Where to go from here? Time to move on?

[Amy97]

I finished my biology degree from York 3 years ago and have been working as a secretary at a law firm (...yay me). I have always wanted to become a doctor but have never told anyone but my brother cause I know those around me will just tell me to be realistic. I can't blame them, I barely showed up in high school and my first two years of uni were abysmal (gpa around 2.0 for both years and have failed courses). I did not try at all and had a lot of personal problems. My brother and I didn't have the best of parents and we moved out as soon as my brother was 16, we didn't hang around the best crowds and spent time in youth detention (all minor offenses and pardoned). I hung around the same people and had the same attitude in first and second year and also worked 3 part time jobs throughout both years. When I told me brother I wanted to become a doctor he was ecstatic, told me to quit my jobs and fully supported me. I was surprised at how much confidence he had in me and I made huge changes in my life.

I got my shit together and finished my final 2 years with a gpa over 3.9. I have also written my MCAT and scored a 519 (131/127/130/131). I am an Ontario resident and I know my only chances are at Western and Queens due to my gpa. I have failed to get an interview for 3 cycles now and don't know where to focus my attention. I have good references and lots of EC's (counselor for at-risk youth, hospital volunteering, boxing, tutor, ESL teacher, basketball coach, dance competitions etc...). 

On top of the stress of it all, my brother just got diagnosed with terminal cancer. I feel like this journey is stressing him out as much as it is me. Even now he is always motivating me to apply again and improve my application. I am the first in my family to graduate high school and I can see this is just as important to him as it is to me. I am looking at my rejections this year as a blessing because it gives me time to spend with him. But looking forward I have no idea where to go from here. Should I rewrite the MCAT and try to reach the CARS cutoff for Western? Should I do more EC's to qualify for Queens? I feel like Queens is my only real shot but the way they select people seems impossible to predict. Looking at my ABS the only section that seems to be severely lacking is research. I have ZERO research experience and nothing close to publications, is this something I should focus on? I feel like I have been stuck in the same place these last 3 years and don't know what I should do to improve my chances...

Any advice would be deeply appreciated

[Persephone]

@Amy97

Have you looked at how you're writing your ABS section? There's some good advice I got about that, that I believe got me an interview at UBC this year (IP). U of A might be another option for you. They have 4 different weighting systems based on certain criteria, so that might give you a real boost. You also have to write Casper for them now, so that could increase your chances there, even OOP.

Do you apply fairly widely? Look at what other schools you are eligible for that do weighting for GPA if you haven't already. I can't remember, but I feel like there are other Ontario schools that do weighting. I know U of T will remove almost an entire year of your lowest graded courses.

[Amy97]

@Persephone

I made sure to use canmeds in them but I'm thinking maybe I do not have enough medical or research related entries. I only applied to Queens and Western I didn't know UofA had 4 different weighting systems, I always figured that especially as OOP I had no chance. I'll definitely check that out. Thanks!

[jr2]

First off, i want you to know you have incredible potential. Your challenging life experiences will make you a deeply empathetic physician. Your overall mcat score and 2 year gpa are killer. Unfortunately, queens can be unpredictable and western will likely require 129 cars. Have you applied to Manitoba? You will likely qualify for their socioeconomic and life experience bonuses and ur mcat is also ok for oop. Manitoba also drops ur lowest 10 marks. Is your overall percentage gpa above 87? If so you should also apply to mun as well since ur mcat is great. Saskatcgewan can also be an option. You will be rejected from Alberta pre interview because cars cutoff is 128 so don't waste your money. If these don' work out, your best option is to either rewrite mcat for western or move to the Maritimes and become ip for dalhousie. Good luck and dont give up. I hope more people with your background can break the glass ceiling in medicine that has been established by the rich and privileged. Good luck!

[Persephone]

7 hours ago, Amy97 said:

@Persephone

I made sure to use canmeds in them but I'm thinking maybe I do not have enough medical or research related entries. I only applied to Queens and Western I didn't know UofA had 4 different weighting systems, I always figured that especially as OOP I had no chance. I'll definitely check that out. Thanks!

@Amy97 you really don't have to worry about having activities that are medical or research related. My only research experience is an undergrad directed research course in a social science (not science related and just involved doing basically a glorified annotated bibliography) and I have maybe one mental health related entry. It's all about highlighting skills/characteristics and the impact of the activity. If you like I can forward you the advice I received last year. Just PM me

[Amy97]

@jr2 Thanks for your encouragement! I didn't do any research about applying outside Ontario, my school told me that their are so few seats for Ontario residents that not to try unless you have excellent stats. I will take a look at them now and see if my gpa makes the cut. 

