Questions About Applying To Mcmaster

[ubcdude]

It's quickly becoming apparent to me, that the only medical school I will be able to apply to is McMaster. As to why, the answer is simple. I suck at the pre requisites for most medical schools besides the biology/humanities/social science/English ones. I can't do physics, calculus, or organic chemistry. I am maintaining a high GPA and plan to write only the verbal reasoning or CARS section of the MCAT soon. I've done well in the few practice tests for verbal reasoning in the past so fingers crossed I get a good score. 

 

Furthermore, I will be applying out of province, in my third year, as I am from BC. Does anyone here know how many people apply to McMaster OOP every year? And how many get accepted?

 

 

Should I also take a full course load in my third year or does McMaster not care about it? 

 

 

Any general tips to make it into McMaster OOP? 

 

 

And last thing. How can I study for CASPER and the CARS section of the MCAT? Any good resources anyone can recommend please?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[GrumpyMoriarty]

I am actually from UBC, and am attending Mac Med in the fall after my 3rd undergrad year at UBC so i believe I can be of some help.

 

1) Mac just requires a final transcript of 30 half-year courses (that's approx. 90 credits at ubc)

2) Try to be stunning during your MMI, or at least not blow it

3) CASPER--- learn to type really fast (if you already have good ideas developed), or learn to develop good ideas (if you already have fast typing skills)

4) CARS-- not much experiencee. But for VR I just did loads of practice and try to understand the way MCAT wants you to be thinking for those types of questions. Exam Krackers and Princeton had decent materials for the VR version at least. not sure about CARS

 

Bonus free tip:

 

Most of the pre-reqs listed by other medical schools aren't for whimsical reasons. Not all of the material will be directly needed for future medical practice, but it is expected that you have a solid foundation in basic sciences (yes that includes chem and physics). I strongly urge you to not try and "game" the system by only applying to Mac for the lack of pre-reqs. Even if you do get in, you may not do well if you don't have a strong understanding of basic sciences and that would only work out badly for you (and your potential patients) in the future.

[ubcdude]

I am actually from UBC, and am attending Mac Med in the fall after my 3rd undergrad year at UBC so i believe I can be of some help.

 

1) Mac just requires a final transcript of 30 half-year courses (that's approx. 90 credits at ubc)

2) Try to be stunning during your MMI, or at least not blow it

3) CASPER--- learn to type really fast (if you already have good ideas developed), or learn to develop good ideas (if you already have fast typing skills)

4) CARS-- not much experiencee. But for VR I just did loads of practice and try to understand the way MCAT wants you to be thinking for those types of questions. Exam Krackers and Princeton had decent materials for the VR version at least. not sure about CARS

 

Bonus free tip:

 

Most of the pre-reqs listed by other medical schools aren't for whimsical reasons. Not all of the material will be directly needed for future medical practice, but it is expected that you have a solid foundation in basic sciences (yes that includes chem and physics). I strongly urge you to not try and "game" the system by only applying to Mac for the lack of pre-reqs. Even if you do get in, you may not do well if you don't have a strong understanding of basic sciences and that would only work out badly for you (and your potential patients) in the future.

 

 

Thank you for your input. 

 

From the research I have done on this forum and from talking to some medical school students, I have been told that you'll never actually apply any of the stuff you learn in classes like ochem and everything you need to be a successful physician is taught to you in med school. I spoke with the admissions office at McMaster as well and they told me that sciences aren't needed and they admit many non science students every year. I'm just not very good in things like organic chemistry. I am good at biology and have taken more than just the general bio classes. I've also taken a bunch of health science classes and some anatomy but chemistry I suck. I got a D on one of the exams and withdrew from the course because I knew I was going to fail. Right now my GPA is 3.9 and I'm trying to keep it up there. I don't want to screw up my GPA by taking extremely difficult physics/organic chem courses. 

[Organomegaly]

You don't need physics or orgo to be a good doctor. hardly any med schools even require these anymore. Mac and Queens has no pre-reqs...U of T has very light pre-reqs and certainly they don't ask for orgo or physics. Mac has been churning out docs with no pre-reqs for decades now and the studies show that by the end all the physician outcomes are the same. And other schools are shifting to including more liberal fields by eliminating pre-reqs - many schools already have, and U of T published a paper on if the MCAT/pre-req requirements were actually restricting the types of applicants to the detriment of medicine. So all of these traditional med school courses are not as important as people think, and this is coming from someone who took them.

 

Where I agree with Grumpy is in trying to game the system for a high GPA...this honestly just sounds like a road to misery in some ways. Although I would never suggest you bulk your schedule with lots of intense crap for the sake of it, it's not really worth it to avoid interesting courses to maintain that precious 3.9. Your mental health and happiness first.

