Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

applying during second degree


Guest hippo

Recommended Posts

Hi, I had a question and I wanted to seek the wise advice of others on this fabulous forum. I am currently applying to med schools for the second year in a row. I'm more than aware that I cannot count on getting in as a sure thing since it is so competitive. I actually have a BA but ever since I've decided that medicine is what I want to do, I am sure that a second choice would be a medically related field. So I am planning to go back and do a second degree in the sciences if I don't get in this year. I haven't pinned down exactly on what area but I do know that it would be in the Life Sciences.

 

So, my actual question is this: is it okay to keep applying while I am in the middle of doing a BSc? If it were, I would keep applying because medicine remains my first choice. If it's not okay, I would consider appling to med schools only after I was done.

 

Also, sorry to sound like a bit of a dummy, but I would love to find out what fields some of you have studied so that I could get a better idea of what I would like to pursue for a BSc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Kirsteen

Hi there hippo,

 

In terms of what you can study within the life sciences, it depends on where you plan on taking your B.Sc. At UofT for example, there is a fairly large assembly of life sciences programs including immunology, neuroscience, pharmacology and toxicology, biochemistry, and of course, human biology itself, which is the specialist program I completed, with a major in physiology (which is incidentally another UofT life sciences program).

 

Check out the following link for some more information on UofT's courses, and even if you will not be attending UofT having a look at the course descriptions for the various courses may help to provide some direction for making your choice.

 

www.artsandscience.utoron...gindex.htm

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest macdaddyeh

Hey Hippo:

 

Don't be so hard on yourself. You can make it! I imagine you applied to Mac, which is what most "Arts/Social Sciences" majors do (like myself). What is your concern in not getting in? Is it that you do not have a lot of "sciences?"

 

I think you must really address the reason you are not getting in first. Have you taken the MCAT? Remember that your marks and major of study are not THE thing that will necessarily make or break you although I will not downplay their importance. Depending on your province of residence will automatically get you points in many schools that have a geographical weighting calculation.

 

To make you feel a little better let me tell you about myself. I am a "social sciences" major but because of the nature of my undergraduate program I have had wide exposure to the natural/earth sciences and humanities. Therefore I am "well rounded" in that sense. Nonetheless I have not taken chemistry or biochemistry (all the science students GASP) and in fact, although I know it might be beneficial I have yet to decide if I will take those courses. First I do not want to bring down my solid GPA. Second, I could never imagine surrendering the time and energy to go back and pursue another major just to get my pure "sciences" in.

 

See how this year pans out first and if you get that coveted interview that you so desire, then weigh the odds. If you want it bad enough you will do what you will and you will get in at some point (hopefully soon:p )!

 

PS..Don't forget those extra-currics!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey hippo,

 

Just wanted to point out another option, which is to try and get into an MSc program in Epidemiology. It's a great stepping stone to meds since it gives you a great perspective on health and disease in the population at large, rather than the individual, and give you skills in research methodology, critical analysis of medical literature, etc. Job demand is huge, and the job possibilities are incredibly wide-ranging. And it's still possible at several schools to get in with a BA.

 

I got into the MSc program with a BA in French/Spanish, if you can believe that. I didn't even have any undergrad sciences. My focus is international health and I've been working on two amazing projects, one in Central America and the other in Bosnia. So even if I don't get into Mac this year, I know that I'll have another exciting year filled with travel and adventure. Granted, I can only apply to Mac right now, since I also don't have the prereq sciences for the other schools, but Mac's where I want to be anyway.

 

Well, that's just my little plug for epi. Going back to do another BSc is great too, but why not try and apply for an MSc if you can.

 

Best of luck to you, whatever you do. And if you're already thinking so carefully about it, then I'm sure you'll get in soon.

 

Cheers,

T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest UOMeds05

Hey Hippo,

 

First off, if meds is really what you want, then provided you have the prereqs, there is nothing stopping you from applying every year during your second degree. If you have the science prereqs already why is it that you are considering a BSc? If it is something that really interests you, by all means... this is where you will excell and get the marks that you need to get in.

 

I did an HBSc in Biochem before getting into Medschool... I ended up enjoying it, but really had decided biochem early on because i knew that meds is what i wanted. If I were to do it all over, i don't think that i would do Biochem again. If you didn't do medicine and are likely to end up in a related field, why not pursue that now all the while applying to medicine. I can't even tell you how many nurses, physios, OT's, kin's etc. are in my class. It seems like the best of both worlds... you are already pursuing plan B all the while trying to get to Plan A and it will all help you in your studies of medicine.