[Persephone]

@Amy97

I am IP in BC and for McMaster, but I also applied to U of Calgary and U of Alberta. I am still waiting to hear back about U of Alberta, U of C was unfortunately a no. But it is totally possible to get an invite OOP, moreso if the weighting systems of the schools work in your favour! I wouldn't write off applying to McMaster either, your MCAT is good and if your CASPer is also good that can make up for a lot.

[Amy97]

@Persephone I would love to apply to Mac but my cGPA is 3.4. I think I am going to have to rewrite my mcat to up my CARS score in order to have more luck next cycle.

[jr2]

McMaster may be a stretch because the accepted cars average and cgpa average are 129 and 3.84. Alberta schools also require 128 cars for oop. 

Have you tried writing an academic explanations essay about your life circumstaces for uoft? They drop your lowest 8 marks and may be even more lenient if you explain your background.

Bottom line is that med school apps are expensive in this country. So research oop and ip schools, choose a reasonable number and apply. You know the strengths and weaknesses of your application best. Just research the entrance policies and average stats of all the schools in this country and see which work best for u. Worst case is you rewrite your mcat and try to improve cars and you will be guaranteed a western interview 

[sangria]

The ultimate question of whether you should "move on" can only be answered by you. I'm sorry your brother has been diagnosed with a terminal illness -- how do you want to spend the remaining days with him? Would you work on your application to achieve a goal with your brother cheering you on? Or would you spend these days with him doing what he loves? I'm so sorry that you and your brother are in such a situation, but only you can answer that. 

Even if you do choose to "move on", you can always restart working on your application any time in the future. 

If you choose to work on your application now or some point in the future,  

1. You do not have to have research to get into medical school. 

2. I would first look at all the schools you can possibly apply to, and see what their requirements are and how you match up.

3. I would work on my MCAT to bring up the CARS score for the UWO interview. 

4. In your case, you already have plenty of ECs. It's not the quantity. I had none of the standard ECs. Make sure that you can speak about your experiences and coaching etc for the interview. I think you already have the maturity well beyond the typical premed or even pre clerk. Keep it up, do what gives you joy, you don't need more. 

I wish you and your brother the best. PM if you want to talk more.

[goleafsgochris]

Your personal story is really sad, but putting that aside, some honest advice:

-re-write the MCAT, after serious serious study

-Consider doing another year of undergrad so you can be a possible candidate for "3 best" or "3 most recent" year schools

-your ECs are fine, stop worrying about this.  This is 100% not why you have been rejected.  Getting professional help to edit your app is never a bad idea if you have the time/money

-give up on any school requiring cumulative GPA.  This includes mac and likely U of T.

-although your story is quite sad, it really will not help you a significant amount when applying.  A good story can help distinguish comparable candidates when they have similar numbers, but will in no way help you when you have worse numbers.  Advice to "write a letter explaining your circumstances etc" is a total waste of time, I have been a file reviewer.  I promise no one is swayed by this.  You need to improve your numbers in terms of MCAT (and GPA if you want to add potential schools), full stop.

[indefatigable]

It's situations like these where the rigidity of the system makes me cringe a little.  I think you have an excellent potential for medicine and I can only begin to imagine how difficult everything must be with your brother.  Nonetheless, I echo your brother, and encourage you to continue your pursuit for medicine and to consider rewriting the MCAT with a focus on CARS.  Given how well you did overall, I truly believe you will be able to improve that section too.  With an outstanding CARS score, I believe Mac would also be worth applying to, as well as Western and Queen's.  People with similar cGPAs have been accepted to Mac although with likely outstanding CARS and CASPer results.  For Western, I'd make sure that your course progression satisfies their requirements, since this is a necessary component of a successful application.  Finally, I believe, Ottawa would be a possibility also if you were able to add an extra year of outstanding GPA results.  Best of luck!

[Amy97]

Thank you all for your advice, it was really helpful when deciding what I should focus on. I decided to rewrite my mcat for next cycle, I spend most of my days in the hospital chair so might as well use that time more effectively. I will also reassess how I worded my app to see how I can improve that and apply to more schools next time. Wishing you all good luck on your journeys!

