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Dentistry Program In Canada Worth It Anymore?


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Thank you for posting that seeking1,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you think they'll focus on bringing in people that we need for jobs such as plumbing. 

 

Don't they have quotas for specific jobs?

 

For example - because we probably have enough pharmacists or dentists, maybe they'll take only ~25.

 

But if we lack electricians and plumbers, maybe they'll take ~100. 

 

Just trying to gain some insight. Not sure if what I'm saying is completely wrong... 

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But that's like saying : well.... who knows...maybe dentistry and all of medicine will be robot controlled. Only time will tell

 

Unlikely (for now), but sure, who knows, right?

 

And aliens can take over the world tomorrow but who knows, right?

 

but in all seriousness, I doubt dentistry or medicine will be automated anytime soon

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And aliens can take over the world tomorrow but who knows, right?

 

but in all seriousness, I doubt dentistry or medicine will be automated anytime soon

Exactly :)

 

Just as you doubt healthcare will be automated, I doubt dentistry will be getting less saturated in Canada, if as a group, we don't take action to make it happen! 

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Thank you for posting that seeking1,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you think they'll focus on bringing in people that we need for jobs such as plumbing. 

 

Don't they have quotas for specific jobs?

 

For example - because we probably have enough pharmacists or dentists, maybe they'll take only ~25.

 

But if we lack electricians and plumbers, maybe they'll take ~100. 

 

Just trying to gain some insight. Not sure if what I'm saying is completely wrong... 

 

Wouldn't be able to say, not enough info on my side. Just thought it should be on people's radar and wanted to see where discussion went. :)

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From friends I have who have all entered the profession and have had differing levels of success in their respective job hunts and job experiences - I think the issue is less one of saturation or non-saturation in any given area, and more an issue of the specific practice itself.... many have found great spots with tons of work in areas that technically are supposed to be "over saturated". The key is in the practice, which can really only be assessed by very close interaction over time.

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From friends I have who have all entered the profession and have had differing levels of success in their respective job hunts and job experiences - I think the issue is less one of saturation or non-saturation in any given area, and more an issue of the specific practice itself.... many have found great spots with tons of work in areas that technically are supposed to be "over saturated". The key is in the practice, which can really only be assessed by very close interaction over time.

So, you're basically saying that if you work hard and do a good job, you'll do well?

I suppose this is true in anything. But the question is, how close to the best do you have to be in order to do well? Top 1%? 5%? 20%?

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So, you're basically saying that if you work hard and do a good job, you'll do well?

I suppose this is true in anything. But the question is, how close to the best do you have to be in order to do well? Top 1%? 5%? 20%?

Life isn't a meritocracy! I know someone who was in the bottom tier of his class who now nets x00k a year (not less than 300, not more than 700k) from one practice. 

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So, you're basically saying that if you work hard and do a good job, you'll do well?

I suppose this is true in anything. But the question is, how close to the best do you have to be in order to do well? Top 1%? 5%? 20%?

 

I think a lot of people think study hard=good career=good money when it's not really the case. Most people might not know what goes on inside their mouth with the dentist takes a drill to it. All they basically ask is: how much? and is it going to hurt? That's' basically it........If you can minimize the pain or warn the patient and have good chair side manners you'll go a long way. 

 

however, there is a business side to dentistry like it or not. 

It's this business side where some dentists start to become quite sketchy i.e offering treatment plans where it's completely unnecessary.

 

I think if your honest, a good clinician, you'll be perfectly fine. 

It's the dentists that have a poor attitude, treat their patients like crap that will suffer and complain

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I think a lot of people think study hard=good career=good money when it's not really the case. Most people might not know what goes on inside their mouth with the dentist takes a drill to it. All they basically ask is: how much? and is it going to hurt? That's' basically it........If you can minimize the pain or warn the patient and have good chair side manners you'll go a long way. 

 

however, there is a business side to dentistry like it or not. 

It's this business side where some dentists start to become quite sketchy i.e offering treatment plans where it's completely unnecessary.

 

I think if your honest, a good clinician, you'll be perfectly fine. 

It's the dentists that have a poor attitude, treat their patients like crap that will suffer and complain

Though we disagree on certain issues, we clearly have a very similar understanding of things. 

Props  :cool:

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Though we disagree on certain issues, we clearly have a very similar understanding of things. 

Props  :cool:

 

I think a lot of people think study hard=good career=good money when it's not really the case. Most people might not know what goes on inside their mouth with the dentist takes a drill to it. All they basically ask is: how much? and is it going to hurt? That's' basically it........If you can minimize the pain or warn the patient and have good chair side manners you'll go a long way. 

