research with a bad gpa first degree

[infinity101]

i am currenty a second undergraduate student, and i had a pretty bad and hard first undergrad experience. However, this is my second degree's first year, so technically sixth year of undergraduate studies (i took 5 years for my first undergrad degree given that i took a semester off because of depression  )-so as you can see not the most ideal medical student hopeful. 

my first sem of second undergrad was a 3.48. And I am hoping to bring my GPA to a 3.75 by the end of this year by grinding through this semester. However, after taking a seminar course on membrane physiology, which is a completely research based course, I was deeply interestd in the heart, and realized that i would really love to learn a lot more. I also did a seminar on it and I really love it. I was never able to see and understand research from such a perspective before, although I volunteered AND worked at some labs simply helping masters or phd students, (who are not the most passionate about teaching undergrads anything). So i applied to a professor. The thing is that he said he would like to see my CV and transcripts. I was expecting that he would just be interested in seeing my CV, not my transcripts.

I would really like this position, and I am not sure that after seeing my transcripts, which would include my first undergrad degree marks, he would be willing to let me in. 

Should i only send my first sem of second undergrad transcripts? Should I tell him I am doing a second undergrad (I did not mention that in my email, i simply said that i am an undergraduate student interested in med and cardiac research)? I did my first undergrad in bio, and am doing my second one in psychology. However, for some strange reason, I really wanted to take some fourth year research based courses in bio, and did just that. So my first year second undergraduate courses are only psychology, but my second semester has 2 science courses. 

 

I have a very hard situation.  

Some advice would be really appreciated. 

[Eudaimonia]

Professors will always be curious to take a look at your transcripts; you are in an academic setting. How they'll assess what's on it is up to them; there are no rules. What I did for my first research position is have a relevant courses section on my CV to draw attention to the courses I wanted. I also had a cover letter which you could include in your email to better express your motivation. 

If he thinks you're in first year, well I know very few first years who secured research positions. Professors know there is useful background knowledge taught in more senior courses and don't want to divulge time teaching that instead of cultivating a research mindset. Having a background in bio might help you in the topic that you're doing research in. He could be put off by your marks in that degree, or appreciate that you have the background. Some profs glance at GPA as the dominating factor while others know there are other qualities in students that can make them good for research. I'd say don't hide anything and see how it goes. 

[infinity101]

do you think that it would make sense to give an explanation, or just straight attach it? also, should i just send my cv and not transcripts, and see if he reminds me? 

I just really dont want to lose the possibility and have the prof reply back saying no. 

[frenchpress]

46 minutes ago, infinity101 said:

do you think that it would make sense to give an explanation, or just straight attach it? also, should i just send my cv and not transcripts, and see if he reminds me? 

I just really dont want to lose the possibility and have the prof reply back saying no. 

Do not to lie to a potential supervisor, even by omission. I say this as someone who has been a supervisor. He’s not likely to forget he asked you for the transcript. But even if he did, if you get a position under false pretences of any kind, it will be hard to keep it up in the future forever — you likely won’t be able to ask this professor for references or advice about your career or help with anything meaningful if you’re trying to hide your GPA or the fact that you have a previous degree from them. You’ll get way more out of a relationship with a supervisor by being honest with them.

Send the transcripts and the CV. You probably don’t need a cover letter — but you could send a brief couple of sentences explains that you did complete a previous degree in biology and you’ve come back to do a second degree. Rather than explaining your bad grades, you could focus on briefly explaining what you’re trying to get out of this second degree and why you’re interested in working with this professor in one or two sentences. If he’s worried about your grades, he’ll probably ask you about them. It is possible that your grades will be a flag for him, but there’s not really a way to get around it.

I know you’re excited about this position. But if this position doesn’t work out, there will be other opportunities. Take classes in areas you’re interested in and try to do well in them and get to know the professors. Profs are often much more willing to work with students who come to office hours and demonstrate an interest in their courses / do well with the material — not every prof will take a chance on a student with a poor GPA from a previous degree, but many will, especially when you can show improvement and enthusiasm. 

[infinity101]

13 hours ago, frenchpress said:

Do not to lie to a potential supervisor, even by omission. I say this as someone who has been a supervisor. He’s not likely to forget he asked you for the transcript. But even if he did, if you get a position under false pretences of any kind, it will be hard to keep it up in the future forever — you likely won’t be able to ask this professor for references or advice about your career or help with anything meaningful if you’re trying to hide your GPA or the fact that you have a previous degree from them. You’ll get way more out of a relationship with a supervisor by being honest with them.

Send the transcripts and the CV. You probably don’t need a cover letter — but you could send a brief couple of sentences explains that you did complete a previous degree in biology and you’ve come back to do a second degree. Rather than explaining your bad grades, you could focus on briefly explaining what you’re trying to get out of this second degree and why you’re interested in working with this professor in one or two sentences. If he’s worried about your grades, he’ll probably ask you about them. It is possible that your grades will be a flag for him, but there’s not really a way to get around it.