[Siefer1322]

I am having a lot of trouble understanding some of these comments criticizing the MCAT score, 519 is an incredible score. There is no way you did not meet Queens blackbox MCAT and GPA cutoffs especially reviewing this years interview invite thread. The only way you can strengthen yourself further is the ABS section. I do believe there is something that can be said about getting a professionals advice for that section. Other than that, all you can is just keep adding things to it until they cannot deny you any longer. I am also surprised by you not receiving atleast an invite there with your stats but reading over the Queens invite thread, there are many in your position. The weirdest is seeing people who were not only interviewed but even waitlisted there previously and now cannot land an invite after improving their application further. As I was reading your story, I could not help but feel very similar because I am almost in an identical situation myself. Anyways, overall I do resonate with everyone in this thread that you are a strong candidate and you should be given a chance to interview and hopefully you will get one in the future. Please do not give up and keep applying, it is even very possible that you might land an interview even with the same stats next year!

[excelspreadsheet]

On 2/1/2018 at 0:11 AM, Amy97 said:

I finished my biology degree from York 3 years ago and have been working as a secretary at a law firm (...yay me). I have always wanted to become a doctor but have never told anyone but my brother cause I know those around me will just tell me to be realistic. I can't blame them, I barely showed up in high school and my first two years of uni were abysmal (gpa around 2.0 for both years and have failed courses). I did not try at all and had a lot of personal problems. My brother and I didn't have the best of parents and we moved out as soon as my brother was 16, we didn't hang around the best crowds and spent time in youth detention (all minor offenses and pardoned). I hung around the same people and had the same attitude in first and second year and also worked 3 part time jobs throughout both years. When I told me brother I wanted to become a doctor he was ecstatic, told me to quit my jobs and fully supported me. I was surprised at how much confidence he had in me and I made huge changes in my life.

I got my shit together and finished my final 2 years with a gpa over 3.9. I have also written my MCAT and scored a 519 (131/127/130/131). I am an Ontario resident and I know my only chances are at Western and Queens due to my gpa. I have failed to get an interview for 3 cycles now and don't know where to focus my attention. I have good references and lots of EC's (counselor for at-risk youth, hospital volunteering, boxing, tutor, ESL teacher, basketball coach, dance competitions etc...). 

On top of the stress of it all, my brother just got diagnosed with terminal cancer. I feel like this journey is stressing him out as much as it is me. Even now he is always motivating me to apply again and improve my application. I am the first in my family to graduate high school and I can see this is just as important to him as it is to me. I am looking at my rejections this year as a blessing because it gives me time to spend with him. But looking forward I have no idea where to go from here. Should I rewrite the MCAT and try to reach the CARS cutoff for Western? Should I do more EC's to qualify for Queens? I feel like Queens is my only real shot but the way they select people seems impossible to predict. Looking at my ABS the only section that seems to be severely lacking is research. I have ZERO research experience and nothing close to publications, is this something I should focus on? I feel like I have been stuck in the same place these last 3 years and don't know what I should do to improve my chances...

Any advice would be deeply appreciated

I'm sorry you have to go through that . A lot of advice has already been given but I'd like to add that if it is possible, adding another year of undergraduate study would be valuable. It sounds like you have 2 amazing years already so a third year would open up doors like Ottawa and other schools which drop your lowest year! The first 2 years clearly aren't representative of you academic ability (519!!!) but they may be limited in what they can do since they have pre-established criteria.

On 2/1/2018 at 5:16 PM, Persephone said:

@Amy97

Have you looked at how you're writing your ABS section? There's some good advice I got about that, that I believe got me an interview at UBC this year (IP). U of A might be another option for you. They have 4 different weighting systems based on certain criteria, so that might give you a real boost. You also have to write Casper for them now, so that could increase your chances there, even OOP.

Do you apply fairly widely? Look at what other schools you are eligible for that do weighting for GPA if you haven't already. I can't remember, but I feel like there are other Ontario schools that do weighting. I know U of T will remove almost an entire year of your lowest graded courses.

Is there any more info on the 4 different weighting systems? I haven't heard anything about it yet.

[Persephone]

@excelspreadsheet They don't mention it on the website, but when you apply the application outlines a number of different options and you select the one that you are eligible for. Off my memory it was four but it could have been 3 different weighting options, depending on the number credits, length of study, full-time/part-time type factors. I didn't know about it before I applied either. I did apply to like 5 different schools though and this was all during the summer, so my memory might be a bit off.

[Persephone]

This is all they say on the website, but I seem to remember there being more than 2 options:

"To calculate cGPA, we include all transferable post-secondary coursework to which a grade was assigned while the student was enrolled full-time (by UofA definition) in a term. For those students who have completed three or more years of transferable post-secondary coursework, we will exclude the lowest academic year (September through April) from calculation, provided it is not the most recent year, nor the only year in which the student earned 30 ucw."