[ubcdude]

You don't need physics or orgo to be a good doctor. hardly any med schools even require these anymore. Mac and Queens has no pre-reqs...U of T has very light pre-reqs and certainly they don't ask for orgo or physics. Mac has been churning out docs with no pre-reqs for decades now and the studies show that by the end all the physician outcomes are the same. And other schools are shifting to including more liberal fields by eliminating pre-reqs - many schools already have, and U of T published a paper on if the MCAT/pre-req requirements were actually restricting the types of applicants to the detriment of medicine. So all of these traditional med school courses are not as important as people think, and this is coming from someone who took them.

 

Where I agree with Grumpy is in trying to game the system for a high GPA...this honestly just sounds like a road to misery in some ways. Although I would never suggest you bulk your schedule with lots of intense crap for the sake of it, it's not really worth it to avoid interesting courses to maintain that precious 3.9. Your mental health and happiness first.

 

 

Ok good to know. But I think that a lot of schools in Canada still need the MCAT. And for the MCAT, to get a good score you need to have good knowledge of chemistry right? 

 

 

I don't limit myself to taking only easy classes but I try to avoid ones which I know will absolutely wreck my GPA. 

[Organomegaly]

you'll need a 9 in PS as a minimum for some Ontario schools, like Toronto, queens and even western (which is basically the most intense MCAT school out there for non-SWOMENs - they don't care much about the PS either). If you are someone who get's Ds in chemistry, you might have trouble reaching a 9 PS. That being said, for most people its not that hard to reach that 9, and in fact verbal is what usually slaps people in the face on the MCAT. for that reason, betting on just mac, especially when it receives 5000+ applications, is not a good idea. it doesn't mean you need to take orgo or chem though...just do well enough on the MCAT PS to get a shot at these other schools that don't discount it completely but ultimately don't give it much weight either

[Edict]

Odd to say this but do what you need to maintain that GPA haha, Lets face it, interesting courses are nice but you can do them on your own time, getting a competitive GPA is number one because its one of the more difficult things to fix. 

[JohnGrisham]

Why " can't [you] do physics, calculus, or organic chemistry" ? 

Honestly, that is a pretty bad attitude. Yes, you won't directly need to know alot of it(I'll disagree in that a decent understanding of basic chemistry and physics is helpful in some fields), but the fact that you say you can't "do it" is a terrible thought process.

Spending the time and grunt work to LEARN how to do those classes would be excellent preparation for medical school - which will likely cover topics that are WAY harder than 100 level physics and ochem. 

You should really rethink your outlook on learning. You should be able to learn, how to learn those 3 classes, not for the purpose of the content - but to prove to yourself that you can master a topic you personally find difficult. Especially with the abundance of resources available, you should be able to find a way to master the material.

Much of the purpose of undergrad, is learning HOW to learn.

Also, you're throwing out an excellent situation of being IP at UBC, just because you're too lazy to learn a few basic undergrad classes.

As for worrying about your 3.9 GPA(i'm guessing you go to SFU since you mentioned health science classes lol. If so, and you have 4.3's from A+s, i would recalculate your GPA as 4.3's dont exist elsewhere, they will be 4.0) is a fair point to think of. BUT, you can simply learn the material on your own if you feel like it will take you longer - BEFORE you register for the class at your school. That way you'll enter the class, already knowing the core material - and can fine tune your understanding through practice, tutorials and such, to get your 4.0s. By not taking these classes, you are throwing away options at UBC, and many other schools that do have pre-reqs.

[ubcdude]

Why " can't [you] do physics, calculus, or organic chemistry" ? 

 

Honestly, that is a pretty bad attitude. Yes, you won't directly need to know alot of it(I'll disagree in that a decent understanding of basic chemistry and physics is helpful in some fields), but the fact that you say you can't "do it" is a terrible thought process.

 

Spending the time and grunt work to LEARN how to do those classes would be excellent preparation for medical school - which will likely cover topics that are WAY harder than 100 level physics and ochem. 

 

You should really rethink your outlook on learning. You should be able to learn, how to learn those 3 classes, not for the purpose of the content - but to prove to yourself that you can master a topic you personally find difficult. Especially with the abundance of resources available, you should be able to find a way to master the material.

 

Much of the purpose of undergrad, is learning HOW to learn.

 

Also, you're throwing out an excellent situation of being IP at UBC, just because you're too lazy to learn a few basic undergrad classes.