I know you’re excited about this position. But if this position doesn’t work out, there will be other opportunities. Take classes in areas you’re interested in and try to do well in them and get to know the professors. Profs are often much more willing to work with students who come to office hours and demonstrate an interest in their courses / do well with the material — not every prof will take a chance on a student with a poor GPA from a previous degree, but many will, especially when you can show improvement and enthusiasm. 

yeah , i emailed the prof with my CV and my transcripts, and wrote a few sentences about what i hope to achieve through my second degree and research involvement, gave a sentence about the bad marks. However, he hasn't gotten back to me yet. So, I think it is probably a no.  

 

 

[frenchpress]

43 minutes ago, infinity101 said:

yeah , i emailed the prof with my CV and my transcripts, and wrote a few sentences about what i hope to achieve through my second degree and research involvement, gave a sentence about the bad marks. However, he hasn't gotten back to me yet. So, I think it is probably a no.  

 

 

How long has it been since you emailed?

[infinity101]

24 hours 

[frenchpress]

1 hour ago, infinity101 said:

24 hours 

That’s not much turn around time for many profs, especially if they’re busy with end of term stuff. My personal rule of thumb in academia was always to give people about a week to respond to non-urgent mail.

If you don’t get a response within a week, I think its very reasonable to send a quick follow up inquiry (if you want to) to check that he received your message and ask if he’s had a chance to give it any consideration. He may still turn you down and just take forever to do it. But I wouldn’t worry solely based on the lack of a quick response — too soon to tell.

 

[infinity101]

9 hours ago, frenchpress said:

That’s not much turn around time for many profs, especially if they’re busy with end of term stuff. My personal rule of thumb in academia was always to give people about a week to respond to non-urgent mail.

If you don’t get a response within a week, I think its very reasonable to send a quick follow up inquiry (if you want to) to check that he received your message and ask if he’s had a chance to give it any consideration. He may still turn you down and just take forever to do it. But I wouldn’t worry solely based on the lack of a quick response — too soon to tell.

 

I know that some people kinda approach the prof's office hours to discuss their interest in research. Although the prof i applied to only teaches medical students, should I try and attempt to do it? Or should i just be patient and wait?

 

Also, given that this prof may turn me down, do you think it would make sense to approach the profs offcie hours directly, for other profs? And some who do research in addition to being doctors have administrators, should i approach them instead of simply emaling? This would indciate a stronger interest from my part, right?

 

Sorry for the list of questions... and thanks for the help

[frenchpress]

5 hours ago, infinity101 said:

I know that some people kinda approach the prof's office hours to discuss their interest in research. Although the prof i applied to only teaches medical students, should I try and attempt to do it? Or should i just be patient and wait?

 

Also, given that this prof may turn me down, do you think it would make sense to approach the profs offcie hours directly, for other profs? And some who do research in addition to being doctors have administrators, should i approach them instead of simply emaling? This would indciate a stronger interest from my part, right?

 

Sorry for the list of questions... and thanks for the help

Office hours are generally for students in a course that instructor is teaching. So if you’re in their course, it’s often a good time to talk to a prof, especially if it’s not busy (I.e. don’t show up the week before the exam and expect to have time to ask about non-course related things). But if you’re not in their course, that may not be a good time to show up.

I think email is the best way to get in touch with a professor that you’re not already taking a class with. It depends on the prof, but I personally found it frustrating when students I didn’t know just showed up at my office, as it could be very disruptive to my day. And I think most of my collegues felt similarly. If you want to talk in person, it’s most polite to request an appointment when it will be convenient for them.

[infinity101]

On 3/23/2018 at 4:18 PM, frenchpress said:

Office hours are generally for students in a course that instructor is teaching. So if you’re in their course, it’s often a good time to talk to a prof, especially if it’s not busy (I.e. don’t show up the week before the exam and expect to have time to ask about non-course related things). But if you’re not in their course, that may not be a good time to show up.

I think email is the best way to get in touch with a professor that you’re not already taking a class with. It depends on the prof, but I personally found it frustrating when students I didn’t know just showed up at my office, as it could be very disruptive to my day. And I think most of my collegues felt similarly. If you want to talk in person, it’s most polite to request an appointment when it will be convenient for them.

Hi

I am not in the prof's course, he only teaches masters students and PhD type research, and hence I will not be able to talk to him for course based material at all. What I meant was that should I drop over to his office and see if he is available and if so discuss my interest? Like you mentioned, if he is not available, then I can ask to book another time? He hasn't gotten back yet, and it has been 5 days. I emailed Thursday. I also sent a follow up email. SO, I am not sure if he is busy and hasn't gotten around to checking his emails, or he is not replying. I mean, he could've just emailed and said a no. 

Because he hasn't replied, i am debating going and seeing him? His lab is at the hospital, so I would have to go out of my way to meet him. 

If you had a student who showed similar interest: sent an email, followed up with another email, and potentially showed up to the office given that it is completely out of the way ( I have to take a different bus altogether, it is the east part of the city), how would you feel about the student's desire to improve and do something significant despite a bad past ? 

 

[Snowmen]

For your own benefit, I would seek another preceptor who appears to be a little more "available" if I were you. If he's that hard to reach now, there's a good chance that he'll continue to be in the future even if you are working with him.

