99 percent of McGill medical residents vote in favour of strike

[la marzocco]

yikes.

https://www.mcgilldaily.com/2018/02/99-percent-of-mcgill-medical-residents-vote-in-favour-of-strike/

[JohnGrisham]

Typical Quebec. 44k is not bad in the context of your extremely low tuition, often shorter training time for undergrad, and far lower living costs.

 

[goleafsgochris]

They should accept a higher wage and give up some of the dumb benefits they have.  Like a "food allowance?"  Wtf?  Just give them the money don't get into this weird system of instead giving benefits they may or may not want.  

I dunno the one thing ive learned from Quebec protests and strikes over the last decade is that protesting and striking WORKS.  It may look ridiculous at times but their unwillingness to take shit is why their tuition hasn't skyrocketed like the rest of north america

[insomnias]

8 minutes ago, goleafsgochris said:

They should accept a higher wage and give up some of the dumb benefits they have.  Like a "food allowance?"  Wtf?  Just give them the money don't get into this weird system of instead giving benefits they may or may not want.  

I dunno the one thing ive learned from Quebec protests and strikes over the last decade is that protesting and striking WORKS.  It may look ridiculous at times but their unwillingness to take shit is why their tuition hasn't skyrocketed like the rest of north america

If you're negotiating, cash is king. You get a lot more out of a $100/month raise than a $100/month food allowance. Conversely, your employer saves a lot more by giving you the latter, and the union can come back and call it a win--that's probably why they have those benefits.

[rmorelan]

1 hour ago, JohnGrisham said:

Typical Quebec. 44k is not bad in the context of your extremely low tuition, often shorter training time for undergrad, and far lower living costs.

 

That is part of the problem - it is a system: low tuition, and low wage. I can imagine you flipped it and gave them our wage but also boost tuition by over 20K a year to match the rest of the country they wouldn't be happy.

That being said the students of Quebec have been extremely vocal and active about protecting themselves. There are some lessons there to say the least - they would have gone completely on strike rather than accept the tuition increases we have just accepted without a real thought in Ontario. Now they will use that aggressiveness on their low wage, and I would not be surprised if they win there as well.

[JohnGrisham]

I'm just bitter about the rent and tuition I pay in comparison

 

Really Quebec is smart. They use the language barriers to their benefit of curtailing excess immigration and have a large rental housing stock etc. The daycare programs too. Its the perfect storm of benefits all around, the beauty of equalization payments to their bellé province. 

 

[indefatigable]

2 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Really Quebec is smart. They use the language barriers to their benefit of curtailing excess immigration and have a large rental housing stock etc. The daycare programs too. Its the perfect storm of benefits all around, the beauty of equalization payments to their bellé province. 

 

Actually immigration is a problem because of the language barrier - it's a constant debate on how to attract/retain immigrants to the province.  There's a fair amount of poverty in Montreal and the lower housing costs is partly a result of economic conditions.  Equalization is also a bitter topic, with many Québecers convinced the Feds are taking the better part of Québec revenue.

As regards the strike, like other posters have mentioned, there's no glory in working really long hours for low compensation.  If as a labour bargaining unit, the threat of the strike increases wages, then good for the residents.  

Regarding fees, supposedly low tuition disproportionately benefits higher SES, since they're more likely to go to university.  It's been said that grants & scholarships directed to low SES is more effective, but I'd guess what would happen in Québec is just see high tuition with no compensating grants, like almost everywhere else and thus affecting lower SES even more.

[MDLaval]

7 hours ago, la marzocco said:

yikes.

https://www.mcgilldaily.com/2018/02/99-percent-of-mcgill-medical-residents-vote-in-favour-of-strike/

Not only McGill's residents voted for it. The FMRQ got a "yes" vote from 97% of all the residents in the province of Quebec regarding the possibility of a strike.

[MDLaval]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-medical-residents-vote-to-strike-if-contract-negotiations-break-down-1.4521949

[JohnGrisham]

1 hour ago, marrakech said:

Actually immigration is a problem because of the language barrier - it's a constant debate on how to attract/retain immigrants to the province.  There's a fair amount of poverty in Montreal and the lower housing costs is partly a result of economic conditions.  Equalization is also a bitter topic, with many Québecers convinced the Feds are taking the better part of Québec revenue.

As regards the strike, like other posters have mentioned, there's no glory in working really long hours for low compensation.  If as a labour bargaining unit, the threat of the strike increases wages, then good for the residents.  

