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On 3/27/2018 at 10:29 AM, BoopityBoop said:

lol we're in a profession where we earn the top 1% of income in this country. Whoever we marry (man or woman) don't have to worry about working a day in their life, if they didn't want too. We could afford to have a nanny, a nice house, a cottage and they still wouldn't have to work. That's how much our earning potential is.

Have to remember this isn't the 70s. Women do very well nowadays and in their 20s/30s out earn men. Most of them don't want to stay at home and even still wouldn't get with a guy just cause of his career. Doesn't happen in the real world 

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I usually emphasise that I'm a surgeon and put at least one full line of dollar signs.  /$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

i do because im an average looking ethnic guy which means im below average in the dating world. if youre a good looking white fellow you can probably leave it out. i find that, beyond it att

If the issue is that women are pressured to work less, I don't think it's appropriate to argue that female physicians "make less." Saying "women make less" implies that they make less per hour or per

3 hours ago, medigeek said:

Have to remember this isn't the 70s. Women do very well nowadays and in their 20s/30s out earn men. Most of them don't want to stay at home and even still wouldn't get with a guy just cause of his career. Doesn't happen in the real world 

Woah. I think you're greatly misinformed.

First of all, gender pay gap is well and alive. I don't know what sources you're citing when you suggest women out earn men, but that is not the case in medicine, or  in Canada.

A state-by-state breakdown of the striking gender gap in doctors’ pay:
https://www.statnews.com/2017/04/26/gender-pay-gap-medicine/

Sex Differences in Physician Sex Differences in Physician Salary in US Public Medical Schools: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2532788

Canada's Gender Pay Gap: Why Canadian Women Still Earn Less Than Men
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/08/canada-gender-pay-gap_n_9393924.html

Second of all, I never stated that this only applied to marrying a woman. I clearly stated that whoever a physician decides to marry, MAN or WOMAN, has the option to not work if they don't want too. This doesn't only apply to raising kids, or mean that they would become trophy husbands/wives (although that is an extreme possibility).

Even as a guy, marrying a physician (male or female) gives you financial stability so that you can:

  • Decide to go back to school if you want to - i.e. change professions, pursue a master's, PhD
  • Quit you current position to look for a better one - won't have to worry about rent, food, and living expenses.
  • Don't have to work crazy hours at any job to save for a nice family vacation, for a downpayment on a house, or to eat at a nice restaurant

There are so many adults who wish they had the luxury to do these things when they want too, without having to worry about $$$. Many simply can't because they may have just bought a house with their partner, or they just had a new born with their partner, or they need the income their current crap position provides. 

So is a partner's occupation the primary reason for ending up with someone? No (exception - gold diggers). Being a physician in North America, regardless of gender and specialty, means you have an enormous earning potential. You can work the average hours and have a very comfortable living for your family OR you can also work additional hours and earn into the millions. Most specialties in medicine can be made lucrative if you wanted it to be.

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20 minutes ago, BoopityBoop said:

Woah. I think you're greatly misinformed.

First of all, gender pay gap is well and alive. I don't know what sources you're citing when you suggest women out earn men, but that is not the case in medicine, or  in Canada.

A state-by-state breakdown of the striking gender gap in doctors’ pay:
https://www.statnews.com/2017/04/26/gender-pay-gap-medicine/

Sex Differences in Physician Sex Differences in Physician Salary in US Public Medical Schools: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2532788

Canada's Gender Pay Gap: Why Canadian Women Still Earn Less Than Men
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/08/canada-gender-pay-gap_n_9393924.html

Second of all, I never stated that this only applied to marrying a woman. I clearly stated that whoever a physician decides to marry, MAN or WOMAN, has the option to not work if they don't want too. This doesn't only apply to raising kids, or mean that they would become trophy husbands/wives (although that is an extreme possibility).

Even as a guy, marrying a physician (male or female) gives you financial stability so that you can:

  • Decide to go back to school if you want to - i.e. change professions, pursue a master's, PhD
  • Quit you current position to look for a better one - won't have to worry about rent, food, and living expenses.
  • Don't have to work crazy hours at any job to save for a nice family vacation, for a downpayment on a house, or to eat at a nice restaurant

There are so many adults who wish they had the luxury to do these things when they want too, without having to worry about $$$. Many simply can't because they may have just bought a house with their partner, or they just had a new born with their partner, or they need the income their current crap position provides. 

