No Chance?

[sadhopeful]

Be as honest and harsh as you want 

First Year; Life Sciences

My average for first Semester was  72. I thought I was smart enough for this I had a 91 average all throughout high school. 

Here's the thing about first semester; I tried, I studied and I studied hard, yet I could only get a 72 average which is a really bad GPA, around 2.7 if I'm not mistaken. I see people on here nervous about 3.9's so should I just accept that I am not smart enough for this? All I've ever done or been interested in my life was science and the human body. I don't know what to do. Be as harsh as you would like, I can take it. 

[SureThing]

I won't be harsh (you sound like you're plenty hard on yourself already), but I will be honest with you. 

You sound like you're in a bad place at the moment. You might feel demotivated or feel like giving up. That's okay. It sounds like you have high expectations for yourself and not living up to those expectations sucks. Trust me when I say that the majority of us on this forum and in your own life have been there. You're not alone.  

So let's talk about this. 

First off, university is vastly different from high school. That 91 average in high school is no joke, you're clearly capable but university is a different beast and requires different strategies and a different mindset to succeed in what is an entirely different educational experience. Think about the larger class sizes, less personal attention, and the often shorter time to learn more material, and of course the often great variability in teaching styles and methods. All of these things can contribute to your success and learning how to adapt your own personal study style to them is a key skill in higher education. But the point being is that there are likely external factors that contributed to you not meeting your GPA expectations. So, what can you do about that then? 

When I came in to University I certainly had to adapt my study style. I found that going to TA office hours and asking upper-year students how they studied to be a very useful exercise. Because, as I said before, they had been there before. They knew the strategies and were more than happy to help make that transition from high school to university easier. 

Secondly, and building off my last point, there's a lot of non-academic stress in University that doesn't get talked about too much but can play a huge part in success in university. There's often more pressure to do well, with less help from your support system. Whether this be because you moved away from home for University or you didn't have a lot of friends choose the school you did, the shift in the strength of your support system from high school to university can have dramatic effects. I know that it certainly did on me in my first semester. It took me realizing how much I appreciated and leaned on my support system in high school to reach out to establish a new one in university. Remember that your family and friends support you and want to see you do the very best you can. Sometimes this means admitting that you didn't live up to your own expectations in order to receive that support because, you guessed it, they've been there before and will often know what to do and how to cope. Remember, you don't have to go through this alone. 

Thirdly, it's going to be difficult, but try not to let your GPA define how you see yourself as a person. A poor GPA doesn't mean that you're 'not smart enough for this.' You tried and studied hard, but the results were what you were expecting, that sucks I know, but it doesn't mean you're not capable of meeting your own expectations. But I'll tell you something, the attitude of "I'll never be good enough for this" will eat you up inside and could quickly become very self-defeating. Don't let it become a self-fulfilling prophecy because I'm telling you right now that one semester of university can not and does not define whether or not 'you're smart enough for this'. Your current GPA represents but a fraction of your university career, so try not to let it define it so early on. These external factors I've been taking about likely played a part, now it's up to you to determine how you deal with those going forward. 

Fourthly. All you've ever been interested in is science and the human body? That's great! Use that as the motivation you need to get where you want to go, to talk to the people you need to, and to get the help that you need. Remember, the people around you want you to succeed, to pursue that interest in science in the human body, and to become a physician if you so desire. 

Lastly, let's about the practical issue at hand. And here it is: your 2.7 GPA is not the death sentence you seem to think it is. Sure, people are nervous about 3.9s but I'll be honest and say that some of them could have had a 2.7 in their first year as well. Most med schools in Canada understand the transition to university from high school is difficult and that first few semester can be rough. This is why they either drop your lowest grades from your overall GPA (U of T) or weight the upper years heavier than the lower years (Ottawa). Schools like Mac way the critical appraisal and reasoning skills section of the MCAT heavily and can make up for a lower GPA. Go check the interview invite thread, people get invited with <3.8s quite consistently. 