Regarding fees, supposedly low tuition disproportionately benefits higher SES, since they're more likely to go to university.  It's been said that grants & scholarships directed to low SES is more effective, but I'd guess what would happen in Québec is just see high tuition with no compensating grants, like almost everywhere else and thus affecting lower SES even more.

I think they key to the bold is that...quebecers are convinced by their politicians that is the case. Vast majority of data(biased and somewhat unbiased) I have read, and economic constructs point to the exact opposite. It's been a few years since undergraduate economics and poli sci though. 

Also, i don't think poverty is the only reason for low rental rates: the regions have historically had a higher proportion of rental accommodation stock, so a high supply(albeit aging and quite old), but like you mentioned relatively less demand due to the various barriers. Yes salaries are generally lower too, but i'm not convinced that it is proportionally lower to the point of being in 1:1 ratio  of difference with rent etc. (of course speaking for the working class wages)

[indefatigable]

2 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

I think they key to the bold is that...quebecers are convinced by their politicians that is the case. Vast majority of data(biased and somewhat unbiased) I have read, and economic constructs point to the exact opposite. It's been a few years since undergraduate economics and poli sci though. 

Also, i don't think poverty is the only reason for low rental rates: the regions have historically had a higher proportion of rental accommodation stock, so a high supply(albeit aging and quite old), but like you mentioned relatively less demand due to the various barriers. Yes salaries are generally lower too, but i'm not convinced that it is proportionally lower to the point of being in 1:1 ratio  of difference with rent etc. (of course speaking for the working class wages)

Sure.. yeah, I think that rhetoric is more associated with independent i.e. séparatiste politics since it serves their agenda.  AB I think is the most consistent contributor.  

I agree with what you're saying regarding living to some extent  - Montréal has a very good standard of living compared to many places, especially for lower or middle income earners.  Demand plays a huge role though, since New York is also much more of a rental city, but even the Bronx is getting pricy now.  It would take a much higher income in New York to have the same standard of living that could be attained in Montréal.  But, even on this forum, we've discussed that working in Montréal as a médecin is not so évident haha, even less so than other major cities I would think..    

 

[insomnias]

13 minutes ago, frazier said:

Isn't it unethical for residents/doctors to strike because it puts the patients's health at risk??? "Do no Harm" - Hippocratic oath.

Actually, the interesting thing about a resident strike is that you can't as easily argue that it puts patients' health at risk, since attendings are supposed to be overseeing everything, and they're the ones most responsible for care, etc.

[la marzocco]

22 minutes ago, frazier said:

Isn't it unethical for residents/doctors to strike because it puts the patients's health at risk??? "Do no Harm" - Hippocratic oath.

 

7 minutes ago, insomnias said:

Actually, the interesting thing about a resident strike is that you can't as easily argue that it puts patients' health at risk, since attendings are supposed to be overseeing everything, and they're the ones most responsible for care, etc.

Ha - great MMI-type question surveying the legal/ethics junction. A few extracts I found which talks to these two slants quite well:

• One of the first questions to ask about whether or not a physician can strike involves its impact on the Hippocratic oath. Even if the law says a physician can strike, his or her moral and ethical responsibilities to a patient must be paramount, said David Kemp, a lawyer who writes on medical ethics. “For physicians to ethically engage in organized work stoppage, they must first exhaust all other avenues of negotiation,” he says. “It’s my view that, due to the unique nature of the doctor-patient relationship, [physicians] must also take all necessary steps to safeguard the welfare of patients before engaging in any type of organized work stoppage.” - ethical slant.
• To @insomnias's point: “This makes sense, because by definition residents cannot be considered essential services,” he said, later adding that the years-long effort “had the benefit of capturing public attention while maintaining public support for the cause.” - legal slant.

Those actions shouldn’t involve “a full withdrawal of services,” but should recognize that physicians have the rights of workers in other fields that provide essential services, such as police and firefighters. “Like any other profession, they should have as a negotiating tool the ability to have some form of collective action if they feel they are mistreated,” he said. 

 

[insomnias]

1 hour ago, frazier said:

Would you consider nurses to be essential services? Technically monitoring patients could be left to the attendings because they are supposed to be overseeing everything, and they're the ones most responsible for care, etc

I mean... they've gone on strike before:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/almost-3000-ontario-nurses-health-workers-go-on-strike/article22716685/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/capital-health-nurse-strike-what-you-need-to-know-1.2596451

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-nurses-launch-illegal-strike-1.171832

[BoopityBoop]

Did someone actually ask if nurses were essential services? *smh*

[la marzocco]

The FMRQ and the Ministry of Health have agreed on a new contract: http://lactualite.com/actualites/2018/04/17/les-3600-medecins-residents-enterinent-leur-entente-de-principe-avec-quebec/

A few salient points: 

• The residents will obtain the same increases that unionized public sector employees had negotiated in their own separate contract; that is, 5.25% increase for the first five years.  For the sixth year of the contract, there is a trailer clause, suggesting that the residents will receive whatever increase the public sector employees would receive that year as well.

