Choosing the right university for "pre-med"

[Guest krnboy]

I want to go to UofT life science, but I heard horrors about life science in University of Toronto. Many people were dropping out, switching majors, getting bad grades.

Here are the places where I got accepted

 

UofT Life Science, York Biotech, McMaster Health Science

 

Which one should I choose if I want to have the best chance of getting into medicine...provided that I study a lot and do all my homeworks ?

 

Please help..deadline is coming up...I will be a frequent poster.

[Guest peachy]

Students get into medicine from each of those programs. No one is better for all students than any other. It is up to you. You need to decide what is important to you, and then figure out which school best matches your interests. You should make an effort to get out to the open houses / information sessions organized by all these schools. That's the best way to get a feel for what is right for you.

 

A few questions to think about, off the top of my head:

Do you prefer a big city environment? A self-contained school? A smaller city?

Do you want to go to school with people who are always pushing to do the best, or do you want a more laid-back environment?

Do you want to go to a place where everybody takes everything very seriously?

Where are your friends going? Would you prefer to go to school with them, or to be forced to meet new people right away?

What kinds of extracurriculars do you like? Which school will support them best?

 

And a million other questions. But please, please, don't spend the next four years thinking, "What school should I pick so I will get into medicine? What extracurricular should I do so that I can get into medicine? What courses should I pick so I'll get into medicine?" Wanting to get into medicine is all well and good, but it ought not to drive everything you do for the next several years of your life.

[Guest krnboy]

thanks for the reply

Three of my cousins went to UofT and all got into med school. One of my cousin just got into UofT med. He'll be attending it next year. He's keep telling me to go to UofT. However, I know few people who said UT loves to give bad marks and make you want to drop out. I'll just reiterate what they said..."Most people in life science want to become a doctor...over 80% of them..but after the first year, there are only handful of people...about 2-5 people who now wants to become a doctor..." :eek It's pretty frightening to hear that. But then again, my friends are going to UofT...

 

My friend's brother who is currently in UofT 2nd grade says that I should go to York University because it's easier to get good marks, thus increasing the chance of getting into a med school. Even though York is offering me $6,000 scholarship, I just don't like its reputation. Although it's not true, if I do attend York, I would feel like I'm studying in a "@#%$" university. As long as I get into a med school, I really don't care about which university I attend as an undergrad.

 

I know people who just finished first year in McMaster health science program. They said that it's pretty easy to get high marks, provided that you don't slack off, do your homework and study hard...I guess this applies to any university. He had 11.5/12 GPA first year.

 

Peach, did you attend University of Toronto as an undergrad? If so, how hard is it get a good (3.8/4) mark at UofT life science?

 

I need all the help and advice I can get in order to walk a suitable path in which I will most likely to succeed in the end.

[Guest peachy]

Hi krnboy,

 

My friend's brother who is currently in UofT 2nd grade says that I should go to York University because it's easier to get good marks, thus increasing the chance of getting into a med school. Even though York is offering me $6,000 scholarship, I just don't like its reputation. Although it's not true, if I do attend York, I would feel like I'm studying in a "@#%$" university. As long as I get into a med school, I really don't care about which university I attend as an undergrad.

Did your cousin apply MD/PhD? Straight MD applicants haven't found out yet if they have gotten in for next year.

 

Wow, I'm having a hard time composing a response to this without getting really defensive. I'm graduating from York this term, and I absolutely love it here. To qualify my answers below, I'll tell you that I also spent a year at U of T before I transferred to York.

 

It is NOT easier to get great marks at York. We have many very excellent students at York. It's just as hard to get an A or A+ at York as it is at U of T. We're also not graded on a curve - if the whole class fails, then the whole class fails. Courses can have no A+'s if the prof doesn't feel like anybody has earned it. Anyways, you can search through old threads. This question has been rehashed many times on this board.