So is a partner's occupation the primary reason for ending up with someone? No (exception - gold diggers). Being a physician in North America, regardless of gender and specialty, means you have an enormous earning potential. You can work the average hours and have a very comfortable living for your family OR you can also work additional hours and earn into the millions. Most specialties in medicine can be made lucrative if you wanted it to be.

Oh I wasn't aware men and women had different billing codes in medicine. When a male doctor sees a patient, he bills 35$, but the woman's code is only for 25$. That's how it works, right? 

 

http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/18/millennial-women-worry-about-out-earning-boyfriends-and-husbands.html

http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/apr/09/genevieve-wood/what-pay-gap-young-women-out-earn-men-cities-gop-p/

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds

https://moneyish.com/ish/young-women-are-getting-richer-as-young-men-get-poorer/

 

 

Like dude you know doctors aren't salaried right? They bill for services provided. These services have billing codes exclusive of gender (lol). What you make is up to you... your field, efficiency and work hours. Women tend to work fewer hours and have kids, hence they make less in medicine. They're also less likely to do the highest paying fields. 

As for women out earning men, it's only in 20s and 30s (for now). There's literally a million sources on this and I just picked a few. We're seeing this in every western country. 

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28 minutes ago, BoopityBoop said:

Woah. I think you're greatly misinformed.

First of all, gender pay gap is well and alive. I don't know what sources you're citing when you suggest women out earn men, but that is not the case in medicine, or  in Canada.

A state-by-state breakdown of the striking gender gap in doctors’ pay:
https://www.statnews.com/2017/04/26/gender-pay-gap-medicine/

Sex Differences in Physician Sex Differences in Physician Salary in US Public Medical Schools: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2532788

Canada's Gender Pay Gap: Why Canadian Women Still Earn Less Than Men
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/08/canada-gender-pay-gap_n_9393924.html

Second of all, I never stated that this only applied to marrying a woman. I clearly stated that whoever a physician decides to marry, MAN or WOMAN, has the option to not work if they don't want too. This doesn't only apply to raising kids, or mean that they would become trophy husbands/wives (although that is an extreme possibility).

Even as a guy, marrying a physician (male or female) gives you financial stability so that you can:

  • Decide to go back to school if you want to - i.e. change professions, pursue a master's, PhD
  • Quit you current position to look for a better one - won't have to worry about rent, food, and living expenses.
  • Don't have to work crazy hours at any job to save for a nice family vacation, for a downpayment on a house, or to eat at a nice restaurant

There are so many adults who wish they had the luxury to do these things when they want too, without having to worry about $$$. Many simply can't because they may have just bought a house with their partner, or they just had a new born with their partner, or they need the income their current crap position provides. 

So is a partner's occupation the primary reason for ending up with someone? No (exception - gold diggers). Being a physician in North America, regardless of gender and specialty, means you have an enormous earning potential. You can work the average hours and have a very comfortable living for your family OR you can also work additional hours and earn into the millions. Most specialties in medicine can be made lucrative if you wanted it to be.

None of your sources account for hours worked, which I think is necessary if you're comparing incomes.

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1 hour ago, medigeek said:

Oh I wasn't aware men and women had different billing codes in medicine. When a male doctor sees a patient, he bills 35$, but the woman's code is only for 25$. That's how it works, right?

http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

"Here's the slightly deflating caveat: this reverse gender gap, as it's known, applies only to unmarried, childless women under 30 who live in cities. The rest of working women — even those of the same age, but who are married or don't live in a major metropolitan area — are still on the less scenic side of the wage divide."

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/18/millennial-women-worry-about-out-earning-boyfriends-and-husbands.html

"So everyone knows, on average, - or at least I think most people know - that American women spend more time on housework than men, about 44 minutes more every day. But here's the weird thing. The researchers found that the gap in housework got even larger when the woman was the primary earner."

