UWUW Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 A lot of people are telling me to do a graduate degree (Masters then PhD) before going to medical school simply because they are saying that competitive residency choices (e.g. cardiac surgery) are hard to get into without that extra degree now. I just wanted to get some opinions on this from people regarding this. Do you think a graduate degree is essentially "required" to have a good shot at competitive residencies, and if yes, would it be best to obtain one prior to applying medical school to safely know you have that extra degree to accompany you after medical school?Thanks a lot ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lactic Folly Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 I've never heard this - only that a graduate degree would be an advantage for certain competitive job markets, hence the completion of graduate degrees during residency. Research has shown that a number of people who have graduate degrees before entering medical school are actually looking to switch from the academic track into clinical medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shikimate Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 Would not likely to help, and what happens if you wants some other specialty? However there are people in US who take a year after med school to do derm research to match to derm, which is extremely competitive. You can do them while in residency, and you are paid a lot more on a resident's salary. Not to mention the clinical access and privilege that comes with MD degree. The people I know who matched to cardiac sx just did a lot of electives. I think if anything it's facing a dearth of applicants due to poor job prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intrepid86 Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 A lot of people are telling me to do a graduate degree (Masters then PhD) before going to medical school simply because they are saying that competitive residency choices (e.g. cardiac surgery) are hard to get into without that extra degree now. The people giving this advice aren't doing you any favors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted October 27, 2016 Report Share Posted October 27, 2016 You are getting bad advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolynH Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 a number of people I know actually got into every competitive residencies including Gen. Surg without a degree (they entered med after their 3rd year UG) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasteman Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 Funnily enough, I thought the same thing as OP. This was because I've read other posts about members talking about getting a graduate degree just to be competitive; especially in highly specialized fields like cardiology, neurology, and dermatology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambi Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 Do not put the cart before the horse! One step at a time. Focus on getting into medical school. Then, you can consider residency. I am in a competitive surgical specialty. I don't have a graduate degree. I never considered one before med school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1D7 Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 Graduate degrees helping residency selection? No. With jobs? Depends on the specialty (it can help a lot for some, not so much for others). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted November 3, 2016 Report Share Posted November 3, 2016 Nobody cares if you have a masters when it comes to residency matching. I never once looked at it when helping to select applicants for our program during the 5 years I was a resident. Plus the majority of residents will go on to work in the community where a Master's Degree holds little to no value (maybe an MBA if you want to move into admin for your hospital). Cardiac surgery is also a weird specialty. They can have unmatched spots on a regular basis but would rather have spots unmatched rather than fill them with someone who doesn't eat, breath and sleep cardiac surgery. I guess they know you need to have an all consuming passion for cardiac surgery to endure the multiple fellowships and academic degrees you have to do while waiting to landing a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchEnemy Posted November 4, 2016 Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 As others have mentioned, the MSc title does not mean much. However, the experience and skills acquired during the MSc will. Graduate students seem to do better at matching to highly competitive specialties because they have experience writing grants, proposals and manuscripts. They can be more productive than those who did not pursue graduate studies and thus lack this research experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UWUW Posted November 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2016 I want to thank everyone for taking their time to provide their insight on this. It helps with my decisions when applying for next cycle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 As others have mentioned, the MSc title does not mean much. However, the experience and skills acquired during the MSc will. Graduate students seem to do better at matching to highly competitive specialties because they have experience writing grants, proposals and manuscripts. They can be more productive than those who did not pursue graduate studies and thus lack this research experience. I don't agree, it doesn't reflect my experience during medical training and I have never seen any formal data to support this assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchEnemy Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 I don't agree, it doesn't reflect my experience during medical training and I have never seen any formal data to support this assertion. Do we really need formal data to make the assumption that the average PhD can be more productive than the average BSc in medical school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambi Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 