 

If you come into University with the attitude "I just want to get the best marks possible so that I can get into medical school, and I don't care about what else I can get out of undergrad" then you are setting yourself up to (1) reinforce the whole "premed" stereotype that people hate and (2) lose out on what can be three or four amazing years of your life.

 

If you're going to come to York and act like you're suffering at an inferior school just to get good marks, then don't come here. Please. There are a lot of excellent reasons to choose to come to York. Because you think it'll be easy to get into medical school is not one of them.

[Guest krnboy]

sorry for offending you. I didn't know you use to attend York University.

wow..if my cousin did get md/phd..he's a genius! :eek

I'll ask him.

 

(1) reinforce the whole "premed" stereotype that people hate and (2) lose out on what can be three or four amazing years of your life.

 

I'm sorry, but I think I'm (1). I can choose go to computer science or engineering, but I choose not to because I want to pursue medicine. I generally have a lot of friends and know a lot of people at York and UofT and am going to spend great times with them, so I don't think I'll be losing three or four amazing years of my life. I'll join clubs, meet new people and keep an active social life. However, that doesn't mean that I won't be dedicated or determined in doing whatever is neccessary to get into a med school.

 

May I ask why you transferred from University of Toronto to York University? I just want to see whether you were contradicting yourself or not... ah this is not good... All I'm asking for is some good advices and it seems like I'm starting a fight....that was not my intention

I guess my questions were kind of sensitive.

I didn't mean to...

 

btw some of my friends and my cousin attending York University say that it is a good university. But many people in high school generally have this idea that York Univ isn't that good. I'm still considering to go to York Univ though.

 

SORRY!!!!! :x

[Guest peachy]

I'm sorry, but I think I'm (1). I can choose go to computer science or engineering, but I choose not to because I want to pursue medicine. I generally have a lot of friends and know a lot of people at York and UofT and am going to spend great times with them, so I don't think I'll be losing three or four amazing years of my life. I'll join clubs, meet new people and keep an active social life. However, that doesn't mean that I won't be dedicated or determined in doing whatever is neccessary to get into a med school.

I want to pursue medicine, and I did CS, so it's not like it's not possible. But anyways, look, I'm not saying that you shouldn't jump through the hoops on the way to medical school. That's what ya gotta do, and that's fine.

 

But I hope that you'll make choices based on what's right for you, and not just what you think will get you into medical school. You'll get into med school for being successful at the things that you do, and that'll be much easier in an environment that you love, doing things that you are passionate about.

 

And if you're choosing to do life sciences because you think that'll get you into medicine more easily, then you may just not be right. My experience has been that it's an ASSET to be in a major that makes you stand out from the crowd a little. Besides the fact that it's damn hard to get good grades if you don't love what you are studying.

 

May I ask why you transferred from University of Toronto to York University?

Lots of reasons. The primary one was that I didn't like the environment at U of T. To me, it felt very cold and very superior. If a prof set aside 3 hours of office hours a week, then I totally wouldn't have felt comfortable visiting his office at any other time. At York, I know I can drop in any time, and my profs will never mind. At U of T, not one of my profs knew my name. At York, they all do. I don't feel like my profs consider teaching some menial task that they are required to do in between their research. At U of T, I often felt intimidated about joining clubs and things. They made such a big, formal deal about everything they did. (I know tons of people like things that way, but I don't.) At York, things are really laid-back, and it's so easy to get involved. A million other reasons, too.

 

I definitely don't mean to claim that York is a "better" place to do undergrad. It has its faults too. For ME, there was no doubt that York was the right place to be. That may not hold for you; you need to figure that out for yourself.

 

SORRY!!!!!

No worries; sorry if I offended YOU.

[Guest krnboy]

apology accepted

 

just kidding :rollin

 

I wasn't offended

 

Anyways, thanks for your great advice

[Guest 0T6]

Hey krnboy,

I just finished UT 1st year life sci, and academically, I had a great time and ended the year with a great GPA. You said somewhere that you're willing to do all the homework, review notes, etc. etc., and if you can actually hold yourself to do that over the entire year, you will have no problem getting at least a 3.7 GPA (80+) and there's a good chance you'll get somewhere from a 3.8-3.9. Just another note, there's this myth that your marks drop off from high school.. in my case, all of my grades went up from my OAC grades in corresponding courses.