"But they looked at the data on women's incomes relative to their husbands. And they said, and I'll quote here, "a threatening wife takes on a greater share of housework so as to assuage the husband's unease with the situation," unquote. But there's something else that's really weird here too. There's other research that suggests that when a woman out-earns her partner, it affects fidelity."

http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/

"The average wage gap between American men and women currently hovers around 21%. For some women, notably African Americans and Latinas, this gap is much wider."

"According to the Pew Research Center‘s analysis of Bureau of Labor Statistics data from the 1980s to 2012, women’s earnings earnings relative to those of men began to fall around the time they reach their mid-30s, even if they had started out ahead. Pew cites motherhood and unpaid work at home as two potential factors for the widened gap, but Hired’s research shows that women with four or more years of experience are also as for salaries that are, on average, 5% lower than those of their male counterparts."

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/apr/09/genevieve-wood/what-pay-gap-young-women-out-earn-men-cities-gop-p/

"Young women today in metropolitan areas, for example, who are childless, single young women are actually outperforming males in that same category all over the country. Finally, we should note that this comparison holds true because childless, single young women tend to have more education and qualify for higher paying jobs."

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds

"While younger women in their 20s came out top in the earning stakes, the story was vastly different for workers in their 30s. A man turning 30 in 2006 would have brought in on average £8,775 more than a woman of the same age."

https://moneyish.com/ish/young-women-are-getting-richer-as-young-men-get-poorer/
 

"The percentage of young men earning less than $30,000 (in 2015 dollars) has nearly doubled to 41% over the past 40 years. Meanwhile, the percentage of young women earning more than $60,000 grew from about 2% to 13%.

So what’s behind this trend? One contributing factor is education, Vespa said.

'Women’s educational gains are outpacing men. They are more likely to have a college degree,' he explained. There is a direct correlation between education and employment, with the most advanced degrees having the lowest unemployment rates, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Higher education is also linked, not surprisingly, to higher income."

I've gone through each of your citations, to point out how your sweeping generalization are misleading or very circumstantial. You also have not proved that women out earn men in medicine.

And here's me throwing it back at you: find me a billing code where women are paid higher per consult, per procedure than men.

You have shown that:

  • Many citations refer to the same study that states women earn more than men when they are: younger, single, and more educated than men in metropolitan cities in the US
  • This trend disappears when they are 30 or early 30's. One of your sources states that a woman with 4 or more years of experience receive a salary 5% less than men
  • A sociological studies has theorized that women face tremendous societal pressure to not make males feel emasculated, and therefore take on more housework. According to a one study, men are more likely to cheat on women when they are financially dependent on them.

 

58 minutes ago, Monkey D. Luffy said:

None of your sources account for hours worked, which I think is necessary if you're comparing incomes.

Men and women may share the same billing code, but that doesn't mean that it socially acceptable for them to work the same hours. Women still feel the societal pressure and pressures within heterosexual relationships to fulfill their gender roles as a mother and a home maker. This impacts the number of women in leadership positions or "more demanding" medical subspecialties because they feel that it would further impact their abilities to raise children. Heterosexual men don't face these pressures or demands. 

If we have come to realize and accept that there are barriers to health beyond "exact distance to nearest GP clinic/grocery store/hospital" (i.e. social determinants of health), we should also recognize that there are social determinants that negatively impact one's income.

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6 hours ago, BoopityBoop said:

Men and women may share the same billing code, but that doesn't mean that it socially acceptable for them to work the same hours. Women still feel the societal pressure and pressures within heterosexual relationships to fulfill their gender roles as a mother and a home maker. This impacts the number of women in leadership positions or "more demanding" medical subspecialties because they feel that it would further impact their abilities to raise children. Heterosexual men don't face these pressures or demands. 

If we have come to realize and accept that there are barriers to health beyond "exact distance to nearest GP clinic/grocery store/hospital" (i.e. social determinants of health), we should also recognize that there are social determinants that negatively impact one's income.