 

As for worrying about your 3.9 GPA(i'm guessing you go to SFU since you mentioned health science classes lol. If so, and you have 4.3's from A+s, i would recalculate your GPA as 4.3's dont exist elsewhere, they will be 4.0) is a fair point to think of. BUT, you can simply learn the material on your own if you feel like it will take you longer - BEFORE you register for the class at your school. That way you'll enter the class, already knowing the core material - and can fine tune your understanding through practice, tutorials and such, to get your 4.0s. By not taking these classes, you are throwing away options at UBC, and many other schools that do have pre-reqs.

 

I don't know why. It's not that I can't do it completely, it's just that I suck at them. It'll bring down my GPA for sure because I wouldn't be able to get more than a C probably. And I was at SFU for my first year but transferred to UBC and now I'm in my third year. 

[roro2555]

also another point Casper is something that is really tricky. There is no logical method to prepare for it because from what I understand the marking of Casper is also really variant. It depends on who is marking it and how they interpret what you have written very hastily. To be honest I still look at interview invite to Mac with quite surprise considering I had a poor verbal score. You really should expand your skills set such that you can apply to other schools. Setting your sights on a single school especially out of province is going to be unlikely. If you can't meet these pre reqs you should really contemplate how you are going to manage the challenges of medical school. As per pre reqs I think that is false. All of cardio physiology is physics, chemistry comes into play with acid base and blood gases. These concepts aren't foreign but integrated with a clinical focus. Yes you could be a doc that doesn't spend time understanding and just memorizing but then again those aren't going to be the docs that will be critical thinkers that will expand the field of medicine.

 

If you know these are subjects that you will find challenging. Get a tutor! Do prep courses. I know prep101 would offer review sessions at McGill for these classes to help with individuals who were finding the material challenging. Being proactive about these subjects will make the difference. I was not good at physics but I found friends and material to help me achieve my goals. Getting into medical school isn't easy. It really is about determination and hard work. If this is something you want you have to find ways to achieve it not circumvent the problem outright

[JohnGrisham]

I don't know why. It's not that I can't do it completely, it's just that I suck at them. It'll bring down my GPA for sure because I wouldn't be able to get more than a C probably. And I was at SFU for my first year but transferred to UBC and now I'm in my third year.

Sounds like a poor excuse. Sorry for the tough love, but if you can't muster it up to take a 100 lvl class and use the advice I gave you above...good luck.

[ubcdude]

also another point Casper is something that is really tricky. There is no logical method to prepare for it because from what I understand the marking of Casper is also really variant. It depends on who is marking it and how they interpret what you have written very hastily. To be honest I still look at interview invite to Mac with quite surprise considering I had a poor verbal score. You really should expand your skills set such that you can apply to other schools. Setting your sights on a single school especially out of province is going to be unlikely. If you can't meet these pre reqs you should really contemplate how you are going to manage the challenges of medical school. As per pre reqs I think that is false. All of cardio physiology is physics, chemistry comes into play with acid base and blood gases. These concepts aren't foreign but integrated with a clinical focus. Yes you could be a doc that doesn't spend time understanding and just memorizing but then again those aren't going to be the docs that will be critical thinkers that will expand the field of medicine.

 

If you know these are subjects that you will find challenging. Get a tutor! Do prep courses. I know prep101 would offer review sessions at McGill for these classes to help with individuals who were finding the material challenging. Being proactive about these subjects will make the difference. I was not good at physics but I found friends and material to help me achieve my goals. Getting into medical school isn't easy. It really is about determination and hard work. If this is something you want you have to find ways to achieve it not circumvent the problem outright

 

 

Alright thanks, I'll look into it and retake orgo. 

[sdj78we9jtf2o3mgfvj298j]

Sounds like a poor excuse. Sorry for the tough love, but if you can't muster it up to take a 100 lvl class and use the advice I gave you above...good luck.

You aren't being very helpful. He recognizes that he isn't strong in certain subjects and I'm sure there are some classes you weren't strong at either. If he doesn't want to take the classes then he doesn't have to.

 

To OP, the orgo and physics required on the MCAT is minimal and easily managed with self-studying. You don't need a very high score in physics either to qualify for all of the Canadian med schools. I wouldn't rely on getting into Mac OOP since they accept less than 10 people each year. I'd say look at your options and see what you can apply to without taking the traditional premed courses.

 

However, you should anticipate that you might need to take orgo in 4th year because your best chance will always be at UBC. Your GPA in 4th year doesn't matter much anyway, assuming that you get in after 4th year.

 

You don't need physics or calculus at all, really.

[JohnGrisham]

You aren't being very helpful. He recognizes that he isn't strong in certain subjects and I'm sure there are some classes you weren't strong at either. If he doesn't want to take the classes then he doesn't have to.