Nonacademically, UT is a different story. It is massive and impersonal. I joined maybe 5 or 6 clubs at the start of the year, and after the first month or so I really had no interest because they were so big and inconvenient if you live off-campus. Regarding profs not knowing your name and just being a number - it depends. If you never introduce yourself or email your prof with questions or get into argume.. umm.. debates about material being taught, then of course they won't know you! So it all comes down to what you make of it.

Anyways, if you have any more questions bout 1st year at UT, feel free to ask.

good luck with your decision

[Guest tantastic]

I think you will find that the number of people in life sciences who want to be doctors is about 80% at all schools not just UofT. I don't think the number nose dives to 2 or 3 people by the end, probably more like 20-30% of the life sciences program and out of those maybe 10-15% really stand a chance of getting accepted.

 

UofT is a tough school. I transfered to York and found it much easier as did many who switched with me. I also took some transfer courses at Guelph and boy oh boy if you don't get 85-90 there, you have some serious issues.

So I think schools do have different levels of difficulty, I have experienced them myself

 

BTW Peachy, I know your reason for switching was the "impersonal environment" etc. but I'm curious to know didn't you find your GPA increased once you got to York

[Guest Cloudancing]

Hey I just finished my first year there. I was in that same boat last year. I didn't know where I was going to go. Mostly what confused me was the fact that York was offering money and U of T wasn't. I couldn't figure out what the difference was between the two. Sometimes I still can't.

 

I ended up picking U of T because I didn't know what I wanted to do in my undergrad (I did sort of but I wasn't sure I wanted to commit to it). Both York and U of T offer a wide array of programs and if you know what you want it makes your decision a lot easier. But I did not. Knowing myself I knew there was the possibility that I would switch to something else. And low and behold, I ended up choosing a major that York doesn't offer as a degree (last time I checked). So it worked out.

 

I won't even lie. Peachy is right about U of T for the most part. It can be very impersonal and cold. No one is going to smile at you or ask you how you are doing. People spend a lot of time on their cell phones and some people, not all, are consumed with getting the highest grades possible. To me, it was a dose of reality. A taste of life in the real world without anyone there to shield me.

 

If you want to laugh and have fun and be a part of sports and clubs at school. I suggest you don't come to U of T. OT6 is right about the clubs. If you are a commuter, there is almost no way you will be able to enjoy the clubs and student life.

 

The teaching is good. And if you speak up and make yourself heard, the profs will know your name (depending on what you take).

 

To sum up, I think and I've heard from a lot of my friends that York is a more relaxed environment to learn in. U of T is more stuffy. Figure out what kind of environment you thrive best in and go there. Reputations mean nothing when it comes to med school. It's all about the GPA. They don't care if you went to U of T or York or wherever.

 

And remember, if you pick a university and then you find out that you don't like it, you can always transfer. No big deal. Find where you think you fit in, and go there.

[Guest jmh2005]

First of all I would like to say 'congrats to you' krnboy for getting into all those top-notched programs, that in itself (especially this year) is quite commendable, good work!!

 

All 3 schools would provide you with an amazing education I'm certain, and likely all will provide you with a variety and wealth of experiences.

 

I have to admit, I'm biased...I'm a Mac grad with 2 degrees and, if all goes well I'll have my MD from here in less than 2 years.... I think McMaster is an outstanding school. Unfortunately, when I began my 1st year, they didn't have the Health Sciences program...I would have done that in a heartbeat!! I have heard nothing but very good things from this program...it seems to have quite the mix of everything, lots of pure science, applied science and a some seminar and PBL courses as well. This type of education would hold you in good stead when you write the MCAT as verbal and the writing sample require skills not typically honed in your typical science undergrad. But, with this being said, you can always take non-science electives to help round-out your education, no matter where you study.