Your assumption is just that, one person's unsupported assumption. I too disagree, but we are all entitled to our opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 Do we really need formal data to make the assumption that the average PhD can be more productive than the average BSc in medical school?That's not what you claimed. You claimed that they had a higher success rate in the match, which I don't think is true based on my experience both as a trainee and as someone selecting candidates for a competative program. For the record, I also dont think you can assume people with advanced degrees are more research productive during med school since in my experience the only driver of researxh as a med student seems to be desire to match to a competative specialty, which I'm not convinced correlates with an advanced degree prior to med school. But that's just anecdotal experience on my part. I've never done a formal analysis of the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edict Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 A lot of people are telling me to do a graduate degree (Masters then PhD) before going to medical school simply because they are saying that competitive residency choices (e.g. cardiac surgery) are hard to get into without that extra degree now. I just wanted to get some opinions on this from people regarding this. Do you think a graduate degree is essentially "required" to have a good shot at competitive residencies, and if yes, would it be best to obtain one prior to applying medical school to safely know you have that extra degree to accompany you after medical school? Thanks a lot ! No, in fact a masters you do before med school is less useful than a masters you do during residency because its not relevant to your research career. An academic surgeon will likely be doing clinical epidemiology research in cardiac surgery, a very small number will do basic science. If you did a masters degree prior to medical school it would likely be in a topic unrelated to cardiac surgery, so the main benefit would be only learning some research methodology. Cardiac surgery isn't that competitive, last year 12 applicants ranked it first for 9 spots. This ranks it in the middle-competitive specialties like anesthesia, gen surg etc. You can definitely match into Cardiac surgery with electives and even research in med school can be considered optional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchEnemy Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 That's not what you claimed. You claimed that they had a higher success rate in the match, which I don't think is true based on my experience both as a trainee and as someone selecting candidates for a competative program. For the record, I also dont think you can assume people with advanced degrees are more research productive during med school since in my experience the only driver of researxh as a med student seems to be desire to match to a competative specialty, which I'm not convinced correlates with an advanced degree prior to med school. But that's just anecdotal experience on my part. I've never done a formal analysis of the numbers. Neither have I. I am offering my opinion based on my observations while at U of T. To OP: Having the advanced degree will not earn you the residency spot. It is your skills and experience, and your "fit" into their program that will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 Neither have I. I am offering my opinion based on my observations while at U of T. To OP: Having the advanced degree will not earn you the residency spot. It is your skills and experience, and your "fit" into their program that will. I'd also add that work ethic also plays a huge factor in the match. It always surprises me how many applicants have a poor work ethic on elective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VolumeOverload Posted November 5, 2016 Report Share Posted November 5, 2016 I agree with Arch.For whatever reason there is this pervasive belief that any type of graduate training is a waste of time if you ultimately decide to specialize in something else. I don't believe that's true. Your formal research training gives you a highly transferable skill set regardless of what you're studying and what you match into.To a certain extent, what Arch describes at U of T I also see at the U of C.That said, like everyone else has mentioned, an advanced degree does not make up for crappy performance during your rotations. At the end of the day, a residency program wants to a train capable clinician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMislove Posted November 6, 2016 Report Share Posted November 6, 2016 I am curious, what constitutes as poor work ethic during an elective? I mean, I know us pre-meds work so hard to get into medicine, do some students really just stop studying and trying during electives? I am sure very few might do that, but I am genuinely wanting to know what is seen as a poor performance during an elective, even if one is studying and trying their best to put themselves out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted November 6, 2016 Report Share Posted November 6, 2016 People don't do the minimal stuff expected of med students on elective. They don't try to write admissions orders or OR notes. They don't offer to see ER consults. They don't take the initiative to write the note on morning rounds with the team. They don't volunteer to do discharge summaries. They don't help position the patient. They don't pay attention when scrubbed in. They fuck off the spend an hour at lunch when the rest of the team is working. They leave early when the rest of the team is still working. They don't offer to do call. That's a list of specific examples to was able to recall in 30 seconds. It's not hard to have a good work ethic but it's less common than you would think when people are on elective. that being said probably 75% of students I saw come through on elective weren't like that. They all weren't equivilent but they were pretty good with work ethic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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