anybody in Ireland...

[Guest gonzo23]

Hi,

 

I'm seriously considering applying to Irish med. schools this year (for 5 year degrees). I'm soliciting advice from anybody who is already in school there or knows about the processes.

 

1) how much does it cost

2) how do you finance the cost since I'm sure it's high

3) do you do residency in Ireland or apply for residency elsewhere (ie. the US)

4) how have you found the education there?

5) have you found it to be worth the trouble

 

I can't see myself doing anything other than medicine. My credentials except my MCAT score (28Q) are good. I am thinking that becoming an IMG might be my only way of becoming a physician, but I don't want to set myself up for something that I won't be able to complete until I'm 40 since it'll take me forever to be able to practice!

[Guest redshifteffect]

Gonzo,

 

I was looking into Ireland when I decided to go abroad so my info might be a little old:

 

1) I think most Irish schools are around the ball park of 30,000 -40,000 euros

 

2) If you are Canadian you can try Canada Student Loans, depending on your age and financial status you may not get that much. You can also try US banks and BMO in Canada, you will probably require a co-signor for this though

 

3) Getting residency in Ireland after graduation is very tough for foreign students. It's not impossible though. Though you can write the USMLEs and try for the US

 

4) Education there is among the best in the world...the Irish schools do not use Problem based learning which a lot of schools are adopting but this isn't really a big deal.

 

5) As an IMG there are no guarantees! Before picking any school I advise you to consider the following:

 

Where you want to end up after graduation

What are you choices if you don't get what you wanted?

Would you mind staying in your "host" country

[Guest bcapplicant]

I'm just starting to look into applying through Atlantic Bridge. Could anyone give me a general timeline for their application process. For example, app deadline, interview dates, acceptance notice...etc. Anything would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Guest extrachromasome]

1) how much does it cost

Tuition: 21,000 Euros

Rent: 400 Euros monthly (shared apartment)

Food, drinks, etc: More than in Canada!

2) how do you finance the cost since I'm sure it's high

Loans, of course. (Teri loans, through Atlantic Bridge)

3) do you do residency in Ireland or apply for residency elsewhere (ie. the US)

USA. Some have gotten spots in Canada 2nd round. Many Canadians do internships in Ireland though, as it pays well (50-60,000 Euros)

4) how have you found the education there?

Fine, same stuff as in North America, preclinically anyway.

5) have you found it to be worth the trouble

Yes, although I'd advise trying at least twice in Canada before coming.

Atlantic Bridge had an application deadline of the end of December I think. But they really don't stick to it, and don't usually mind if its late (typical to how Irish do things).

There aren't interviews accept for RCSI.

Acceptances start in March.

Any other questions welcome, it might take me a while to reply though.

[Guest moo]

Why don't you try the US? It's closer to home and your MCAT score isn't that bad. You can probably get into a lower tier MD school or a DO school. And afterward it's easier to get back to Canada than with an Irish degree. (Not to mention matching to a US residency would be much easier.) Not to mention it's only four years as opposed to five.

[Guest Drpanno]

Hi, I was thinking about applying to Ireland...acutally i'll post tommorrow on details regarding stats for North American students. In the mean time, can you guys and gals give me some advice on my situation below.

 

 

Firstly, I've wanted to be a doctor since 18; however, because my parents pushed me towards the field I sort of rebelled. Thus, I decided to double major in Econ and science. After a year, I quickly realized I hated econ and had a real passion for the study of disease, learning about treatments, and marvelled at how the body worked. Although I prmiarly liked bio I was fortunate to choose electicves that intrested me. Much of my elective course work was in arts courses such philosophy, english and pysch, ancient civilizations. Anyhow, to make a long story short, in my 3rd year I applied to medical school but I was rejected; however, I wasn't disapointed b/c I knew I didn't work har enough to get in. In fact, I was so scared of the MCAT that I decided not to take it. As a result, I only applied to schools that did not require MCAT's (I'm a Canadian and I applied to Canadian schools only). Thus, I spent the next two years of school busting my ass. I did not take a break and spent six semesters straight in school. The hardwork paid of as my GPA was a 3.80, 3.85 in my last two years. However during my last year I considered an alternative to med school. I became very interested in the ethics of science and the field of bioethics. For instance, I was very interested in the ethics of stem cell research. I guess, for the first time in my life my eyes opened as I began to consider many perspectives towards an issue. Anyhow, during my last year I contacted several law schools to explore if any oppourtunities existed between science and the law. My research showed me that many science undergrads go on to a succesful career in law in the fields of patent law, IP law, and health law. Thus, I was excited b/c I thought I'd have the opportunity to maintain my interets in science and use it for a useful purpose in law school.

 

Sorry for the story but I would really like the opinion of some of you MD/JD's....anyhow, I was accepted to several law schools; however, as the date to begin law school came closer I spent many sleepless night. I was very anxious about going, and I feared that I was making a horrible mistake. I don't know if it was fear of the uknown or something in my gut but I just didn't feel that going to law school was okay. The reason was b/c I still desired to become a doctor. Some of my friends who have gone on to foriegn medical school would tell storied about their clinical experinces and I just kept telling my self "I should be there. Wow that sounds so darn exciting".