My point with all of this, is that you have plenty of time to get the help you need, plenty of time to get those 3.9s, and plenty of time to worry about decimal places in a few years time. For now, just focus on the first part. Reflect on what could have went wrong in your study habits, reflect on those external factors I was talking about and think about how they might have affected you, and finally, and probably most importantly, take stock of your mental health and wellness. If you're not doing okay and don't see yourself getting better, please reach out and talk to someone about it, whether that be a family member, a friend, a partner, an academic counselor, or one of the wonderful mental health professionals that likely are employed by your school for this very reason. 

Because remember, you're not alone. Plenty have been in your position before and gone on to do great things. It's not over and will get better. 

ST 

 

[plastics91]

are you doing life sci at UofT? If you are, please get out as fast as possible and go to either Western, Mac (life or health sci doesn't matter), or Ottawa.  You still have 3 years, don't waste them!

[sadhopeful]

On 2018-02-13 at 2:51 AM, SureThing said:

I won't be harsh (you sound like you're plenty hard on yourself already), but I will be honest with you. 

You sound like you're in a bad place at the moment. You might feel demotivated or feel like giving up. That's okay. It sounds like you have high expectations for yourself and not living up to those expectations sucks. Trust me when I say that the majority of us on this forum and in your own life have been there. You're not alone.  

So let's talk about this. 

First off, university is vastly different from high school. That 91 average in high school is no joke, you're clearly capable but university is a different beast and requires different strategies and a different mindset to succeed in what is an entirely different educational experience. Think about the larger class sizes, less personal attention, and the often shorter time to learn more material, and of course the often great variability in teaching styles and methods. All of these things can contribute to your success and learning how to adapt your own personal study style to them is a key skill in higher education. But the point being is that there are likely external factors that contributed to you not meeting your GPA expectations. So, what can you do about that then? 

When I came in to University I certainly had to adapt my study style. I found that going to TA office hours and asking upper-year students how they studied to be a very useful exercise. Because, as I said before, they had been there before. They knew the strategies and were more than happy to help make that transition from high school to university easier. 

Secondly, and building off my last point, there's a lot of non-academic stress in University that doesn't get talked about too much but can play a huge part in success in university. There's often more pressure to do well, with less help from your support system. Whether this be because you moved away from home for University or you didn't have a lot of friends choose the school you did, the shift in the strength of your support system from high school to university can have dramatic effects. I know that it certainly did on me in my first semester. It took me realizing how much I appreciated and leaned on my support system in high school to reach out to establish a new one in university. Remember that your family and friends support you and want to see you do the very best you can. Sometimes this means admitting that you didn't live up to your own expectations in order to receive that support because, you guessed it, they've been there before and will often know what to do and how to cope. Remember, you don't have to go through this alone. 

Thirdly, it's going to be difficult, but try not to let your GPA define how you see yourself as a person. A poor GPA doesn't mean that you're 'not smart enough for this.' You tried and studied hard, but the results were what you were expecting, that sucks I know, but it doesn't mean you're not capable of meeting your own expectations. But I'll tell you something, the attitude of "I'll never be good enough for this" will eat you up inside and could quickly become very self-defeating. Don't let it become a self-fulfilling prophecy because I'm telling you right now that one semester of university can not and does not define whether or not 'you're smart enough for this'. Your current GPA represents but a fraction of your university career, so try not to let it define it so early on. These external factors I've been taking about likely played a part, now it's up to you to determine how you deal with those going forward. 

Fourthly. All you've ever been interested in is science and the human body? That's great! Use that as the motivation you need to get where you want to go, to talk to the people you need to, and to get the help that you need. Remember, the people around you want you to succeed, to pursue that interest in science in the human body, and to become a physician if you so desire. 