 

however, there is a business side to dentistry like it or not. 

It's this business side where some dentists start to become quite sketchy i.e offering treatment plans where it's completely unnecessary.

 

I think if your honest, a good clinician, you'll be perfectly fine. 

It's the dentists that have a poor attitude, treat their patients like crap that will suffer and complain

It is based on the assumption that vicious competition does not dominate the market.  The reality now is that overtreatment, insurance fraud, price reduction are very common because of saturation and vicious competition.  When the reality is understood, a lot of “ I think”s are not necessary to be true .  Then, it is easier to understand what the college is doing only leads to less and less professionalism and more and more businesslike in dentistry.  

I like your attitude of dentistry; I think dentistry should be like what you say. However, It does not match the reality now, a reality seen by a new graduate with 200,000 debt is different from yours .

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It is based on the assumption that vicious competition does not dominate the market.  The reality now is that overtreatment, insurance fraud, price reduction are very common because of saturation and vicious competition.  When the reality is understood, a lot of “ I think”s are not necessary to be true .  Then, it is easier to understand what the college is doing only leads to less and less professionalism and more and more businesslike in dentistry.  

I like your attitude of dentistry; I think dentistry should be like what you say. However, It does not match the reality now, a reality seen by a new graduate with 200,000 debt is different from yours .

 

I understand that there's a lot of competition HOWEVER it doesn't mean you can't be professional about your services. 

If you look at an example of LASIKMD advertising $499 per eye. That's business right? Are you expecting to get $499 an eye? probably not. It's the same with dentistry.

 

It's the same when you go see a dentist about something. "oh I have a tooth ache, let's get it taken out or RCT on it" "Oh you guys have whitening for $99 dollars, let's do that as well"

 

it's more along that type of attitude instead of "I just want $99 dollar whitening"

 

I'm seriously gonna doubt that price reduction will seriously affect big procedures such as extractions, fillings, crowns, bridges, veneers, or dentures. 

Obviously you're welcome to prove me wrong but what i'm guessing a lot of dentists are going to do is offer to do a procedure i.e crowns but offer a cheaper crown and then tell the patient it's probably not the best type and instead offer something else that's better such as gold which will be more expensive. 

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FYI on that note, pay very careful attention to the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) discussion:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/more-foreign-workers-tpp-1.3338189

 

"Sweetman also said labour market provisions will affect some people positively, others negatively. For example, an influx of dentists and pharmacists could harm people working in those fields, but help consumers.

"There will be winners and losers — it depends on where you sit," he said. "If I was a pharmacist or a dentist I would be really worried about it.… If I was a consumer of dental services I would probably be quite happy, because prices are going to go down.""

 

An oversupply of practitioners is not typically a boon for consumers. A race to the bottom ensues. Over treatment, cutting corners, poor decision making, breaking rules, an excess of business-focused mindsets vs. clinical ones. It's already happening. 

 

This is a complex issue, but admittedly one that is helped neither by an undersupply nor an oversupply of dentists.

 

Flooding the market with foreign-trained dentists does not fix any sort of distribution problem, which is the real concern. There is already an obvious oversupply in urban/developed areas, simply by nature of the fact that those are more desirable places to live. When you throw foreign-trained dentists into the mix, do you honestly think a foreign-trained professional is going to feel comfortable living and working in a rural area, or even a small city? These practitioners want to, understandably, stay near urban centres, for many of the same reasons, and additional ethnic/religious/community related reasons, as domestic practitioners do.

 

More dentists worsens the distribution problem, intensifies competition, catalyzes a race to the bottom.

 

The problem is that the public, the government and often even our own regulatory agencies treat dentistry as a commodity service rather than a healthcare service. Lower costs simply aren't the answer. In addition, the CDA, various colleges as well as the NDEB operate out of self-interest. This licensing boon is a money grab and nothing more. It's short-sighted and ill-fated. 

 

I'm not saying I want all dentists to be making high six figures a year with minimal effort, which was easily achievable back in the 80s, 90s. But I want even less to have good dentists trying to do shitty things to patients and each other in order to scrape together a living. This only harms the profession, themselves and their patients.

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I understand that there's a lot of competition HOWEVER it doesn't mean you can't be professional about your services. 

If you look at an example of LASIKMD advertising $499 per eye. That's business right? Are you expecting to get $499 an eye? probably not. It's the same with dentistry.