 

In the end, you have to do something that you are going to enjoy. Although marks aren't everything in your app, they are often the first thing the adcoms look at... if you are unhappy with what you are studying how are supposed to do well? These second degree marks are now going to be incorporated into your GPA calculation, so you are going to want to make them count.

 

Best of luck to you... you are heading down an exciting road. Enjoy the ride!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Hippo,

 

I'm not sure about other schools but I know that if you start a second degree, Western won't allow you to reapply until your third year of the new degree as they only use your most recent degree for GPA calculations (aneliz & TimmyMax correct me if I am in error). I know that there are other schools that may not have such restrictions.

 

As for potential programs in Life Sciences, I'm taking Pharmacology & Toxicology at Western. They're in the midst of revamping the program now and it isn't the most organized department but I really like the material. What I like about Pharm-Tox is that it incorporates a lot of principles and techniques in other scientific discplines (e.g. Biochemistry, Immunology, Cell Biology etc...). It utilizes a lot of these principles and applies them in order to understand absorption/distribution/metabolism/elimination of drugs (pharmacokinetics) and their effects (pharmacodynamics).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, thanks all of you for the advice and support! The answers are varied enough so I'll have lots to look into. Not getting in last year made me feel like I suddenly had no options, I found myself looking at my degree and how different it was from what I wanted to do. But the truth is there are so many options available to people interested in health care or medical sciences. The thinking I've gone thru since this summer has convinced me that it's not an all or nothing ie.Med School or bust, situation. This realization has been both a relief and a source of excitement for me. I'm going off to do a lot of research on the fields of study you guys have suggested.

 

Oh and I want to clarify, although I did an arts major, I have done all my prereqs for med school and the MCAT and did well on both. I actually think I'm better at sciences than arts, I did an arts degree to challenge myself and I am really glad I did! I'm looking into Plan B's just to be realistic. I don't have the research and overseas volunteering and extra-curriculars that a lot of pre-meds who were priming themselves early on have and that's the reason I feel like a less competitive applicant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest me maniac

tirisa,

 

I would like to get more info on the MSc in epidemiology. I am interested in this field, but am unsure of job prospects and the pay involved (ie it would have to pay better than I currently make :hat ). Also, how long is the master's that you are doing? I have heard that at some places, it can be done in a year! Did you spend your first year doing mostly grad courses? What if I cannot go overseas to do my research - where would be the best places to do research in Canada? I have lots of questions, I know, but I am trying to decide on a Plan B if med school doesn't work out....

 

Thanks,

 

M

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Kirsteen

Hi there me maniac,

 

Hopefully tirisa won't mind if I help out with some responses, but although I'm not in her position of having a completed M.Sc. in Epi., I am half-way through year one. :)

 

The job market for M.Sc. Epi graduates is currently pretty hot. Postings for research jobs requiring the M.Sc. in many cities across the country seem to appear very often, and a lot of the jobs look quite interesting and cover many fields: cancer, tobacco, women's health, vaccinations, etc. You name it, it's researched.

 

As to the pay, well I'm not sure what you are paid at the moment, but to give you an example of the pay, one job posting I saw this week for a M.Sc. Epi grad working here in TO was offering $50-65K, commensurate with experience. That doesn't seem too unusual.

 

Regarding the length of the M.Sc. program, if it involves a thesis then it's generally two years. At UofT the M.Sc. program consists of completion of a thesis plus 8 half courses. Most folks take ~6 courses in the first year, leaving two for the second year which they complete alongside their thesis. However, UofT is looking to reduce its M.Sc. Epi. program length down to one year, which may become firm in the 2-3 years or so. You can complete the program in one year with a good dose of elbow grease!

 

As to doing your research, you have opportunity to select your supervisor, and they are from all fields. At UofT we have some folks doing their thesis work in Africa, but most stick around here to do it and we're all over the place: at the Institute for Work and Health; any of the teaching hospitals in the city; the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health... Your research interests will largely dictate where you end up.