• They will undergo a salary analysis to look at comparables (likely looking at how much other residents are paid in other provinces) and increase the PGY1 salary.

• Calls will remain capped at 16 hours (as opposed to the 24-hr call models adopted by ROC) 

• Minor changes in tuition fees, etc.

 

[DermJuly2018PGY1]

1 hour ago, la marzocco said:

The FMRQ and the Ministry of Health have agreed on a new contract: http://lactualite.com/actualites/2018/04/17/les-3600-medecins-residents-enterinent-leur-entente-de-principe-avec-quebec/

A few salient points: 

• The residents will obtain the same increases that unionized public sector employees had negotiated in their own separate contract; that is, 5.25% increase for the first five years.  For the sixth year of the contract, there is a trailer clause, suggesting that the residents will receive whatever increase the public sector employees would receive that year as well.

• They will undergo a salary analysis to look at comparables (likely looking at how much other residents are paid in other provinces) and increase the PGY1 salary.

•  Calls will remain capped at 16 hours (as opposed to the 24-hr call models adopted by ROC) 

• Minor changes in tuition fees, etc.

 

So it seems as if the residents are still stuck with the dismissal 44K salary in their first year?

[samy]

3 hours ago, DermJuly2018PGY1 said:

So it seems as if the residents are still stuck with the dismissal 44K salary in their first year?

Non,

R1 Salary goes to 48k. Plus the call & teaching stipends, you get close to 55k for R1.

[TheSalmonMousse]

On 2/12/2018 at 6:51 PM, JohnGrisham said:

I think they key to the bold is that...quebecers are convinced by their politicians that is the case. Vast majority of data(biased and somewhat unbiased) I have read, and economic constructs point to the exact opposite. It's been a few years since undergraduate economics and poli sci though.

 

On 2/12/2018 at 7:55 PM, marrakech said:

Sure.. yeah, I think that rhetoric is more associated with independent i.e. séparatiste politics since it serves their agenda.  AB I think is the most consistent contributor.

You're right that QC receives the most, this is an easily verifiable statistic. What's often left unmentioned is that it is also the 2nd most populous province (transfer payments factor in GDP/capita). If you look at transfer payments/capita, I believe QC is 6th. I think its unfortunate that Quebec is always singled out on this issue. I've yet to see an editorial from a significant media outlet attacking MB or NB on this point for instance.

I've heard many QC nationalist leaders (esp. fiscally conservative ones) decry the transfer payments situation. Some have said it's a national source of shame. I think a lot of the resistance to the idea of independence comes from fear of the financial consequences for QC, and losing the federal transfer payments is definitely part of that.

[#YOLO]

all quebec does is complain. let them leave canada imo. 

[indefatigable]

2 hours ago, #YOLO said:

all quebec does is complain. let them leave canada imo. 

I've seen anti-francophone sentiment outside of QC and anti-anglophone sentiment within QC.  Yet, despite that, many QC and non-QCers do share genuine good will to each other, and the original "Canadians" I believe were QCers.  I think it's important to not let the inflammatory remarks of some more radical elements skew the dialogue, since many are proud of the association between English and French.  Outside of QC, US influence is much stronger, but it would even be stronger, rightly or wrongly, without QC.  The ROC would look much more like another state without QC.  Politics and the actions of government are one thing - people are another

[rmorelan]

11 hours ago, #YOLO said:

all quebec does is complain. let them leave canada imo. 

ha, even practically that would result in 1/3 of population leaving, and literally would split the rest of the country in half. I would suggest that would be a suboptimal solution

[ploughboy]

10 hours ago, rmorelan said:

ha, even practically that would result in 1/3 of population leaving, and literally would split the rest of the country in half. I would suggest that would be a suboptimal solution

Ya, but it would cut down the time it takes to travel from St. John's to Toronto!

 

(I'm here all week.  Try the veal...)

[TheSalmonMousse]

On 5/25/2018 at 10:52 PM, #YOLO said:

all quebec does is complain. let them leave canada imo. 

Did you mean to say all Canadian media does is complain about Quebec's complaining?

[#YOLO]

3 hours ago, TheSalmonMousse said:

Did you mean to say all Canadian media does is complain about Quebec's complaining?

no