1

I'm not really what you are proposing then @BoopityBoop. The reality is we have a perfectly transparent equal pay structure. Women and men are paid exactly the same for the exact work they do. Woman earn less than men because they choose to work in more lifestyle-friendly specialties and work fewer hours. 

specialty_breakout-1473721469348.png

This chart is from the US but the Canadian data is the same (https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/policy-research/physician-historical-data/2015-06-spec-sex.pdf); women prefer specialties such as Pediatrics, FM and psych while men tend to dominate surgical fields and busier (but higher paying) IM fields like cardio and GI. I maybe do agree that we can encourage women (if they want) to pursue these fields but I don't think women are locked out of these fields right now anyways. Women just tend to have different priorities and many value strongly motherhood and making time for their children. Men biologically have more flexibility to delay conceiving a child than women. On my anesthesia rotation for example, I saw plenty of female anesthesiologists and many of them worked only part-time (~3 days/week) while nearly all their male counterparts worked full-time so obviously, the males will earn more. How do you we propose we fix that? Lower men's billing codes to even out the income? These women were brilliant at their job and found a great balance between what they value most, this should be celebrated not a source of shame for men and women.

What we should pursue is equality of opportunities which I think is more or less what we have now, not the totalitarian (and very dangerous) fantasy of opportunity equality of outcome. Men and women are different and have innately different priorities at different times. Women shouldn't be shamed for valuing family over career and vice versa if they choose to.

Further, women now outnumber men in medical schools and certain specialties like OB/Gyn are becoming nearly all female (new residents). Why aren't you protesting that?

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28 minutes ago, zizoupanda said:

I'm not really what you are proposing then @BoopityBoop. The reality is we have a perfectly transparent equal pay structure. Women and men are paid exactly the same for the exact work they do. Woman earn less than men because they choose to work in more lifestyle-friendly specialties and work fewer hours.

To be fair to the other side: there is no "choice" when it comes to the match. It's all about who ranks you first. That's one question I would be interested to see CaRMS answer: is there any gender bias in final rankings for each specialty?

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1 hour ago, zizoupanda said:

I'm not really what you are proposing then @BoopityBoop. The reality is we have a perfectly transparent equal pay structure. Women and men are paid exactly the same for the exact work they do. Woman earn less than men because they choose to work in more lifestyle-friendly specialties and work fewer hours. 

specialty_breakout-1473721469348.png

This chart is from the US but the Canadian data is the same (https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/policy-research/physician-historical-data/2015-06-spec-sex.pdf); women prefer specialties such as Pediatrics, FM and psych while men tend to dominate surgical fields and busier (but higher paying) IM fields like cardio and GI. I maybe do agree that we can encourage women (if they want) to pursue these fields but I don't think women are locked out of these fields right now anyways. Women just tend to have different priorities and many value strongly motherhood and making time for their children. Men biologically have more flexibility to delay conceiving a child than women. On my anesthesia rotation for example, I saw plenty of female anesthesiologists and many of them worked only part-time (~3 days/week) while nearly all their male counterparts worked full-time so obviously, the males will earn more. How do you we propose we fix that? Lower men's billing codes to even out the income? These women were brilliant at their job and found a great balance between what they value most, this should be celebrated not a source of shame for men and women.

What we should pursue is equality of opportunities which I think is more or less what we have now, not the totalitarian (and very dangerous) fantasy of opportunity equality of outcome. Men and women are different and have innately different priorities at different times. Women shouldn't be shamed for valuing family over career and vice versa if they choose to.

Further, women now outnumber men in medical schools and certain specialties like OB/Gyn are becoming nearly all female (new residents). Why aren't you protesting that?

Definitely NOT the same reality we have at Laval, where the Female/Male residents ratio in General Surgery must be something like 3 F: 1 M, about 90% of residents in Obs-Gyn are Female as well as about 40-50% of Uro residents.

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23 minutes ago, MDLaval said:

Definitely NOT the same reality we have at Laval, where the Female/Male residents ratio in General Surgery must be something like 3 F: 1 M, about 90% of residents in Obs-Gyn are Female as well as about 40-50% of Uro residents.