 

It's the same when you go see a dentist about something. "oh I have a tooth ache, let's get it taken out or RCT on it" "Oh you guys have whitening for $99 dollars, let's do that as well"

 

it's more along that type of attitude instead of "I just want $99 dollar whitening"

 

I'm seriously gonna doubt that price reduction will seriously affect big procedures such as extractions, fillings, crowns, bridges, veneers, or dentures. 

Obviously you're welcome to prove me wrong but what i'm guessing a lot of dentists are going to do is offer to do a procedure i.e crowns but offer a cheaper crown and then tell the patient it's probably not the best type and instead offer something else that's better such as gold which will be more expensive. 

That is what I often hear. "oh I have a tooth ache, How much you charge to take it out? what? $130, The new dentist next door only charge $70 , cash"" $99 dollar whitening? It is free in the office one block away. it says on the advertisement."  "The hygenist office charge 80 dollar for cleaning why do you charge 150?" " I am not going to see oral surgeon,, if you do not take it, fine, I can find another dentist do it."

Obviously, we are living in different world, a new graduate with high debt and a well establisthed dentist with associates working for you. it is just wasting time to prove other person wrong. 

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That is what I often hear. "oh I have a tooth ache, How much you charge to take it out? what? $130, The new dentist next door only charge $70 , cash"" $99 dollar whitening? It is free in the office one block away. it says on the advertisement."  "The hygenist office charge 80 dollar for cleaning why do you charge 150?" " I am not going to see oral surgeon,, if you do not take it, fine, I can find another dentist do it."

Obviously, we are living in different world, a new graduate with high debt and a well establisthed dentist with associates working for you. it is just wasting time to prove other person wrong. 

 

The problem is that most practitioners in the GTA are desperate, short-sighted, and weak-willed. They'll bend over backwards to keep a patient because everyone is so heavily focused on themselves; they think "In an ideal world, I would never do this," but they figure that if they don't, someone else will, so they might as well. It's infectious and a grand majority of dentists in competitive areas have it. We're cutting each other off at the knees with no disregard for standards of care.

 

Maintaining the integrity of the profession is important. I just hope that with time things can move back toward this direction. Bouncing around a patient is bad, but undermining each other constantly is worse.

 

I think the profession as a whole needs to become much more self-critical.

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The problem is that most practitioners in the GTA are desperate, short-sighted, and weak-willed. They'll bend over backwards to keep a patient because everyone is so heavily focused on themselves; they think "In an ideal world, I would never do this," but they figure that if they don't, someone else will, so they might as well. It's infectious and a grand majority of dentists in competitive areas have it. We're cutting each other off at the knees with no disregard for standards of care.

 

Maintaining the integrity of the profession is important. I just hope that with time things can move back toward this direction. Bouncing around a patient is bad, but undermining each other constantly is worse.

 

I think the profession as a whole needs to become much more self-critical.

 

I really have to disagree I really doubt that MOST practitioners are like this, and I highly doubt that MOST dentists are so desperate that they're doing sketchy things. If the issue is so big then why is it still so competitive to get into dentistry? If the market is so saturated that most dentists would be struggling meaning that dental offices should be shutting down....not opening up

 

You have to remember that most of the population in Canada live in bigger cities where there's a bigger population=bigger market. 

 

As for the whole standard of care.......since more foreign dentists are getting accredited it means that the level of care that a patient is getting is varied depending on where they go to. I'm sure for some cases some people will see things differently than another dentist and some dentists will offer different treatment plans than others. However, even though there's different opinions it doesn't mean the standard or safety of procedures are any lower. That being said.......The level of skill of a clinician will differ, I'm sure there's people in your class that are not good in terms of their drilling and clinical skills hence they'll be seen as "sketchy".

 

But yes you are right in terms of some things, if you went in to a dental office and the dentist told you that you need a full mouth reconstruction....and veneers as well as you need a couple of endo's. I would be cautious as well, and it's always not bad to get a second opinion

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Look at the facts. 80 dollar cleaning is sketchy business, free new patient exam and free x-ray is sketchy business, not collecting co-payment is sketchy business.  Dentist- patient ratio is 1:700 in Toronto. Dentist offices are at every corner and struggling to get new patients. Getting into dentistry is not competitive except to students who only can afford going to Canadian dental school. Less and less referrals are made to the specialists ,even the specialists are doing things beyond their scope of practice(endo doing implants, perio doing wisdom teeth extraction).  Patients do not respect dentists as professionals any more often shop around.  These facts are clear and disappointing, why you cannot see them or just pretending not to see them as college is doing.