[frenchpress]

50 minutes ago, Snowmen said:

For your own benefit, I would seek another preceptor who appears to be a little more "available" if I were you. If he's that hard to reach now, there's a good chance that he'll continue to be in the future even if you are working with him.

I second this. If this preceptor is just not responsive to your emails or requests, then he may not be a good fit even if he does eventually get back to you. 

1 hour ago, infinity101 said:

Hi

I am not in the prof's course, he only teaches masters students and PhD type research, and hence I will not be able to talk to him for course based material at all. What I meant was that should I drop over to his office and see if he is available and if so discuss my interest? Like you mentioned, if he is not available, then I can ask to book another time? He hasn't gotten back yet, and it has been 5 days. I emailed Thursday. I also sent a follow up email. SO, I am not sure if he is busy and hasn't gotten around to checking his emails, or he is not replying. I mean, he could've just emailed and said a no. 

Because he hasn't replied, i am debating going and seeing him? His lab is at the hospital, so I would have to go out of my way to meet him. 

If you had a student who showed similar interest: sent an email, followed up with another email, and potentially showed up to the office given that it is completely out of the way ( I have to take a different bus altogether, it is the east part of the city), how would you feel about the student's desire to improve and do something significant despite a bad past ? 

 

As I mentioned above, I think it's generally best to email first to contact someone you don't know well to set up an appointment, rather than just showing up at their office/lab.

I know that going to the effort to go all the way there can seem like you're showing initiative and enthusiasm. But I have had students who have shown a similar interest, and who did show up at my office out of the blue instead of waiting for a response -- generally, I felt like this demonstrated a lack of patience and / or a lack of insight into the priority of what the student was contacting me about relative to everything else that I had going on. It did not usually make a good impression on me. How someone interprets your suggested course of action will obviously depend on the person, and I am just one example of how a faculty member might interpret bussing across town to come see them unannounced. But I would recommend airing on the safe side and waiting for an appointment. And if they don't get back to you, start reaching out to other people who ARE interested in talking to you and who do get back to you.

[infinity101]

48 minutes ago, frenchpress said:

I second this. If this preceptor is just not responsive to your emails or requests, then he may not be a good fit even if he does eventually get back to you. 

As I mentioned above, I think it's generally best to email first to contact someone you don't know well to set up an appointment, rather than just showing up at their office/lab.

I know that going to the effort to go all the way there can seem like you're showing initiative and enthusiasm. But I have had students who have shown a similar interest, and who did show up at my office out of the blue instead of waiting for a response -- generally, I felt like this demonstrated a lack of patience and / or a lack of insight into the priority of what the student was contacting me about relative to everything else that I had going on. It did not usually make a good impression on me. How someone interprets your suggested course of action will obviously depend on the person, and I am just one example of how a faculty member might interpret bussing across town to come see them unannounced. But I would recommend airing on the safe side and waiting for an appointment. And if they don't get back to you, start reaching out to other people who ARE interested in talking to you and who do get back to you.

hmm, that is an interesting perspective from a supervisor's point of view, to think that a student might consider the prof/supervisor's work less important than his/her interest to join the lab--I don't think a student will ever think that. Can't it be possible that that student did consider you too busy to read and respond and consider and wanted to see you in person so that you get a chance to see the student and see what they are excited about? I am obviously only talking from my feelings right now...

Yes, I am a bit impatient, but it is because this is the season for apps to research positions. But I was thinking that it is possible that the email has fallen in some attention cracks? It is just that I am really passionate about this specific topic after doing a class research project on it. But I guess it is better to reach around for similar research topics of professors. 

[frenchpress]

49 minutes ago, infinity101 said:

hmm, that is an interesting perspective from a supervisor's point of view, to think that a student might consider the prof/supervisor's work less important than his/her interest to join the lab--I don't think a student will ever think that. Can't it be possible that that student did consider you too busy to read and respond and consider and wanted to see you in person so that you get a chance to see the student and see what they are excited about? I am obviously only talking from my feelings right now...

Certainly I would not think that a student was intentionally thinking that their work is more important. It was always clear to me that such actions came out of a place of genuine interest, and I could always sympathize with the students and the fact that they cared a lot about what they were doing.

If you recognize that a supervisor is too busy at that time to read and respond, and then is disregard that and just show up anyways, you're not really demonstrating that understanding or respect for their time / privacy -- you would be acting according to your feelings and what you want most in that moment, which is a very self-directed approach to the situation.

I made a lot of effort to talk to my students and meet with them, especially when they were excited about things. But sometimes I was busy, and I just couldn't for awhile. No amount of them coming to my office would change the fact that I didn't have time. And when they couldn't seem to understand that, it did not make a great impression. 

Sure, sometimes you need to hustle a bit to get what you want. But when I was a supervisor, I tended looked for students who could work independently, who were enjoyable to work with, and who were good team players. A big part of that included respecting other members of the team (myself included) and our time and other interests and priorities. If I had to choose between a student who hassled me according to their schedule vs. one who didn't, I would probably choose the one who was more easy going. Again, that's me and my preferences. I am sure the go-getter attitude is what some supervisors are probably are looking for.