest of the Ivys have an inferior primary care program to Canada they will laugh and scoff at you and cast you into the mordor and probably beat you with their sthethescopes for good measure.

 

Also I was providing an alternative (NRMP) it wasn't until our @#$ friend nwhyte came along and called me a liar and how Canada is way better in primary care, etc. that the conversation became heated - every program has its pros and cons. Also if you've matched get a @#$ life and don't spend it in the forums where the unmatched are sulking.

Ah let me clarify - practicing as a FM physician on average, is way better in Canada than the US. I didn't mean to imply the training programs are better( 2 years is shorter than 3 though ).  

 

My FM doc did a 1 year FM training in Sask back in the day specifically to avoid the 2 year FM programs. He laughed hard and said he couldn't imagine "wasting away" in a 3 year US FM program when I told him about my potential route. But he's also an odd fellow.  

 

But yeah, at the end of the day you do what you can do - and work with the options you have.

 

Good luck on March 16th!

[Arztin]

ok last comment this time...i have to respond to this

 

primary care is not way better in Canada - no program is perfect - I'm not saying US is superior but try convincing any physician in the world that Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, and the rest of the Ivys have an inferior primary care program to Canada they will laugh and scoff at you and cast you into the mordor and probably beat you with their sthethescopes for good measure.

 

Also I was providing an alternative (NRMP) it wasn't until our @#$ friend nwhyte came along and called me a liar and how Canada is way better in primary care, etc. that the conversation became heated - every program has its pros and cons. Also if you've matched get a @#$ life and don't spend it in the forums where the unmatched are sulking.

 

 

So i'll just make one more comment and stop

 

-not trying to convince anyone that US is better - if you have read anyting I'm typing - I'm highlighting the benefits of NRMP match not convincing anyone to abandon carms.

 

-you probably just did a google search to see if moonlight is allowed in PGY1 and looked at the first few hits and concluded that you can't moonlight as a PGY-1 - you should probably also scroll down further before you make sweeping statements - you can moonlight as a PGY-1 this is program specific.

 

Primary care is not way better in Canada - not exactly sure which programs you have been looking at.

Also I am a dual citizen so I apologize for not addressing the visa issue

 

Don't know how you came up with how US schools don't look favorably on CMGs - how does one come up with such a sweeping @#$@# statement??? You didn't apply to NRMP how would you know? Maybe I should call you a liar.

 

 

I can't change my username - maybe NRMPismybestfriend is more suitable

 

but news-flash look how many students didn't match this year - at Mac abou 20, and Western about 8 or so...U of T 11 didn't match...and of course the Quebec schools probably many

 

So probably about 100 students didn't match and there is no viable real backup because 2nd-iteration is a whole #$@$-fest and  these students are being hung out to dry.

 

For me US has the best hospitals in the world hands down but entire family is in Canada so in the end family wins and career comes second.

 

And also here's another news-flash competition doesn't end in residency - how about fellowships - you'll be competing your entire life in Caanda till you become an attending and who knows how much nasty competition and politics happens as an attending. There is a plethora of fellowships, job opportunities, and $$$ in the U.S. ..not like 1 or 2 per hospital and no job for you at the end of the line like what you see in Canada

 

THe only point I'm trying to make is this - yes I am bitter about not matching into Carms, yes I am jealous that I don't get to do my residency in Canada but you know what United States offers much more opporutniy and is more realistic for students

You are a guy who will be holding a MD in 2 months or so? Yet you write stuff like this... lol...

The fox and the ''bitter grapes''

 

I'm sure it's not a good situation to be unmatched. I don't wish that to happen to anyone, nor would I want to experience that myself during match day in 3 years. But please, contain yourself. I'm sure I'd be frustrated if I was in your spot too, but still, no need to start using this kind of language.

[Patho_Medicus]

Random question, can you moonlight in ontario?

[rmorelan]

Random question, can you moonlight in ontario?

sort of but it is much rarer and more challenging. There is a restricted licence thing in Ontario.

[Patho_Medicus]

I was going to email my new program director and ask! Would be fun if possibly in psych!

[thsc]

I can't change my username - maybe NRMPismybestfriend is more suitable

 

but news-flash look how many students didn't match this year - at Mac abou 20, and Western about 8 or so...U of T 11 didn't match...and of course the Quebec schools probably many

 

So probably about 100 students didn't match and there is no viable real backup because 2nd-iteration is a whole #$@$-fest and  these students are being hung out to dry.

 

For me US has the best hospitals in the world hands down but entire family is in Canada so in the end family wins and career comes second.

 

And also here's another news-flash competition doesn't end in residency - how about fellowships - you'll be competing your entire life in Caanda till you become an attending and who knows how much nasty competition and politics happens as an attending. There is a plethora of fellowships, job opportunities, and $$$ in the U.S. ..not like 1 or 2 per hospital and no job for you at the end of the line like what you see in Canada

 

THe only point I'm trying to make is this - yes I am bitter about not matching into Carms, yes I am jealous that I don't get to do my residency in Canada but you know what United States offers much more opporutniy and is more realistic for students

You don't have to do fellowships...only for certain sub-specialties and for people who can't find jobs. 

[nwhyte3]

So i'll just make one more comment and stop

 

-not trying to convince anyone that US is better - if you have read anyting I'm typing - I'm highlighting the benefits of NRMP match not convincing anyone to abandon carms.

 

-you probably just did a google search to see if moonlight is allowed in PGY1 and looked at the first few hits and concluded that you can't moonlight as a PGY-1 - you should probably also scroll down further before you make sweeping statements - you can moonlight as a PGY-1 this is program specific.

 

Primary care is not way better in Canada - not exactly sure which programs you have been looking at.

Also I am a dual citizen so I apologize for not addressing the visa issue

 

Don't know how you came up with how US schools don't look favorably on CMGs - how does one come up with such a sweeping @#$@# statement??? You didn't apply to NRMP how would you know? Maybe I should call you a liar.

 

Bro, I can tell why you didn't match just from the responses and this thread in general. They took one look at your application and thought " O great another USMG who didn't get into med school in Canada and now wants to come back... great". You should have focused more on building the narrative of "This is a unique applicant from the US who brings a different perspective that will lead to the betterment of this residency program". That was the key to matching as a USMG. I mean we are considering CMGs, not IMGs matching to Canada should have been relatively straight forward. 

[JohnGrisham]

Bro, I can tell why you didn't match just from the responses and this thread in general. They took one look at your application and thought " O great another USMG who didn't get into med school in Canada and now wants to come back... great". You should have focused more on building the narrative of "This is a unique applicant from the US who brings a different perspective that will lead to the betterment of this residency program". That was the key to matching as a USMG. I mean we are considering CMGs, not IMGs matching to Canada should have been relatively straight forward. 

Umm, that was uncalled for.

 

Sure the OP's responses are a bit emotional, but that is somewhat understandable.   Matching in CaRMS isn't as "straight forward" as you're making it seem - otherwise the multiple dozens of CMGs themselves wouldn't have went unmatched. 

 

Stuff happens - no need to belittle the OP, even if they were being standoffish in this thread and being negative. Remember, no need to put yourself at a lower level.