The data is definitely changing. The same article has a graph on new graduates:

specialty_by_year_2015-1473790795526.png

1 hour ago, insomnias said:

To be fair to the other side: there is no "choice" when it comes to the match. It's all about who ranks you first. That's one question I would be interested to see CaRMS answer: is there any gender bias in final rankings for each specialty?

I detest the CaRMS process for its lack of transparency and nepotism more than anyone but I have not seen any evidence of gender discrimination within CaRMS. By that logic, would it be fair per the above graph to say that there is discrimination against males candidates in OB/Gyn and Peds?

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3 hours ago, zizoupanda said:

I'm not really what you are proposing then @BoopityBoop. The reality is we have a perfectly transparent equal pay structure. Women and men are paid exactly the same for the exact work they do. 1) Woman earn less than men because they choose to work in more lifestyle-friendly specialties and work fewer hours. 

This chart is from the US but the Canadian data is the same (https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/policy-research/physician-historical-data/2015-06-spec-sex.pdf); women prefer specialties such as Pediatrics, FM and psych while men tend to dominate surgical fields and busier (but higher paying) IM fields like cardio and GI. 2) I maybe do agree that we can encourage women (if they want) to pursue these fields but I don't think women are locked out of these fields right now anyways. 3) Women just tend to have different priorities and many value strongly motherhood and making time for their children. Men biologically have more flexibility to delay conceiving a child than women. On my anesthesia rotation for example, I saw plenty of female anesthesiologists and many of them worked only part-time (~3 days/week) while nearly all their male counterparts worked full-time so obviously, the males will earn more. 4) How do you we propose we fix that? Lower men's billing codes to even out the income? These women were brilliant at their job and found a great balance between what they value most, this should be celebrated not a source of shame for men and women.

5) What we should pursue is equality of opportunities which I think is more or less what we have now, not the totalitarian (and very dangerous) fantasy of opportunity equality of outcome. Men and women are different and have innately different priorities at different times. 6) Women shouldn't be shamed for valuing family over career and vice versa if they choose to.

Further, women now outnumber men in medical schools and certain specialties like OB/Gyn are becoming nearly all female (new residents). 7) Why aren't you protesting that?

1) You are assuming that women and female medical students freely choose work life-style friendly specialties and work less hours for themselves, without external influences/pressure. Many of the reasons for choosing life-style friendly specialties and working less hours is because they feel pressured to be the flexible one who can care for children/maintain a family - in the present or in the future. Women are at many times pressured to work less and therefore be paid less because of the responsibility that society put on them. 

2) Just because women aren't locked out of these field, does not mean that it is just as easy for them to enter into these field as it is to enter the nursing profession or obgyn. 

3) Women don't simply "tend to have different priorities", they grew up in a society where they are told their priorities are different from a man. In the 50's, it may have been about being a good mother and housewife. Today, society is more accepting of women entering STEM field, but only under the condition that it doesn't affect her ability to rear children and take care of their families.

4) We need to consider the reasons these women are working part-time and more men aren't working part-time. I never suggested women shouldn't work part time. What I'm trying to say is that many times, they work part-time because they also have to balance their full-time job as a mom and home maker. We already address this problem in a similar context of clinician scientists, who can't take on as much clinical duties because they also do research. Departments will often pool a small proportion of billings from staff who are clinicians and use this as salaries for clinician scientists to help offset their disproportionate incomes. Even with this, clinician-scientists earn less than the sole clinicians, but the gap is somewhat reduced. This also happens in departments that value research and care for the work their clinician-scientist colleagues do.

5) You don't recognize that there ISN'T equality of opportunities because you aren't a woman going through medical school, or practicing medicine. This is an article by CMAJ that explores why we don't have more women in leadership positions medicine, when there have been more females entering medicine than males in 1995, and consistently more in the last decade: https://cmajnews.com/2018/03/26/rise-of-women-in-medicine-not-matched-by-leadership-roles-cmaj-109-5567/

6) I agree women nor man should be shamed for valuing family over career, but women are shamed for valuing career equally to their families. When men take more time for their families and decide to work less, they are seen as being a good husband and a good partner. When women take more time for their careers and less for their families, they are viewed as a less competent parent, and not welcomed in their leadership positions. Read the article by CMAJ above. 

