Mcgill Med Program Put On Probation?

[bearded frog 702]

 

How's that working out for you now?

[Organomegaly 320]

probation is no big deal. the mcgill name is enough to carry a student to the upper echelons of american academic medicine. its up there with harvard.

 

wow seriously? I'm pretty U of T does far more research nowadays but I wouldn't know

[Username92 85]

 

How's that working out for you now?

 

It's actually working out pretty good, the new curriculum was noted as a strenght by the new comitee. McGill still has some overlap with the old one, thus the problems

[sleeping_sickness 56]

To name a few things I think are more worrying:

Frequent work hour violations (I'm sure it happens everywhere but if you have a written policy you should probably stick to it)

Inadequate supervision of clerks (inability to reach on call attending)

Inadequate mental health services for students and student reluctance to access these services

 

These were all serious issues during clerkship. Failure to report mistreatment was another. another issue was not feeling like you could take a day off to go see a doc or a dentist. Hopefully this will be remedied with the new flex day policy.

it was also very difficult to take care of yourself in most rotations. While there were regulations in place to help protect the students, i don't think that most residents were aware of these regulations and you didn't want to be the only student speaking up after 12 hours asking to go home. this made it very difficult to have proper study time. I really hope that McGill does a proper job addressing these issues. The first 2 years of med school were some of the best i've experienced. The clinical setting was another matter. it really wore me down and burnt me out. it was the main reason why i chose to leave mcgill. i couldn't face spending more time in montreal hospitals knowing how poorly things function compared to elsewhere in canada. 

[LittleDaisy 289]

Thanks for sharing sleeping_sickness.

That was one of the main reason that my friend ranked UofT internal first 

These were all serious issues during clerkship. Failure to report mistreatment was another. another issue was not feeling like you could take a day off to go see a doc or a dentist. Hopefully this will be remedied with the new flex day policy.

it was also very difficult to take care of yourself in most rotations. While there were regulations in place to help protect the students, i don't think that most residents were aware of these regulations and you didn't want to be the only student speaking up after 12 hours asking to go home. this made it very difficult to have proper study time. I really hope that McGill does a proper job addressing these issues. The first 2 years of med school were some of the best i've experienced. The clinical setting was another matter. it really wore me down and burnt me out. it was the main reason why i chose to leave mcgill. i couldn't face spending more time in montreal hospitals knowing how poorly things function compared to elsewhere in canada. 

[sleeping_sickness 56]

I agree with many other posters here; even issues in administrative nature can reflect serious problems under the surface. With accreditation standards publicly available, and the importance of keeping accreditation, the cited recurrent non-compliance means either a culture of disrespect of the accreditation process, or the inability of the leadership to mobilize resources to achieve even seemingly simple goals.

 

And, slow grade turnaround should not be something to laugh about. Imagine how students will feel in such situations, especially for those who are on the margin of pass. What happened to the communication channel between the student body and the faculty? Being a decent program really boils down to such small but important details.

slow grade turnaround was a serious issue. there were rotations where you would wait 8-10 weeks to get your grades. I remember getting grades for a rotation that had just finished within 2-3 weeks but still not having heard anything from the previous rotation! until reading this document i was not aware that grades were supposed to be submitted within 6 weeks. 

[amichel 559]

These were all serious issues during clerkship. Failure to report mistreatment was another. another issue was not feeling like you could take a day off to go see a doc or a dentist. Hopefully this will be remedied with the new flex day policy.

it was also very difficult to take care of yourself in most rotations. While there were regulations in place to help protect the students, i don't think that most residents were aware of these regulations and you didn't want to be the only student speaking up after 12 hours asking to go home. this made it very difficult to have proper study time. I really hope that McGill does a proper job addressing these issues. The first 2 years of med school were some of the best i've experienced. The clinical setting was another matter. it really wore me down and burnt me out. it was the main reason why i chose to leave mcgill. i couldn't face spending more time in montreal hospitals knowing how poorly things function compared to elsewhere in canada.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. Nice to hear from someone who's been through school there.

[LittleDaisy 289]

I happened to read this on social media: http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2013/03/medical-resident-says-he-was-punished-for-standing-up-for-patients/

 

If that was true, it is truly terrible for the medical residents and the medical students to report mistreatment. Being in medical school and facing CaRMS in a few years put a lot of us in academic and personal stress. It would be appreciated to have a medical faculty that will support the medical students in the cases of mistreatment and misdiagnosis.  I would have personally felt frustrated if I were that resident in family medicine at McGill. 

slow grade turnaround was a serious issue. there were rotations where you would wait 8-10 weeks to get your grades. I remember getting grades for a rotation that had just finished within 2-3 weeks but still not having heard anything from the previous rotation! until reading this document i was not aware that grades were supposed to be submitted within 6 weeks. 

[roro2555 46]

wow seriously? I'm pretty U of T does far more research nowadays but I wouldn't know

As someone who did his research at McGill and now looking for a position at Toronto; Toronto is far better funded for clinical epi research and able to do more innovative projects and just has more to offer (its almost overwhelming) 

 

As well as the fact that McGill's reputation is great but being here for the past 4 years this reputation is starting to go downhill because the quality is just not there as whole for the institution; 

[makingfetchhappen 230]

probation is no big deal. the mcgill name is enough to carry a student to the upper echelons of american academic medicine. its up there with harvard.