Lastly, let's about the practical issue at hand. And here it is: your 2.7 GPA is not the death sentence you seem to think it is. Sure, people are nervous about 3.9s but I'll be honest and say that some of them could have had a 2.7 in their first year as well. Most med schools in Canada understand the transition to university from high school is difficult and that first few semester can be rough. This is why they either drop your lowest grades from your overall GPA (U of T) or weight the upper years heavier than the lower years (Ottawa). Schools like Mac way the critical appraisal and reasoning skills section of the MCAT heavily and can make up for a lower GPA. Go check the interview invite thread, people get invited with <3.8s quite consistently. 

My point with all of this, is that you have plenty of time to get the help you need, plenty of time to get those 3.9s, and plenty of time to worry about decimal places in a few years time. For now, just focus on the first part. Reflect on what could have went wrong in your study habits, reflect on those external factors I was talking about and think about how they might have affected you, and finally, and probably most importantly, take stock of your mental health and wellness. If you're not doing okay and don't see yourself getting better, please reach out and talk to someone about it, whether that be a family member, a friend, a partner, an academic counselor, or one of the wonderful mental health professionals that likely are employed by your school for this very reason. 

Because remember, you're not alone. Plenty have been in your position before and gone on to do great things. It's not over and will get better. 

ST 

 

Wow just thank you

[sadhopeful]

On 2018-02-13 at 8:18 AM, plastics91 said:

are you doing life sci at UofT? If you are, please get out as fast as possible and go to either Western, Mac (life or health sci doesn't matter), or Ottawa.  You still have 3 years, don't waste them!

Should I actually transfer? Is it just the school? To be honest there's plenty of people here doing really good maybe I honestly just.dont work hard enough 

[plastics91]

1 hour ago, sadhopeful said:

Should I actually transfer? Is it just the school? To be honest there's plenty of people here doing really good maybe I honestly just.dont work hard enough 

Yes. it's the school. Of course there are people doing well but there is a much higher proportion of people doing poorly, especially compared to other schools.

I have a friend who transferred to western in 3rd year. She never got above 90s at Uoft but is hitting high 90s at western. I have a friend who graduated med school in ottawa who tell me that was easier than UofT undergrad. I personally took a course at Ryerson bc of US and their mid terms are not even questions you'd get at UofT for pre-lab quizzes.

It's no joke, and it's not a hoax. If you want to go to medical school, switch to a different program. Much, much easier. Don't believe UofT who tells you you're never good enough and who never gives you the time of day to help you out in any way. It's a horrible program and I would never recommend it to anyone. I also have many friends whose sibling's been through it and who coached them to go to somewhere else for undergrad. They've all been successful in dentistry, medicine, etc. when their siblings who went to UofT weren't.

Canadian universities don't standardize grades according to school, and although it's my personal opinion this is total bullshit, it's the reality. You're shooting yourself in the foot by going to and staying in UofT for undergrad, it's just an unfair game form the getgo! I've made this mistake, thousands of other poor uoft undergrads did as well. Don't be a stupid like me and take the way out when you still have a chance (last 3 years very important). I'll be going to med school next year (waiting to interview at 3 places in Canada, acceptance at USMD) but it came only after 4 additional brutal years as premed..

disclaimer: if you do want to consider US MD at all, STAY IN UofT. They like won't even consider other schools bc they care about reputation.

 

[goleafsgochris]

On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎13 at 8:18 AM, plastics91 said:

are you doing life sci at UofT? If you are, please get out as fast as possible and go to either Western, Mac (life or health sci doesn't matter), or Ottawa.  You still have 3 years, don't waste them!

I came here to say this.  If you went to life sci at U of T, that is the reason.  Its hard to explain how different it is.  Unfortunately your assessment is correct in that you might have torpedoed your chances for school that are GPA-strict (like Mac), and may need to rely on best 2 or best 3 year schools.  Unless you manage to get the GPA up to mid 3's by the end of second semester if youre in full year courses.