7) I never protested for equality in the # of women in individual specialties. I agree that entering specific fields such as Urology and Orthopedics is much easier for women in 2018 than it was back in 1980. But that doesn't mean that there's an even playing field. There are faculty who still believe that women shouldn't go into surgery, and there are faculty who are hesitant accepting female residents who are married or engaged and may choose to become pregnant during their residency/training. 
 

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5 minutes ago, BoopityBoop said:

1) You are assuming that women and female medical students freely choose work life-style friendly specialties and work less hours for themselves, without external influences/pressure. Many of the reasons for choosing life-style friendly specialties and working less hours is because they feel pressured to be the flexible one who can care for children/maintain a family - in the present or in the future. Women are at many times pressured to work less and therefore be paid less because of the responsibility that society put on them. 

2) Just because women aren't locked out of these field, does not mean that it is just as easy for them to enter into these field as it is to enter the nursing profession or obgyn. 

3) Women don't simply "tend to have different priorities", they grew up in a society where they are told their priorities are different from a man. In the 50's, it may have been about being a good mother and housewife. Today, society is more accepting of women entering STEM field, but only under the condition that it doesn't affect her ability to rear children and take care of their families.

4) We need to consider the reasons these women are working part-time and more men aren't working part-time. I never suggested women shouldn't work part time. What I'm trying to say is that many times, they work part-time because they also have to balance their full-time job as a mom and home maker. We already address this problem in a similar context of clinician scientists, who can't take on as much clinical duties because they also do research. Departments will often pool a small proportion of billings from staff who are clinicians and use this as salaries for clinician scientists to help offset their disproportionate incomes. Even with this, clinician-scientists earn less than the sole clinicians, but the gap is somewhat reduced. This also happens in departments that value research and care for the work their clinician-scientist colleagues do.

5) You don't recognize that there ISN'T equality of opportunities because you aren't a woman going through medical school, or practicing medicine. This is an article by CMAJ that explores why we don't have more women in leadership positions medicine, when there have been more females entering medicine than males in 1995, and consistently more in the last decade: https://cmajnews.com/2018/03/26/rise-of-women-in-medicine-not-matched-by-leadership-roles-cmaj-109-5567/

6) I agree women nor man should be shamed for valuing family over career, but women are shamed for valuing career equally to their families. When men take more time for their families and decide to work less, they are seen as being a good husband and a good partner. When women take more time for their careers and less for their families, they are viewed as a less competent parent, and not welcomed in their leadership positions. Read the article by CMAJ above. 

7) I never protested for equality in the # of women in individual specialties. I agree that entering specific fields such as Urology and Orthopedics is much easier for women in 2018 than it was back in 1980. But that doesn't mean that there's an even playing field. There are faculty who still believe that women shouldn't go into surgery, and there are faculty who are hesitant accepting female residents who are married or engaged and may choose to become pregnant during their residency/training. 
 

I do agree that there is some societal pressures placed on women to take up a more active role in the family. 

Could you propose a solution to this gender pay gap in medicine? 

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Just now, ArchEnemy said:

I do agree that there is some societal pressures placed on women to take up a more active role in the family. 

Could you propose a solution to this gender pay gap in medicine? 

To be honest - a lot of the pay gap in medicine is a cultural/systemic problem. There isn't one problem that is only exclusive to medicine and fixable. Solutions I can think of on the top of my head:

1) Training in medicine. The residency training was modelled for men who had the time to work/study relentless hours while their wife would raise their children and be a home maker. This isn't the case any more. We also have students entering residency older than previous. If we want to give everyone the opportunity to pursue what they want, programs could look at changing the structure of residency to reduce the work demand, be more flexible, in exchange for a longer training period.

2) Change the culture in how we view women and men who take on the parental role. Truth be told, even for clinician scientists, there are some departments within institutions that don't value them. Clinicians in these departments don't find it fair that part of their earnings are given to a clinician scientists who do "less work" than they do. This mentality suggests that the countless hours put into research by clinician scientists are insignificant. This mentality is similar to those who want to be active parents as well as physicians: you are solely liable for figuring out how to balance career and family. We need to appreciate the hours our colleagues are putting into parenting. This could be through a higher base salary for those who work part time, but it could also be as simple as allowing more flexible work schedules. 