 

Hamilton as a city leaves quite a bit to be desired (but I think living in downtown Toronto does too...), but where the university is, in the West end (Westdale/Dundas), you wouldn't even know you are in 'steel-town'...all the amenities are there for you (and a real sence of community), the residence system is excellent (I'm a Woodstock Hall alum...) and they have improved the food from what I hear, much more healthier options finally! Socially and academically, Mac has it all in my opinion, the faculty are friendly (especially in Health Sci) and very open (they individually go over exams/tests/essays with you at your request!)...

 

I think Peachy had some great questions for you to ask yourself...really, what are you looking to get out of your 3 or 4 years of pre-med and what do YOU expect from your school?? This is key, because from what I know, each of these schools would provide you with a vastly different experience of undergraduate education (irrespective of the actual course work...)...Make sure you make an informed decision, from what I can tell, it sounds like you are doing your homework, talk to more people, visit the campuses....and good luck with your decision!!! Let us know what you decide!!

[Guest peachy]

BTW Peachy, I know your reason for switching was the "impersonal environment" etc. but I'm curious to know didn't you find your GPA increased once you got to York

LOL. Yes, my GPA went up. But I honestly don't think it was because the courses were easier. I'm not a life sciences student, so my experiences are likely to be quite different from yours, I guess.

 

For me, though, I was extremely intimidated at U of T. I didn't think I was capable of doing well. Profs would say things like "Don't even BOTHER studying this section unless you're a top student", and I'd say, "Ok, I'll ignore that all then." I'd go into tests frantically nervous, and would sometimes even miss a page of the test.

 

When I switched to York, I made a decision that I was going to get amazing grades, and that was it. I studied much harder, but more importantly was more focussed and made better decisions. It's all about attitude. I get better grades now.

 

The CS courses I have taken at York have definitely not been easier than the ones I took at U of T. I didn't do any life science courses at U of T, so I guess I don't know if they are easier...

 

What year are you in, tantastic? I wonder if I know you.

[Guest mying]

Uh oh, here we go again. It's time for me to put on my superhero cape and defend Guelph again.

 

First of all, Tantastic is right. There are variations in difficulty between schools and there is a good reason why.

 

First, curving. If a school curves, and few do these days, and you're on the lower end of the class range of 70-90, you'll get a lower grade -- even fail. If a school doesn't curve, and you all get 70-90 in the class, you'll get the mark you get.

 

Second, teaching. If a school prides itself on excellent teaching methods and teachers, as opposed to just lecturers, then you'll have an easier time of learning because the teacher is doing things to help you learn.

 

Third, class sizes. This kind of ties in with the above point. Hence why people who go to small schools, like St. Francis Xavier, often do very well in school. The material may be no different, but for people who thrive on discussion and individual attention, small class size may be key. The difference between 400 and 1000 in a class may not seem like much but if nothing else, it gives you easier access to your professors.

 

Fourth, atmosphere between students. It counts for something. That said, people who like to be independent and competitive are going to like Toronto, whereas those who like to be groupies and helpful are going to like Guelph, and there's nothing wrong with either attitude.

 

Fifth, and something you cannot necessarily see from fleeting samples, is the simple difference between courses and their marking schemes. Guelph's Physics for the Life Sci course is designed such that you will get high grades as long as you stick to a simple schedule and don't fall behind. There was a theory kicking around that if you did 1st year physics at Guelph, 1st year chemistry at Mac, Orgo at York, etc. etc. you'd have the best grades ever (I may have messed up the other schools, it's been a long time since I've thought about it). Also, obviously, something like first year chem at Guelph (aka Killer Chem) is going to be significantly tougher than, say... fourth year beverage management. Taking Statistics in the summer was known to be easier than during the rest of the year because of who taught it. Things like that.