[sangria]

(disclaimer: I went to U of T for undergrad for what it's worth)

 

Even if there is a difference in grades among schools, your grades are not going to drastically change from 2.7 to 3.9. There is something else at work -- I would suggest you start looking within you. Is it your study methods? Are most of your marks high, but you just do poorly on a few and they bring your GPA down?Is it the environment? What about your course selection? 

I'm not saying you shouldn't switch schools, but I think there is more at work here. 

[goleafsgochris]

I went to U of T undergrad and finished first year with a 3.5 (or maybe just above)...but there were times in the first year it looked like it would be WAY lower.  I got it up to over 3.85 by the end of 4th year...so if you can get it up to a reasonable point this year that may be possible.  Sangria is right if you actually finish at 2.7 it may be more than just the program and you may have to look more into your strategizing etc.  It may be a combination but I do think the university can play a large part.     

[sadhopeful]

On 2018-02-21 at 8:00 AM, sangria said:

(disclaimer: I went to U of T for undergrad for what it's worth)

 

Even if there is a difference in grades among schools, your grades are not going to drastically change from 2.7 to 3.9. There is something else at work -- I would suggest you start looking within you. Is it your study methods? Are most of your marks high, but you just do poorly on a few and they bring your GPA down?Is it the environment? What about your course selection? 

I'm not saying you shouldn't switch schools, but I think there is more at work here. 

I got an 81 in one subject, 80 in another, a 76 in another and it was one course that kind of messed up everything (i know my other marks aren't impressive but this one made me lose sleep) I got a 51 right on the dot. (These all count as half credits-) I am trying to improve my study habits but now I am conflicted because some people are telling me to transfer while others aren't, I do think I actually put time to study to be honest, I discovered some useful tools I find that I waste a lot of time writing notes instead of studying so I fixed that, hopefully I do better this semester? Honestly I don't even know anymore, would a masters be a good idea? Because that is what I am leaning towards.

[Egg_McMuffin]

On 2/21/2018 at 8:06 AM, goleafsgochris said:

  It may be a combination but I do think the university can play a large part.     

 

I agree with this. I went to UofT life sci (st. george) for my first degree and my first year my GPA was around 3.0. There was definitely an upward trend in subsequent years, but none of them were med-school competitive. Of course there were other factors in play, but staying at UofT certainly didn't make my life easier, and definitely made my mental health issues worse (honestly the self-loathing and anxiety from my god awful transcript never left me). You can still work on your other issues (work ethic, studying strategies, personal problems, etc.) at another school, and there'll be more breathing room to do so there.

It's too early to think about a masters (and no, it won't help much if your GPA is shit). Just focus on damage control of your transcript.

For the record, I went and did a second degree after UofT. Ten years after I started my first year at UofT, and I finally just got my first med school interview this year. Would I have gotten an interview sooner if I didn't go to UofT? Hard to say....but I know my transcript from UofT didn't help.

[goleafsgochris]

9 hours ago, Egg_McMuffin said:

I agree with this. I went to UofT life sci (st. george) for my first degree and my first year my GPA was around 3.0. There was definitely an upward trend in subsequent years, but none of them were med-school competitive. Of course there were other factors in play, but staying at UofT certainly didn't make my life easier, and definitely made my mental health issues worse (honestly the self-loathing and anxiety from my god awful transcript never left me). You can still work on your other issues (work ethic, studying strategies, personal problems, etc.) at another school, and there'll be more breathing room to do so there.

It's too early to think about a masters (and no, it won't help much if your GPA is shit). Just focus on damage control of your transcript.

For the record, I went and did a second degree after UofT. Ten years after I started my first year at UofT, and I finally just got my first med school interview this year. Would I have gotten an interview sooner if I didn't go to UofT? Hard to say....but I know my transcript from UofT didn't help.

I think a problem is when you choose universities, its hard to understand just how difficult a difficult program to me.  I remember cruising to 90s in grade 12, and at some point a family friend warned me that at U of T Life Sci, its much harder and everyone in the class wants to get into med school.  Grade 12 me just brushed it off--I had never been challenged or had issues getting 90s, why would I in university?  I truly think if I had been less cocky I may have had a good university experience at Queens/Western, and likely still would have done med school.  And I also may have been less bitter about the whole thing.