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Look at the facts. 80 dollar cleaning is sketchy business, free new patient exam and free x-ray is sketchy business, not collecting co-payment is sketchy business.  Dentist- patient ratio is 1:700 in Toronto. Dentist offices are at every corner and struggling to get new patients. Getting into dentistry is not competitive except to students who only can afford going to Canadian dental school. Less and less referrals are made to the specialists ,even the specialists are doing things beyond their scope of practice(endo doing implants, perio doing wisdom teeth extraction).  Patients do not respect dentists as professionals any more often shop around.  These facts are clear and disappointing, why you cannot see them or just pretending not to see them as college is doing.

 

I really don't know where your getting the price of $80 dollar for a cleaning from......maybe a hygienist price?

As for the latter......haven't really heard of free patient exam and free x-rays........

Where are you getting this 1:700 ratio from? 

 

Getting into dentistry IS competitive period. Look at admission rates into any accredited school in the US or overseas. 

There are CPD courses that allow dentists to do implants if it's a simple case. Most of the time it's a simple case which is why they can do it.

Same with ortho, there's invisalign which for simple cases dentists that take a CPD course can do.

3rd molar extraction is the same thing. It really depends on the case. If the 3rd molar is right on the nerve or the nerve is overlapping it i doubt a general dentist would be comfortable extracting it. 

 

It's within the patient's right to shop around for prices. You do that when you get elective surgery such as LASIK or braces.......... Or even plastic surgery...of course you shop around. It's very common for patients to leave for all sorts of reasons.........

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I really don't know where your getting the price of $80 dollar for a cleaning from......maybe a hygienist price?

As for the latter......haven't really heard of free patient exam and free x-rays........

Where are you getting this 1:700 ratio from? 

 

Getting into dentistry IS competitive period. Look at admission rates into any accredited school in the US or overseas. 

There are CPD courses that allow dentists to do implants if it's a simple case. Most of the time it's a simple case which is why they can do it.

Same with ortho, there's invisalign which for simple cases dentists that take a CPD course can do.

3rd molar extraction is the same thing. It really depends on the case. If the 3rd molar is right on the nerve or the nerve is overlapping it i doubt a general dentist would be comfortable extracting it. 

 

It's within the patient's right to shop around for prices. You do that when you get elective surgery such as LASIK or braces.......... Or even plastic surgery...of course you shop around. It's very common for patients to leave for all sorts of reasons.........

His numbers aren't far off! Toronto is arguably the most saturated location in Canada (fiercely competing with Montreal and Vancouver)!

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His numbers aren't far off! Toronto is arguably the most saturated location in Canada (fiercely competing with Montreal and Vancouver)!

 

I feel like those prices are luring patients in.....then the dentist does something sketchy and tells the patient that they need like a lot of fillings to compensate for that initial "lure" in fee.

 

I think this is where the sketchy part comes from.......

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As much as I'd like to think the saturation issue isn't present - denial doesn't do myself or my future colleagues much favour. 

 

I'm glad to see more activity and discussion on this topic. Hopefully, we could start a momentum for change.

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I firmly believe that those who think that the flood of FTD will not affect overall profitability of Canadian dentists in the future are being naive. It's a simple economics issue of supply/demand/pricing impact. The greater the supply the lower the net pricing. Someone noted earlier in this thread - patient asks for a treatment that is too expensive one place, he'll just go down the street where it is offered cheaper. The reality is the greater the saturation, the greater the pressure on pricing.

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I firmly believe that those who think that the flood of FTD will not affect overall profitability of Canadian dentists in the future are being naive. It's a simple economics issue of supply/demand/pricing impact. The greater the supply the lower the net pricing. Someone noted earlier in this thread - patient asks for a treatment that is too expensive one place, he'll just go down the street where it is offered cheaper. The reality is the greater the saturation, the greater the pressure on pricing.

And the greater the pressure on pricing, the greater the pressure on dentists to use lower quality/cheaper materials, and to cut corners where they shouldn't be cut. 

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And the greater the pressure on pricing, the greater the pressure on dentists to use lower quality/cheaper materials, and to cut corners where they shouldn't be cut. 

 

if dentists do that it's ultimately the patients that suffer. I think it's your responsibility to tell the patient that if they opt for a cheaper price they might not be getting a bargain that they're looking for in the end

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if dentists do that it's ultimately the patients that suffer. I think it's your responsibility to tell the patient that if they opt for a cheaper price they might not be getting a bargain that they're looking for in the end

Yup, which is why when articles say that 'on the consumer's side, this factor of oversaturation is good' isn't actually good for anyone LOL, especially with the low dollar (amplifies the whole effect)

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