In Need Of Some Advice (Considering International And Domestic).

[sunday]

Transparent games? There's nothing "gamey" about being more involved and having non-academic interests. Or having work experience/life experience in general.

 

Every medical school will want more than just grades. No one cares if you have a high average, if that's all you have. Getting high grades is easy if you only have that on your plate, but in the professional world you have to balance many different commitments at once- and still excel!

 

gamey as in resume fluffing instead of pursuing something for the sole purpose of personal fulfillment. i do many things for the latter reason such as photography, musical instruments, digital art, etc. pretty much all of them are however, unverifiable in the context of the application. i'm not saying that everyone goes and engages in volunteer activities only for their application but you cannot deny that the majority of "pre-med" students do so. i was always operating under the philosophy of doing what you love and that things will work out in terms of your application reflecting that you do indeed have diverse extracurricular interests. i will be pursuing volunteer activities that i am interested in personally of course but my mention of it being "gamey" is to the fact that the primary purpose is to boost my application and no longer solely for personal fulfillment.

[JohnGrisham]

gamey as in resume fluffing instead of pursuing something for the sole purpose of personal fulfillment. i do many things for the latter reason such as photography, musical instruments, digital art, etc. pretty much all of them are however, unverifiable in the context of the application. i'm not saying that everyone goes and engages in volunteer activities only for their application but you cannot deny that the majority of "pre-med" students do so. i was always operating under the philosophy of doing what you love and that things will work out in terms of your application reflecting that you do indeed have diverse extracurricular interests. i will be pursuing volunteer activities that i am interested in personally of course but my mention of it being "gamey" is to the fact that the primary purpose is to boost my application and no longer solely for personal fulfillment.

There's no reason you can't take those things you enjoy(which do count for many schools) and further develop them. Teach your instrument to others, develop an after school photography program for kids or elderly(pun intended, participate in art exhibitions. There's nothing wrong with your current endeavours, they show depth. You just need to further expand them into realms that have you grow further in areas of leadership, community involvement and expertise.

[bearpuppy]

OP - I think you have a competitive app for USMD. You need to get some clinical experiences though (working with patients, shadowing, whatever you can). But otherwise it looks good. Don't give up, and make sure you apply to MANY schools (>20) and to the right ones (check that they interview and accept internationals on MSAR and USNEWS). 

 

Know this - if you go outside of North America, you will likely never be able to return to Canada. 

[Stanfordgrad]

Hey guys,

I've been applying to med for the last 5 years with little success. Last year was the closest I've gotten with being waitlisted in Sask. I've applied to many US schools with no interview requests despite a decent GPA of 3.72, an MCAT of 37R, and glowing reviews from professors/department heads that I knew very well. I'm currently finishing up my thesis based masters following an very relevant medical related (and imo rather difficult) honors degree and am now back at my parents while I figure things out.

 

One of my issues is extracurricular activities. I am planning on spending the year volunteering in a variety of places to compensate (I had 500ish hours at the hospital and have been on numerous executive teams during my undergraduate but nothing special).

 

I am being encouraged to take a look at universities in Australia and Europe but am worried of getting a job afterwards (Caribbean is not a consideration for me). I would not mind staying abroad afterwards but would also look at moving back to Canada or the US. I'm sure there are plenty of posts like this but I'm curious if anybody can provide advice or insight on any aspect of this. I do plan to apply to a few US schools again. My MCAT is now too old so I will have to rewrite it should I want to apply to Canadian schools.

Cheers.

 

You have an amazing MCAT score and with your current GPA you shouldn't have any issues, getting into at least 1 US school as a Canadian.  Since you've been applying for the last 5 years, my suggestion would be to really examine your application at this point for any red flags because this might be an issue.  You can start with your school's premed advisor, career center or if you've already taken advantage of them, you may want to look into getting help from an admissions consultant.  It's an investment but a lot of people at Stanford including myself (tons of money here in PA, so parents often pay for their kids' consultants and they've been doing so even before college to get them into Stanford in the first place) use them for med school and the general consensus is that with the right person, it makes all the difference in the world in the outcome of your application.  Are you still waiting to hear back from any schools? Good luck with your applications! 

[JohnGrisham]

You have an amazing MCAT score and with your current GPA you shouldn't have any issues, getting into at least 1 US school as a Canadian. Since you've been applying for the last 5 years, my suggestion would be to really examine your application at this point for any red flags because this might be an issue. You can start with your school's premed advisor, career center or if you've already taken advantage of them, you may want to look into getting help from an admissions consultant. It's an investment but a lot of people at Stanford including myself (tons of money here in PA, so parents often pay for their kids' consultants and they've been doing so even before college to get them into Stanford in the first place) use them for med school and the general consensus is that with the right person, it makes all the difference in the world in the outcome of your application. Are you still waiting to hear back from any schools? Good luck with your applications!