The good thing for egg.mcmuffin is if you have an interview, you've likely undone the damage to a large extent; and once you get into med school it doesn't really matter (aside from the added wasted years)

[011235813]

On 2/21/2018 at 3:02 AM, plastics91 said:

disclaimer: if you do want to consider US MD at all, STAY IN UofT. They like won't even consider other schools bc they care about reputation.

 

Can't comment to other experiences, but I have a lot of friends in US medical schools who did NOT go to UofT (a bunch of them were York students, some went to schools like Mac and Western). and some of them are at REALLY good schools.

It's possible that US schools place a heavy emphasis on reputation, but I know for a fact that it can at the least be overcome if it's really such a big factor

[JohnGrisham]

27 minutes ago, f011235813 said:

Can't comment to other experiences, but I have a lot of friends in US medical schools who did NOT go to UofT (a bunch of them were York students, some went to schools like Mac and Western). and some of them are at REALLY good schools.

It's possible that US schools place a heavy emphasis on reputation, but I know for a fact that it can at the least be overcome if it's really such a big factor

Agree. That is completely wrong. People at Brock and Laurentian were at US interviews.  If that's not 180' opposite of UofT I dont know what is.

 

A 4.0 coupled with a high MCAT is enough to alleviate that your 4.0 is legitimate enough. Then of course non academics and being an interesting person.

[sangria]

12 hours ago, sadhopeful said:

I got an 81 in one subject, 80 in another, a 76 in another and it was one course that kind of messed up everything (i know my other marks aren't impressive but this one made me lose sleep) I got a 51 right on the dot. (These all count as half credits-) I am trying to improve my study habits but now I am conflicted because some people are telling me to transfer while others aren't, I do think I actually put time to study to be honest, I discovered some useful tools I find that I waste a lot of time writing notes instead of studying so I fixed that, hopefully I do better this semester? Honestly I don't even know anymore, would a masters be a good idea? Because that is what I am leaning towards.

1. My opinion is, for you, switching schools and doing the MSc are kind of similar. For some people, that might work. For you, switching schools may work to change the 81 to an 85, but there will be less of an effect on the 51 --> you can dig yourself out of a B+, but that 51, as you pointed out, is rough on your GPA. 

2. It's great that you are identifying ways to improve. Wherever you are, keep doing that. But next time, do it as soon as you notice something going not quite right. You may have to change your study strategies a few times during a course, and adopt different methods between courses. Get help from your prof from the start of the semester if you think something is challenging. Don't wait until the end of the course and hope to pull it up with the final. 

3. The course you got 51 on -- was that a required course in your program in life sci? Did you know it was going to be a killer? In your second year course selection, will you have to take a similar course? 

4. You are in your first year. Med schools are somewhat forgiving esp first years mishaps. Provided that you learn from it and kill it in the next 3, and you take a full course load that corresponds to your year of study, I don't think med school is out of the question. Whether you want to switch into another school is up to you -- just make sure whatever that led to the 51 doesn't happen again. 

[sadhopeful]

1 hour ago, sangria said:

1. My opinion is, for you, switching schools and doing the MSc are kind of similar. For some people, that might work. For you, switching schools may work to change the 81 to an 85, but there will be less of an effect on the 51 --> you can dig yourself out of a B+, but that 51, as you pointed out, is rough on your GPA. 

2. It's great that you are identifying ways to improve. Wherever you are, keep doing that. But next time, do it as soon as you notice something going not quite right. You may have to change your study strategies a few times during a course, and adopt different methods between courses. Get help from your prof from the start of the semester if you think something is challenging. Don't wait until the end of the course and hope to pull it up with the final. 

3. The course you got 51 on -- was that a required course in your program in life sci? Did you know it was going to be a killer? In your second year course selection, will you have to take a similar course? 