3) Transparency in income. In the recent years, this has been becoming less and less of a problem in all fields. Even in medicine for those paid FFS, you can ensure women are getting paid the same per procedure/consult as men do. However, there are still areas where salaries are involved when women are low-balled in the negotiation table. In Iceland it's now illegal to pay women less than men. Employers are allowed to adjust pay based on work experience, performance and other aspects, but they have to prove it's not lower based on gender. It's a new law and carefully observed of the outcomes. If something like this was enforced for hospital networks or academic institutions paying physicians salaries, it may be one solution.

These are just thoughts on the top of my head, but I'm sure there are economists and labour policy experts that thought through this and have way better suggestions.

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3 hours ago, marrakech said:

Sadly, there are dating website like "SeekingArrangement" which precisely fit the stereotype of wealthy older male usually with college ageish women usually, playing into the "Sugar Baby" and "Sugar Daddy" roles.  The men can even give allowances, etc..  It's not as if it's unpopular - there are millions of members in North America, including 1.5 million college students.  Despite a somewhat conservative tone in today's society, this type of situation seems to thrive (even at .. Mcgill - link).

I've also seen women, who are by no means gold-diggers go for a guy in large part because he could offer them what "ordinary" guys couldn't - luxury vacations,etc..  

Seekingarrangement is nothing new. Neither is the sugar daddy thing. But that's something of its own - the "sugar daddy" ordeal. It isn't genuine dating by any means, just financing someone in return for some favours. 

I was speaking in the context of genuine dating and directly financing someone doesn't fit that category. 

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On 3/29/2018 at 0:16 PM, BoopityBoop said:

To be honest - a lot of the pay gap in medicine is a cultural/systemic problem. There isn't one problem that is only exclusive to medicine and fixable. Solutions I can think of on the top of my head:

1) Training in medicine. The residency training was modelled for men who had the time to work/study relentless hours while their wife would raise their children and be a home maker. This isn't the case any more. We also have students entering residency older than previous. If we want to give everyone the opportunity to pursue what they want, programs could look at changing the structure of residency to reduce the work demand, be more flexible, in exchange for a longer training period.

2) Change the culture in how we view women and men who take on the parental role. Truth be told, even for clinician scientists, there are some departments within institutions that don't value them. Clinicians in these departments don't find it fair that part of their earnings are given to a clinician scientists who do "less work" than they do. This mentality suggests that the countless hours put into research by clinician scientists are insignificant. This mentality is similar to those who want to be active parents as well as physicians: you are solely liable for figuring out how to balance career and family. We need to appreciate the hours our colleagues are putting into parenting. This could be through a higher base salary for those who work part time, but it could also be as simple as allowing more flexible work schedules. 

3) Transparency in income. In the recent years, this has been becoming less and less of a problem in all fields. Even in medicine for those paid FFS, you can ensure women are getting paid the same per procedure/consult as men do. However, there are still areas where salaries are involved when women are low-balled in the negotiation table. In Iceland it's now illegal to pay women less than men. Employers are allowed to adjust pay based on work experience, performance and other aspects, but they have to prove it's not lower based on gender. It's a new law and carefully observed of the outcomes. If something like this was enforced for hospital networks or academic institutions paying physicians salaries, it may be one solution.

These are just thoughts on the top of my head, but I'm sure there are economists and labour policy experts that thought through this and have way better suggestions.

My issue with 1. is that training periods are already so long we can't make them any longer unless we want to train for our entire lives. 

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Canada could always move towards a European model for medical school training.

Admission straight from HS. 3 years basic/clinical sciences, 2 years clerkship & electives. Option of having an extra research year for anyone who wants a BSc + MD. Upsides are that we could save everyone potentially 2-3 years (assuming the average student now has 4 years undergrad and goes to a 4 year program). You could potentially be a staff family doctor by 25 or general surgeon by 30.

Downside is that during medical school the 'weeding process' would be active, which would change the atmosphere significantly. Students would definitely be less mature and less well-rounded. Medical students/residents/attendings would become more isolated from the rest of university and have fewer opportunities to have experienced any other career.