No need for a consultant. They already know their ecs are weak, and this is especially important for US programs.

[Stanfordgrad]

No need for a consultant. They already know their ecs are weak, and this is especially important for US programs.

 

The original post specifically mentioned that ECs are just one of the issues.  

 

I'm no expert but the fact that this is the 5th application cycle despite a strong MCAT and good GPA suggests that there maybe something else underlying that is getting overlooked.   For the amount of money (ie. applied to MANY schools) and time they've spent over the PAST 5 cycles, it's quite possible they could have achieved different outcomes and ended up spending less.  I find that Canadian applicants are much less likely to seek professional help for their applications than in the US.  Many of my friends at Ivy League schools all use consultants to help them put out the best possible applications.  I'm not saying someone couldn't put out a strong application on their own.  However, even my academic advisor feels that professional help is warranted after several failed attempts and especially if you're trying to compete for a spot into a top program.  My GPA is less than the original poster's and I don't have a master's degree, but so far, I have interviewed at numerous top 10 programs and have gotten into Stanford and NYMC.  At the end of the day, to each their own.

[JohnGrisham]

The original post specifically mentioned that ECs are just one of the issues.  

 

I'm no expert but the fact that this is the 5th application cycle despite a strong MCAT and good GPA suggests that there maybe something else underlying that is getting overlooked.   For the amount of money (ie. applied to MANY schools) and time they've spent over the PAST 5 cycles, it's quite possible they could have achieved different outcomes and ended up spending less.  I find that Canadian applicants are much less likely to seek professional help for their applications than in the US.  Many of my friends at Ivy League schools all use consultants to help them put out the best possible applications.  I'm not saying someone couldn't put out a strong application on their own.  However, even my academic advisor feels that professional help is warranted after several failed attempts and especially if you're trying to compete for a spot into a top program.  My GPA is less than the original poster's and I don't have a master's degree, but so far, I have interviewed at numerous top 10 programs and have gotten into Stanford and NYMC.  At the end of the day, to each their own.

Except we do not know what those 5 applications were like. It is a big assumption to assume they have their 3.7 and 37 MCAT on the first application attempt. If that was the case, then yes 5 cycles of no luck warrants looking into.

 

It could very well be the case that the first few application cycles were not true attempts (i.e. having a poor GPA, that later was rectified, applying as a 2nd or 3rd year when chances are slim etc etc.) 

 

It is much more likely that they have simply been slow on the uptake to improve their application, and now that they have improved their GPA and MCAT, they had 1 or 2 true application cycles - however, they still have not gotten around to improving their ECs.

 

My operating definition of a true application cycle, is one where you have the best gpa, the best MCAT, and near best ECs that you could have possibly had, and gave it your all. When that is the case, it is not out of the ordinary to take more than 1 attempt. Especially since interviews can be unpredictable.

 

Hence why unless OP provided more info, i'll reserve judgment weather they need to waste money on a consultant. Most said consultants that operate in Canada, really have no clue other than basic stuff that many long-time users on PM101 can provide for free.

 

Also, you did your degree in the US, which puts you at a different vantage point.

[birthoggdube]

Having seen things from the other side, I think consultants are a complete waste of money.  What the OP needs for success are 1) marks, 2) being able to write and talk about ECs with passion, conviction and persuasiveness, and 3) superior interviewing skills.  (3) can probably use an interviewing coach which career centres at any university in Canada should be able to provide for free.  I don't think having a consultant will add anything tangible provided the OP has (1)-(3) as listed.  (4) Connections can also matter a lot but it doesn't sound like OP has those.

 

Also, for US medical school admissions (and to a lesser extent, even residency match!), having an undergrad degree from an Ivy League or equivalent institution is a distinct advantage.  People will see you and treat you differently.  Stanfordgrad, gotta have some humility once you go into your clinical years, (wo)man...

[Stanfordgrad]

Except we do not know what those 5 applications were like. It is a big assumption to assume they have their 3.7 and 37 MCAT on the first application attempt. If that was the case, then yes 5 cycles of no luck warrants looking into.

 

It could very well be the case that the first few application cycles were not true attempts (i.e. having a poor GPA, that later was rectified, applying as a 2nd or 3rd year when chances are slim etc etc.) 

 

It is much more likely that they have simply been slow on the uptake to improve their application, and now that they have improved their GPA and MCAT, they had 1 or 2 true application cycles - however, they still have not gotten around to improving their ECs.

 

My operating definition of a true application cycle, is one where you have the best gpa, the best MCAT, and near best ECs that you could have possibly had, and gave it your all. When that is the case, it is not out of the ordinary to take more than 1 attempt. Especially since interviews can be unpredictable.

 

Hence why unless OP provided more info, i'll reserve judgment weather they need to waste money on a consultant. Most said consultants that operate in Canada, really have no clue other than basic stuff that many long-time users on PM101 can provide for free.