 

As to programs, I love the one here at UofT (the level of expertise that is available to call upon here, in any of the Epi-related disciplines is tremendous) but I hear that the Queen's program is also very strong.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not 100% sure on this one...but I don't believe that you would be prevented from applying to UWO until after your third year of your new degree...it is true that you cannot mix and match years between degrees for GPA purposes....but there is no rule that says that you have to have a science degree...I assume that your GPA is competitive from your BA? As long as you do the pre-reqs for UWO, there should be no problem applying using your BA degree for GPA purposes while you are taking science courses to make up the pre-reqs....I am not aware of any rule that states that they will use your most recent degree...simply that you cannot use two years from different degrees for GPA purposes.

 

You may also be eligible to apply in your second year of a BSc given that you have already completed the "15 full university courses" as part of your BA.

 

Check with admissions to be sure on this one:

admissions@fmd.uwo.ca

 

Good Luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Biochem10

Kirsteen, I'm just wondering whether you have to finish your M.Sc. before starting Med school. Have you applied for Meds this year? If you get accepted, do you plan on deferring or will you write up your thesis after one year? I've heard that deferral policies differ between schools in regards to finishing a grad degree, is this at all an issue for you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know that this won't be an issue for Kirsteen because she didn't apply to UWO but....

 

UWO's policy is that you must finish your grad degree BEFORE you will be eligible to register. This means that you must have finished all course work and you must have submitted your thesis...you can defend later but it must be submitted. UWO WILL NOT allow you to defer to complete this requirement. If you cannot satisfy this requirement by the end of Aug in the year you are offered admission, you will lose your acceptance and will have to re-apply in the following year. Moral of the story: do not apply to UWO if you cannot finisht the requirements of your grad degree by the end of Aug.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Kirsteen

Hi there Biochem10,

 

I've been aiming to complete my M.Sc. within a year since the start of the program (with my supervisor's support). It's a wee bit crunchy for time given that I'm completing the eight courses in one year (at the moment I'm taking five courses while all of my Epi. colleagues in first year are taking three) plus fitting in the activities affiliated with the completion of my thesis. I devised a timeline for the completion of my thesis activities in December, when I handed over the first draft of the thesis proposal to my committee. I'm a couple of weeks behind the timeline at the moment, but peddling away to catch up a wee bit and be defended by August!

 

As an aside: that's one thing that's pretty different: how taking 5.0 credits in one year at the graduate level is perceived quite differently from taking 5.0 credits in one year in undergrad. It seems that many folks (including quite a few instructors with whom I've chatted within the Faculty of Medicine at UofT) feel that 5.0 credits at the graduate level is an insane amount of work. The difference in attitude and perception is really quite wild. Has anyone run into this in any other programs? Also, aside from the MBA and Epi. programs, is anyone out there following a graduate M.Sc. program that is pretty course-heavy?

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Me maniac,

 

Sorry for taking so long to respond. But Kirsteen did a great job describing the MSc program and salary prospects. And she's certainly right on target regarding how hot the field is. Most of my classmates either had jobs before they finished their theses or were able to hold them off until immediately after they graduated. And the breadth of job possibilities really is fantastic... I know friends who got jobs working at public health units, Health Canada, CIHI, ICES, as well as provincial ministries of health. As well, think of all the health associations, such as the CNIB, Alzheimers Society, Heart and Stroke foundation, Can. Diabetes association... many of those also hire health researchers/epidemiologists, so whatever your specialty or interest, there are jobs out there for you.

 

Kirsteen is also on pretty much on target as far as salaries go, although it is slightly lower for smaller cities, as you would expect. As for the curriculum, I went to Queen's U, and the program is quite similar to what Kirsteen described, although course selection is more limited at Queen's, as compared to U of T, simply due to the smaller class size. I loved Queen's, but of course, each program has its strengths and weaknesses, and if you really are interested in applying and want to start comparing programs, then Kirsteen and I and other Epi grads can start to share more details about school specifics.

 

Kirsteen, you had a question about course load. At Queen's, taking more than 3 courses is not encouraged by the instructors. However, as students, we thought that we had it pretty easy in terms of work load. In fact, most students had part time jobs on the side, which gave us extra experience upon graduation and gave our bank accounts some relief as well. Good for you, though, for trying to complete your MSc in a year. I'm certain that you'll have no problem doing it. In fact, I hope that you defend mid-August so that you at least have a couple weeks off before your med school begins.

 

Cheers everyone,

Tirisa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Kirsteen

Hi there tirisa,

 

I have heard quite a few fabulous reviews of the Queen's program and know quite a few individuals who graduated from it and continue to rave.