 

To OP, the orgo and physics required on the MCAT is minimal and easily managed with self-studying. You don't need a very high score in physics either to qualify for all of the Canadian med schools. I wouldn't rely on getting into Mac OOP since they accept less than 10 people each year. I'd say look at your options and see what you can apply to without taking the traditional premed courses.

 

However, you should anticipate that you might need to take orgo in 4th year because your best chance will always be at UBC. Your GPA in 4th year doesn't matter much anyway, assuming that you get in after 4th year.

 

You don't need physics or calculus at all, really.

Fair, my post above that was more than helpful with guidance. After that, people just need to take their own ownership.

[ubcdude]

You aren't being very helpful. He recognizes that he isn't strong in certain subjects and I'm sure there are some classes you weren't strong at either. If he doesn't want to take the classes then he doesn't have to.

 

To OP, the orgo and physics required on the MCAT is minimal and easily managed with self-studying. You don't need a very high score in physics either to qualify for all of the Canadian med schools. I wouldn't rely on getting into Mac OOP since they accept less than 10 people each year. I'd say look at your options and see what you can apply to without taking the traditional premed courses.

 

However, you should anticipate that you might need to take orgo in 4th year because your best chance will always be at UBC. Your GPA in 4th year doesn't matter much anyway, assuming that you get in after 4th year.

 

You don't need physics or calculus at all, really.

 

 

Thanks for the info, I will take orgo in 4th year and get a tutor. 

[PDFChemist]

Deleted a doublepost. My phone got confused when I tried to edit.

[PDFChemist]

A couple suggestions (coming from an organic chemist and someone interested in learning in general.

 

1) Take a MOOC over the summer. Or use MIT open courseware: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/chemistry/

Or use Khan academy. 100% of people have subjects they are weak at, or poorly prepared for. There is nothing wrong with pre-preparing for a course while there is no danger to you. Try just being just able to learn something without the fear of failing, destruction of dreams, etc. It can do wonders for learning. Set yourself up for success.

 

2) Try to approach Org. Chem. from a "deep learning" perspective. This is easy in our own fields, but tougher in unfamiliar diciplines - as it can be hard to determine what is worth learning deeply. This will be much more interesting as well, if you are going to give up some summer free time.

 

3) Try to be interested! Hahaha, I know, easier said than done. Maybe I can help. Remember, almost every phamecutical was built using org chem (Wikipedia has links to many, if not most, of these). Much of the human body's chemistry can be understood using org chem. The big analytical techniques (NMR/MRI, mass-spec, IR) are all actively used in medicine (albeit in different ways). Reading about them can counter the boredom.

 

4) Try to think like a chemist, even just for a few months. The discussion of carinogens, additives, chemicals, etc. Is everywhere. The issue is entirely chemical, and usually organic, yet people can't tell caffeine from insulin. Ask yourself, why do people think parabens might be bad (I.e. what is it about their structure). How about bisphenol A? Pesticides? What's the difference between ecstacy and meth? What does that difference do? Heroin? Everything, really! What is it? What's it's structure.

 

Now, I don't really think a doctor "needs" all this. Not taking organic chem, or taking a shallow approach (memorizing) is fine. In fact, it's probably time efficient - if it works for you.

 

But, it seems like it doesn't. So why not try a different approach. Emerse yourself in it, in your own time, get rid of the feeling of "obligation" and use it as a place to expand!

[GrumpyMoriarty]

BTW one final point to OP-- don't bank all your hopes on one school, especially an OOP school.

 

Yes I did that this year by only applying to Mac as an OOP student and by some crazy miracle it worked... But it was quite touch-and-go for awhile and I feel like things might have been easier had I applied more broadly to a bunch of schools. In my case, many factors worked together to reduce my options down to a singular school, but I feel like if you have the summer (or perhaps even another full year to prepare), definitely try to apply to as many schools as possible, IP and OOP.

[Uphill]

I would second the advice provided by a few above to consider a tutor, and Khan academy (I love that site !)

 

When you say you "can't do" physics or chem, I would encourage you to consider that you have perhaps just not had a teacher that is able to teach it to you the way that you need to learn it. I took my gen chem at U of T, and got a 51% on my first exam. I felt like I "could not do chem" But then I considered the variables other than myself, including the instructor for the course, who began by telling us to take a good look at the person on either side of us because this was going to be really hard and at least one of the people on either side of us would fail. The guy was some sort of genius chem protege, but he couldn't teach his way out of a box. When the class average is a C, the material probably isn't being taught effectively. In any case, I decided to ignore his classes, got myself a tutor and scored an 85 on the second exam (with less study time put in than for my first exam).

 

My point is: maybe you can do chem and physics or maybe you can't but you can't know for sure until you have tried to learn it in different ways and from different people.