 

it is true that a very good surrogate marker for a department's or program's quality is the quality of their administrative staff. 

Really? That's surprising. In my field no Canadian school is Harvard.

 

If there is a position that requires ivey league credentials, you need to go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Oxford, etc. 

 

Also, U of T is the top school in my field*, and McGill is just one among the other top schools that aren't U of T. And this isn't just in Canada, the top NYC firms recruit way more heavily out of U of T than McGill, and I don't even think McGill gets any more attention than the top Ontario schools and UBC from NYC or elsewhere in the States. 

 

*In case anyone thinks I am biased, I will add that I didn't go there, lol

[MD2015 52]

Well, McGill's reputation is now tarnished and is deemed be just another mortal like all other Canadian medical schools. Once the work is out internationally, the prior international reputation for its med school will take a blow internationally.

[meer 6]

McGill med's Maclean's ranking may suffer for the next few years but it will take much more than this to affect McGill's reputation in the long-term. Remember that the probationary period only lasts two years, which is ample time for the faculty to address the (mainly administrative) issues raised. If anything, this will act as an incentive to improve the training of current and future medical students. The only way McGill's reputation will "take a blow internationally" is if it consistently graduates individuals with subpar competencies thereby affecting program directors' general perception of the school. 

 

Well, McGill's reputation is now tarnished and is deemed be just another mortal like all other Canadian medical schools. Once the work is out internationally, the prior international reputation for its med school will take a blow internationally.

[3change 38]

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[3change 38]

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[thatonekid 81]

McGill med's Maclean's ranking may suffer for the next few years but it will take much more than this to affect McGill's reputation in the long-term. Remember that the probationary period only lasts two years, which is ample time for the faculty to address the (mainly administrative) issues raised. If anything, this will act as an incentive to improve the training of current and future medical students. The only way McGill's reputation will "take a blow internationally" is if it consistently graduates individuals with subpar competencies thereby affecting program directors' general perception of the school. 

 

Agreed. I doubt this really impacts McGill's rep in the long term. McGill will fix its issues and that'll be it.

[makingfetchhappen 230]

Agreed. While McGill is a huge name in Canada, everyone from all stretches of the planet knows what Harvard is.

 

I seriously don't think probation will affect McGill that much. Its prestige still exists in the minds of the people and by word of mouth. It has momentum.

 

Since we are talking about Harvard, I had to add this:

 

 

[peace2014 40]

Could this happen due to the cuts to McGill from the Quebec government? I heard that infrastructure at McGill needs improvement but the cuts from government are not helping....

[LittleDaisy 289]

Not really   The accreditation authority addressed some administrative issues and some major medical curriculum issues. It takes actually time and effort, money can't fix everything. 

 

Now the French medical schools in Quebec passed the accreditation fine, my school received a lot positive comments. We receive less funding than McGill Medicine (donations and research funding) , I am saying this, because my McGill friends get summer research bursary so easily (almost 100%) and they receive a lot of academic bursaries. 

Could this happen due to the cuts to McGill from the Quebec government? I heard that infrastructure at McGill needs improvement but the cuts from government are not helping....

[bananasinpyjamas 42]

Not really   The accreditation authority addressed some administrative issues and some major medical curriculum issues. It takes actually time and effort, money can't fix everything. 

 

Now the French medical schools in Quebec passed the accreditation fine, my school received a lot positive comments. We receive less funding than McGill Medicine (donations and research funding) , I am saying this, because my McGill friends get summer research bursary so easily (almost 100%) and they receive a lot of academic bursaries. 

They did not address "major medical curriculum issues". This is what they concluded: "The LCME-CACMS preliminary report this spring highlighted our new MDCM curriculum as a strength, describing it as innovative, thoughtful, learner- and patient-centered, and commenting on the commitment and enthusiasm of our faculty and staff. "  

 

While I agree there are things to be improved with the program, I don't think it's fair to say that the curriculum suffers from major issues. The report can be found online on McGill's webpage. 

[Username92 85]

Not really   The accreditation authority addressed some administrative issues and some major medical curriculum issues. It takes actually time and effort, money can't fix everything. 

 

Now the French medical schools in Quebec passed the accreditation fine, my school received a lot positive comments. We receive less funding than McGill Medicine (donations and research funding) , I am saying this, because my McGill friends get summer research bursary so easily (almost 100%) and they receive a lot of academic bursaries. 

 

Yeah well just like you said, it takes time and effort, so when in the midst of a change of curriculum, I wouldn't expect everything to be perfect: as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), Udem, Ulaval and USherb are not currently changing curriculums, thus less likely to be found non-compliant on issues such as class content or administrative work. 

[LittleDaisy 289]

You are absolutely right. I would like to still mention the fact that some of the issues brought up were recurrent and need to be addressed ASAP. Probably everyone has a definition of trivial, the fact that McGill clerks overwork with minimal supervision (or can't reach residents during on call in surgery), the fact that there are no clear objectives and no block on hematology is not that trivial IMO, and the fact that people feel intimidated to feel mistreatment IS DEFINITELY not OKAY. Once again, everyone is so different. 