 

I took the equivalent Organic Chem at Toronto and at Guelph. It covered much more material at Guelph. To compare the midterm exams... there is no comparison. But it was taught much better at Guelph, and the professor was extremely approachable instead of the snarky guy at Toronto. And the labs were so much more fun -- smaller groups, better design, better set-up. So YES it was easier to get higher grades at Guelph, but that doesn't mean Guelph sells you short in your education. Besides, the BioMed program (which I wasn't in) is probably one of the most definitively preparatory courses for med I've ever seen... but I can't really speak from experience. I taught a group from that program their Advanced Medical First Responder course a few weekends ago and they were outdoing me on anatomy. *sigh*

 

When you get right down to it... all the universities in Canada are excellent ones and overall your academic experience will be the same no matter which one you go to. The med admissions folks know this and that is why they do not discriminate based on your undergrad school.

 

Unless you're planning some undergraduate program or research that is unique to a particular university, the main thing that is going to vary is the atmosphere of the school. The things that happen outside of the classroom and textbooks that are going to determine your happiness, state of mind, and general wellbeing. If you're depressed by lack of subway trains, you're not going to be studying very hard at Laurentian.

 

So it's the simple things, like

- do you like concrete?

- do you like debating?

- do you need a night life?

- do you really need small classes?

- do you want to live at home?

- do you think my tractor's sexy?

and such like that that really define the differences between the schools.

[Guest krnboy]

oh..so York Univ is indeed easier to get better marks than UofT :lol

 

Thanks for your great replies.

I'll have to think this over.

[Guest Chowchilla]

i just finished first year life sci and uoft...and i HATED IT.

 

not the university mind you...uoft's great. i love the buildings, the clubs, the stores around campus. it's awesome.

 

what i hated though were the classes. sitting in convocation hall for a class isn't really the greatest thing. they try and make it personal for labs and all but hey, let's face it...the ta's dont really give a damn about you (that's what my chem ta said anyways). my marks were horrid, and i seemed to have confirmed (more than just a little) to the 'marks go down 15' rule that was printed on my frosh handout. hmm. marks go down 25 is more like it.

 

anyways, im hoping 2nd year is a little better because im planning to take smaller classes (non science), plus i have a research position to look forward to. and maybe the profs might finally learn my name...

[Guest krnboy]

:|

 

*About to cross out UofT Life Science off my list*

[Guest 0T6]

*About to cross out UofT Life Science off my list*

 

Why?

[Guest krnboy]

nevermind

[Guest cheech10]

Totally depends on your learning style. I found UofT cold and impersonal for undergrad, which was perfect for me. I didn't talk to a single prof or TA, I just went to class, got the notes, and went home to study them. There is no discussion or questioning during lectures (for the big life sci classes, at least, they start to creep up in 3rd year) which was nice because I just wanted to get out of lecture as soon as possible. Also, you don't get as many of the "ask a question to show the prof how much I know" during lectures (there is some in tutorial); another plus because that's another behaviour that gets me teed off. So if you like this style of teaching, UofT is no problem. If you want more personal contact, direction, and explanation, you'll probably find it better elsewhere.

 

Chowchilla - I hate that things like that are written on frosh handbooks. Many people continue to get excellent marks at UofT, and remarks like "expect a 15% drop in marks" do no good except to demoralize students at the start of the year, precisely when they should be supported and motivated. Motivation really is an integral part of striving to get high marks at any school.

[Guest mying]

remarks like "expect a 15% drop in marks" do no good except to demoralize students at the start of the year

 

Absolutely! If you tell someone they will do poorly, then they probably will! It would be so much more helpful if frosh handbooks actually gave advice for avoiding that drop rather than just accepting it straight up.

[Guest 0T6]

remarks like "expect a 15% drop in marks" do no good except to demoralize students at the start of the year

 

Actually, hearing that at the beginning of the year together with warnings from senior students about how much harder you need to work kinda motivated me, got the rebel inside of me wanting to break the tradition and do better in univ than in HS