 

Are you working within the Epi field at the moment? If so, do you mind me asking what you're up to with your degree?

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Kirsteen,

 

Yes, Queen's really is a great program. I only have positive things to say about it, other than the one negative comment I made earlier about course selection. And yes, I bet we know many of the same Queen's grads... several are doing their PhDs at U of T (like VK and JP). Several others are working in various organizations in TO (AL, CK, and AS). Few of them, however, are aware that I'm applying to MAC, although I'm sure they wouldn't be too surprised (well, VK and JP would, perhaps).

 

Anyway, I work on a Family Medicine Development program in the Balkans. Very fun. I have the opportunity to do different kinds of research in Bosnia (PTSD, smoking, etc), I teach the physicians there how to do research, and I do some program eval work, as well as many other little things. It's great fun really. I really really hope that I get the big brown envelope next month, but I do love what I'm doing now, and I love Kingston, so I would be happy to stay another year, if that was the case. We'll see.

 

Cheers,

T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Kirsteen

Hey there tirisa,

 

Yep, I certainly do know the VK and JPs of the epi world--we serve on a number of the same committees. VK is pretty cool.

 

Is it solely to Mac that you're applying? Best of luck to you--hopefully the odds are with you! ;)

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Kirsteen,

 

Yup, Mac is it. And it's my first time applying. As for the odds, well, we both know statistics, but I don't even want to start to think about odds. It's all out of my control now.

 

You've applied at least once before, eh?? I have to say that I'm utterly amazed by the people who have been posting to this forum, and the backgrounds that all of you have. MBAs, MScs, Phds, Law, Nursing, OT, PT... you name it. It's comforting to know that so many well rounded and motivated people are applying (and getting into) med school. The profession will be all the stronger for it.

 

Cheers,

T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest me maniac

Kirsteen & tirisa,

 

Thanks so much for the info. It sounds like the both of you like your respective programs.

 

While I like the idea of doing epi, the monetary rewards make it a little less appealing. I currently make more than those figures now, so spending a few years doing a MSc and then ending up no further ahead financially doesn't make sense. Do the wages for Ph.d's go up? Also, I really have no great interest in living in a large city (I have two young kids and I think it would be better for them in a smaller centre), could I still get jobs in smaller (ie < 100,000 pop'n) centres?

 

Although, to be honest, I really do want to practice medicine, and I think anything else I choose will be waaaaaaaaaay behind that. :\ I just need to be thinking of a backup plan.

 

Thanks again, and sorry it has taken me so long to respond.

 

me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Kirsteen

Hi there me maniac,

 

One thing to keep in mind is that a good bank of Epidemiology knowledge is a fabulous bit of icing on a medical career (most especially if that career is to ecompass a wee bit o' clinical research).

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest tantastic

What kind of GPA do you need for the Msc Epi program at lets say UofT? Sounds like its a great program that gives a person alot of options! Thanks Kirsteen

 

 

 

Me Maniac: What field do you currently work in what kind of salary progression does one expect in your career. Ie education, starting salary, increases etc.

 

Thanks alot to everyone

 

Tantasic

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Kirsteen

Hi there tantastic,

 

You need an A- average for UofT as well as a number of other items including: credit in an undergrad biostats course, and a supervisor plus potential research project pre-established. The competition to gain entry to the M.Sc. Epi. or M.H.Sc. Epi programs has been relatively fierce in recent years: ranging anywhere between 5-10 applicants per spot. (The M.Sc. Epi. program accepts 12-15 students per year.)

 

Hope that helps.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest tantastic

Kirsteen:

 

Thanks so much, as always very helpful :)

 

Now this A- stuff, is that for your final year or cumulative GPA? The reason I ask is I remember reading somewhere in here on one of the dust covered messages from yesteryear that your undergrad marks (due to working full time and all the other jazz you had on your plate) kept you from applying to MAC b/c the cum GPA didn't hit the 3.0. So can I assume that they looked at your last year or last 10 courses or did you do more undergrad courses after your undergrad? Thanks Kirsteen, you see I'm kind of in the same boat with my first 2 years being in the toilet (too much fun, no discipline or direction) and my thirrd and fourth year kicking ass and 5th:o year so far kicking ass. I hope that 3.7 isn't cumulative or I'm toasted oats.

 

Thanks again Kirsteen, you da bomb ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...