 

I do believe that the faculty will address the issues shortly, I just want to mention that we are so lucky that we have the accreditation authority who makes sure that the medical education is standardized. 

Yeah well just like you said, it takes time and effort, so when in the midst of a change of curriculum, I wouldn't expect everything to be perfect: as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), Udem, Ulaval and USherb are not currently changing curriculums, thus less likely to be found non-compliant on issues such as class content or administrative work. 

[amichel 559]

You are absolutely right. I would like to still mention the fact that some of the issues brought up were recurrent and need to be addressed ASAP. Probably everyone has a definition of trivial, the fact that McGill clerks overwork with minimal supervision (or can't reach residents during on call in surgery), the fact that there are no clear objectives and no block on hematology is not that trivial IMO, and the fact that people feel intimidated to feel mistreatment IS DEFINITELY not OKAY. Once again, everyone is so different.

 

I do believe that the faculty will address the issues shortly, I just want to mention that we are so lucky that we have the accreditation authority who makes sure that the medical education is standardized.

I can't figure out the hematology thing. It's kinda weird. We had at least a month of hematology.

[Edict 680]

Really? That's surprising. In my field no Canadian school is Harvard.

 

If there is a position that requires ivey league credentials, you need to go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Oxford, etc. 

 

Also, U of T is the top school in my field*, and McGill is just one among the other top schools that aren't U of T. And this isn't just in Canada, the top NYC firms recruit way more heavily out of U of T than McGill, and I don't even think McGill gets any more attention than the top Ontario schools and UBC from NYC or elsewhere in the States. 

 

*In case anyone thinks I am biased, I will add that I didn't go there, lol

 

To be fair anyone with any degree from a decent university can get any job. Its all about who you are as a person, no one looking to hire top talent would completely bar anyone not from the Ivy League or Oxbridge.

 

I feel a bit bad for McGill, the fact that it is from Quebec really hurts its potential when it comes to funding, resident pay, attracting talent. However their new hospital looks amazing. Its interesting that in so many different ways McGill resembles Edinburgh in the UK.. now even in their hospital structure. 

[LittleDaisy 289]

I don't understand it either frankly. I was quite shocked when my friends told me that they were expected to learn hematology by themselves with minimal instructions. I understand that not everyone wants to be hematologist, but it is still important in primary care and in GIM. 

They are some important issues that need to be addressed. 

I mean, McGIll Med is great and attracts some of the world's best clinical-researchers, it is amazing what the medical faculty has accomplished in term of innovational medical research and scientific discoveries. I am sure if the faculty takes more time and effort, the issues will get solved within the deadline. It is really more a wake up call and a good news for the future med students at McGill. Don't take it negatively and I am sorry if my post scared or offended anyone. 

I can't figure out the hematology thing. It's kinda weird. We had at least a month of hematology.

[A-Stark 145]

I agree. Not all trivial

 

1) Lack of appropriate infrastructure at hospitals, including absent call rooms

2) Students not comfortable to report mistreatment due to perceived lack of confidentiality and follow-up

3) Issues with a learner unfriendly environment in the hospitals

4) Inadequate access to mental health or some health services in general at the Gatineau campus

5) Far less administrative attention at the Gatineau campus

6) Violations of workload policy in all clerkship rotations except family and psych

7) Inadequate supervision of clerks in surgery rotations

 

These are not small issues at all. I'm not sure what's more concerning, but "inadequate supervision" is dangerous and medico-legally indefensible. Clerks must be supervised closely. 

 

Dal went through the whole accreditation probation thing when I was there, but there were few and fewer issues like these. I think one hospital was deemed not to have sufficient locker space, but most issues were about curriculum mapping and objectives and other stuff that was a function of the curriculum's not having changed in 15 years or more. 

 

One of my friend did a clinical elective at McGill in GIM. He overworked as a clerk with minimal supervision. He didn't appreciate the fact that a lot of teachings were cancelled last minute, since the preceptors were too busy with research and had some last minute plans. After his clinical elective, he decided to rank UofT over McGill for IM For the better quality of teaching and for the organization of the residency program. 

 

I cannot imagine being at an IM program like UofT's. I learned not so long ago that they need to schedule "backups" for call since people often call in sick randomly and they need someone around to cover. People get away with that sort of thing because the program is so big that you can avoid the peer derision and shaming by calling in "sick". If someone did that in my program, unless they were dying they'd run the risk of their head's ending up on a pike at the main patient entrance as a deterrent to others (except instead they'd just be forced to do call). 

 

probation is no big deal. the mcgill name is enough to carry a student to the upper echelons of american academic medicine. its up there with harvard.

 

It's not a deserved reputation. Certainly at this point McGill does not have any great claim to superior status to any other Canadian med school. 

 

These were all serious issues during clerkship. Failure to report mistreatment was another. another issue was not feeling like you could take a day off to go see a doc or a dentist. Hopefully this will be remedied with the new flex day policy.

 

Hah, welcome to residency.