4. You are in your first year. Med schools are somewhat forgiving esp first years mishaps. Provided that you learn from it and kill it in the next 3, and you take a full course load that corresponds to your year of study, I don't think med school is out of the question. Whether you want to switch into another school is up to you -- just make sure whatever that led to the 51 doesn't happen again. 

No ironically it was an elective. So I've definitely learned to just stick to my interests 

[plastics91]

23 hours ago, sadhopeful said:

I got an 81 in one subject, 80 in another, a 76 in another and it was one course that kind of messed up everything (i know my other marks aren't impressive but this one made me lose sleep) I got a 51 right on the dot. (These all count as half credits-) I am trying to improve my study habits but now I am conflicted because some people are telling me to transfer while others aren't, I do think I actually put time to study to be honest, I discovered some useful tools I find that I waste a lot of time writing notes instead of studying so I fixed that, hopefully I do better this semester? Honestly I don't even know anymore, would a masters be a good idea? Because that is what I am leaning towards.

All these comments from other members are really helpful. Of course it's not 100% school, there are in fact people who do undergrad at UofT and get into med school straight out. But they are.... of totally different breed than other people who made it into med school from other schools imo.

If you got 51 in a course, I do think there is work you need to do even if you were to transfer to an easier program. However, I'd still highly recommend you switch out as soon as possible to start that process right. Most UofT life sci people will tell you (and honestly I can't stress how only ppl who actually did the program CAN tell you how brutal it is) to do this. Masters don't help in any way. It won't make up for poor GPA bc without it, med school acceptance for any Ontario resident is... highly unlikely. I'm in a highly competitive masters program and there is very little UofT undergrads here because.. well, their GPA is too low, even for masters programs. It kills me because I know so many of my friends who are super bright and super keen who won't even get a shot even for a masters program because of the undergrad they've chosen.

If you are super keen on staying at UofT for whatever reason (no reason imo is good enough if you want to do medicine), take easy majors or even the minimal requirement to get a bachelors (major and minor? I think) like in human bio, cell systems bio, or just.. bio. Take all the "bird" courses you can (of course, I say "bird" because no such course actually exists at UofT), rewrite every single word that the lecturer utters from his/her mouth on the slide, and memorize every single point, down to where on the slides you saw that information, and every single number. That is the way you will get 90+ in UofT lifesci courses. I didn't do poorly, I performed fine (>3.8) for all years except one where I lost control of myself. But was still enough to knock me out of the running for 4 years, and took 99th percentile in the MCAT with 130 in CARS to get me back. Don't do this to yourself.

This is your first year and I think you have a lot of work to do to improve yourself but it's possible! Do yourself a favour and just switch out.. Don't even look back, you won't regret it.

[plastics91]

14 hours ago, goleafsgochris said:

I think a problem is when you choose universities, its hard to understand just how difficult a difficult program to me.  I remember cruising to 90s in grade 12, and at some point a family friend warned me that at U of T Life Sci, its much harder and everyone in the class wants to get into med school.  Grade 12 me just brushed it off--I had never been challenged or had issues getting 90s, why would I in university?  I truly think if I had been less cocky I may have had a good university experience at Queens/Western, and likely still would have done med school.  And I also may have been less bitter about the whole thing.

The good thing for egg.mcmuffin is if you have an interview, you've likely undone the damage to a large extent; and once you get into med school it doesn't really matter (aside from the added wasted years)

I was the same case. I had high 90s average coming out of high school. I thought I was good at chem bc I got 96% and was recommended to compete in a national competition. 

Come first orgo chem mid term at UofT life sci first year... bam.... 59%..... hahahhaha....

I was and am very humbled. Going there for undergrad destroyed my self-esteem but it did make me humble and I appreciate the bitter life lesson. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy however.

I hope everything works out for you. I like to believe that there is somewhere on earth for us UofT undergrads who've been through so much. Beyond therapy that is