 

Also, you did your degree in the US, which puts you at a different vantage point.

It didn't come across to me from the first post that the previous application attempts were not sincere.  Furthermore, we don't have to agree on the value of working with a consultant but it's definitely an option.  The best consultants are going to stand by their work and not leave you hanging.     

[Stanfordgrad]

Having seen things from the other side, I think consultants are a complete waste of money.  What the OP needs for success are 1) marks, 2) being able to write and talk about ECs with passion, conviction and persuasiveness, and 3) superior interviewing skills.  (3) can probably use an interviewing coach which career centres at any university in Canada should be able to provide for free.  I don't think having a consultant will add anything tangible provided the OP has (1)-(3) as listed.  (4) Connections can also matter a lot but it doesn't sound like OP has those.

 

Also, for US medical school admissions (and to a lesser extent, even residency match!), having an undergrad degree from an Ivy League or equivalent institution is a distinct advantage.  People will see you and treat you differently.  Stanfordgrad, gotta have some humility once you go into your clinical years, (wo)man...

 

It sounds like you had a bad experience working for one of these companies and so your opinion of the industry is biased towards your own experience, much in the same way mine is biased towards my positive experience.  

 

Test Prep is a legit multi billion dollar industry in the US but with minimal regulation, the onus is on the applicant, not some accrediting body.  Anyhow, there's no need to see eye to eye on this one.  

[birthoggdube]

It sounds like you had a bad experience working for one of these companies and so your opinion of the industry is biased towards your own experience, much in the same way mine is biased towards my positive experience.  

 

Test Prep is a legit multi billion dollar industry in the US but with minimal regulation, the onus is on the applicant, not some accrediting body.  Anyhow, there's no need to see eye to eye on this one.  

Never hired a consultant and still did fine (be careful about making assumptions of your patients too...)  I just don't see the point of consultant companies, from the perspective of having seen how things work from the other side.

[jnuts]

After you're fully qualified in certain countries you can possibly return to Canada, the specifics depend on the province.  Here's the Ontario rules http://www.cpso.on.c...on-Requirements .  Here are the BC rules https://www.cpsbc.ca...mgs/provisional . For additional provinces, just look for the provicial licensing authority and you should be able to find their rules and requirements.  Most provinces will grant some form of license if you are certified by the RCPSC (Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada) or CFPC (College of Family Practitioners of Canada).

 

For College certification, there is a big difference between family practice and specialties.  Here's the CFPC  link: http://www.cfpc.ca/R...nizedTraining/.  The CFPC recognizes training in the US, UK, Australia, and Ireland.  The advantage to the CFPC reciprocally recognized training is that you do not need to sit the CFPC (family practice) exams.  You do need to sit the MCC exams which are the Canadian general medical exams (some provinces will also except the USMLE). If you are planning to return to Canada I'd suggest taking the MCCEE/QE1/QE2 as soon as possible regardless of where you are training.  These exams are usually written in your last year of medical school and after your first year of postgraduate training.  If you waited until you could transfer, going back and re-learning undergraduate medicine after you've spent years specializing would be a huge headache.  

 

Specialties are different.  The RCPSC recognizes training from the US (ACGME), Hong Kong, the UK, Ireland, and Australia (http://www.royalcoll...es#jurisdiction).   Most importantly, the RCPSC recognition only entitles you to sit the Canadian specialty exam.  The RCPSC exams are very difficult and contain a lot of Canadian specific content and general consensus practice standards.  There are no standardized study resources. Any existing review material gets handed down through Canadian residency programs and is not generally shared.  It would be incredibly difficult to get through these exams if you had not trained in Canada.  Most foreign trained specialists I've met have academic appointments that allow you to avoid writing the RCPSC exams or were granted certification under older programs that are no longer available.  Additionally, RCPSC recognition is limited to certain foreign colleges and specialties.  You would also need to sit the MCC exams as described above.

 

There's an important caveat. Specialty training in the UK or Ireland is much longer than Canada.  To get to the level where a transfer back without residency is possible is a very long process.  Family medicine is at least 6 years, surgery is closer to 13.  Over those years there are multiple hurdles and progression is not a certainty.  The training consists of multiple programs and not a combined residency like Canada or the US. Junior doctors can stall out or struggle to gain admission to competitive specialty training streams.  While working towards full qualification (consultancy) the pay scale is certainly livable. However, if you have massive student debt, servicing it could push you pretty close to the poverty line.  Trainees who fail to progress continue in these lower paying positions almost indefinitely. 

 

Reciprocity is a developing area and the two Colleges are creating alternative pathways and programs.  Explore the RCPSC and CFPC websites to get a sense of future directions.  As always, predicting how this question could be answered in 10 years is difficult.