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27 minutes ago, 1D7 said:

Canada could always move towards a European model for medical school training.

Admission straight from HS. 3 years basic/clinical sciences, 2 years clerkship & electives. Option of having an extra research year for anyone who wants a BSc + MD. Upsides are that we could save everyone potentially 2-3 years (assuming the average student now has 4 years undergrad and goes to a 4 year program). You could potentially be a staff family doctor by 25 or general surgeon by 30.

Downside is that during medical school the 'weeding process' would be active, which would change the atmosphere significantly. Students would definitely be less mature and less well-rounded. Medical students/residents/attendings would become more isolated from the rest of university and have fewer opportunities to have experienced any other career.

It is a tempting model in many ways - shorter, cheaper, and the premed degree would be designed to have people branch out to a variety of health care related fields. Europe often stretches out residency so the times savings may not be as much as it appears. 

You are right that it would make the beginning part quite intense and frankly brutal. You think admission to university is hard now, pressure to pick a career is hard now...

and yeah it does box the field into a corner. People with my background would never become doctors as a personal example. It can create inbreeding and group think. 

 

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I prefer our model. I have a degree in English literature and I think getting that opportunity to study the arts was so valuable to my medical training and really enriches my work. I knew I wanted to be a doctor when I was in high school but I also knew I wanted to take my “last chance” to study something else I felt passionate about. 

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13 minutes ago, ellorie said:

I prefer our model. I have a degree in English literature and I think getting that opportunity to study the arts was so valuable to my medical training and really enriches my work. I knew I wanted to be a doctor when I was in high school but I also knew I wanted to take my “last chance” to study something else I felt passionate about. 

and you see no matter how strangely people look at people with non traditional degrees, it doesn't change the fact that they usually work and even bring something special to the table. Medical science is so different than most of what is actually taught in premed that it doesn't matter much. I wouldn't want the entire room to be filled with non-premed style undergrads but I also don't want it filled with premed clones :)

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On 2/27/2018 at 10:59 AM, GrouchoMarx said:

i do because im an average looking ethnic guy which means im below average in the dating world.

if youre a good looking white fellow you can probably leave it out.

i find that, beyond it attracting the golddiggers, it can draw other professionals to you, as we are a rare commodity in the world of online dating.

What a truth bomb haha. I agree though, being a doctor isn't a silver bullet to relationship struggles. I wonder if there are poor saps who think models (exaggerating here, but women in general) will be lining up to be with them because they are dr's.

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13 hours ago, ellorie said:

I prefer our model. I have a degree in English literature and I think getting that opportunity to study the arts was so valuable to my medical training and really enriches my work. I knew I wanted to be a doctor when I was in high school but I also knew I wanted to take my “last chance” to study something else I felt passionate about. 

Do you think that psychiatry is particularly suitable for applying knowledge from a language/literature degree? 

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I really like the premed model in Quebec. Those who know early on that they want to pursue medicine can do so after Cegep (thus saving 2-3 years vs those who enter after a bachelor's). Others that realize later/want to study something else before, can apply after their bachelor's, master's, etc. It's especially a great advantage for women. The extra 2-3 years head start (against the biological clock) facilitates pursuing a longer/more intense residency. In Quebec, you finish 5 years of high school at 17yo, do two years of Cegep (19yo) followed by 4-5 years of med school (23-24yo). You could finish a 5 year residency before 30 yo. The government spends less time and money (on the bachelor's degree) to train these doctors and get more return for their investment (doctors are 2-3 years younger when they start their practice). For the premed students, they accumulate less debt by not doing a bachelor's degree.

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I’m sure this is school specific, but I took a BA in psychology before my BSc in Bio... my ability to read, understand and synthesize had so much more room to grow in Arts. We got a lot more practice which obviously helped, but there was also a bit more expectation of thinking for myself and being able to justify it. 

I find my biology program to be a lot of rote memorization and not as much active problem solving/synthesizing. I’m grateful that I have my previous degree now!

I’m not in med school yet... but maybe soon! :)  

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