 

Anyhow, I decided to defer my law school admission untill Sept 2004. I took this year off to study for the MCAT, and I already applied to the schools that don't require an MCAT.

 

Finally, I need your advice on the following. I've only really wanted to practice medicine in Canada. I have no desire to practice in the U.S. or anywhere else. Canada is my home, my friends, family, and potential mate all live here. As i'm sure you are all aware going the foriegn route to become a doctor is very tough. It's very tough to obtain a residency in the U.S. but much more difficult to get a residency in Canada. Infact, the general principle is for any student who studies medicine outside of Canada they have a very slim chance of practing in Canada.

 

I know I want to be a doctor but I don't think I'm willing to give up my home to practice medicine. Thus, would it be foolish to attend law school next year?

 

My rational is that maybe I should give law a shot. If I didn't like it I could always reapply to medical school, or consider the foreign route. I guess my problem I don't seem very passionate about law because I don't have alot of exposure in it.

 

For all of you JD students? Were you passionate about the law before u attended law school? What sorts of activites did u engage in to test your motivaton for law school? Is their anything that I can do to get a better feel for what lawyers with a science background do.

 

I've talked to patent lawyers but it's next to impossible to shadow one b/c of confidentiality. Would attending law school classes help?

 

Thanks....I hope I didn't offend anyone...just need some advice from people who are in 2 backgrounds that i'm interested in. To me it seems, that both medicine and law seem more that just a regular job

[Guest gonzo23]

Moo,

 

From what I've seen, DO school isn't respected very much! I have a 28Q, but a 7V. I don't think that'll cut it. I know there have been instances where people have gotten into the US, but I can't bank on that b/c of my verbal score.

 

I'm considering writing the MCAT one last time in august, but that'll mean my app. will go in late for US schools. I'd write in april but it's my graduating term, and I really don't think I can handle it with school (especially since I need to find some serious time to just sit and read to improve verbal).

 

I'm actually up in arms on what to do. I've applied to 7 schools (5 in canada and 2 in Ireland) this year. I guess we'lll see how it goes. I'm just so frustrated with the MCAT right now!!!

 

Is it really much much harder to get a US residency being a canadian Irish grad? My view is that if I write the USMLE as I would if I were in the US, I'd end up having to do just as well on it no matter what school I attended for med. school.

 

Eck!!!

 

Another reason I'd push Ireland is b/c I'd think I would get a better education from one of the good schools there than from a lower tier US school. Does anybody agree/disagree?

[Guest JaneUK]

Hi Drpanno,

 

Quite a dilemma....

 

I'm a Canadian first year med student at GKT Medical School, King's College, University of London....I moved to the UK a little over 2.5 years ago after finishing a music degree at University of Toronto. I was not really planning on attending medical school let alone moving to London...I accompanied my partner who is a corporate/securities lawyer.

 

I would suggest that you seriously consider what sort of work compliments your personality traits...and get the lowdown on what PRACTISING law is really like. Don't waste your time auditing law school courses....law school is NOTHING like private practice....basically, lawyers spend most of their days at a desk, in front of a computer screen, typing emails, drafting contracts, documents, letters and legal facta and speaking with clients or opposing counsel on the phone. Yes, there are practice areas involving science, but your day-to-day job will involve reading, phone, computer and drafting, drafting and more drafting. Patent lawyers....draft patent applications/legal opinions and, depending on their specialisation, litigate patent infringement cases....which involves drafting letters/statements of claim or defence, attending discoveries, appearing in court (if and when necessary...which is not often because most disputes settle out of court). Some litigation lawyers specialise in medical malpractice (defence side or plaintiff side) - again, lots of telephone, drafting letters, claims, dealing with court procedure, conducting case law research, etc.....

 

As you can see, this is vastly different from the practice of medicine, which can be, depending on your specialty, much more of a physical job with a significant amount of patient contact, where every day is different, etc.....think ER, surgery, whatever.

 

Further, what is more important to you....having a career that you love or living in Ontario?....Keep in mind that a career in law or medicine involves a serious day-to-day time commitment, so you better love what you do.

 

I love Canada, but really, it is NOT the be all and end all....there is a world outside of Waterloo (which is a beautiful part of Ontario...I lived in Cambridge when I was young and my mother-in-law is from Galt).

 

If you are thinking about Irish med schools, you should also consider UK schools. I did not take the MCAT. Guy's St. Thomas' Kings School of Medicine has a special foundation year for non-science students like myself. Including the foundation year, it is a six year programme. So far, I love it. I'm not sure if there are any other Canadians in upper years at GKT (I don't believe so) but there are 5 Canadians in the foundation year behind me.

 

There is no set path in life. Sometimes it is best to take a chance...I'm glad I did.

 

Good luck,

 

Jane

[Guest gonzo23]

I take it nobody has any thoughts on the comparison between Irish and US education for canadian students.

 

I thought my above post would bring out some opinions...

 

which is better? mediocre US school or good Irish school? how are students at a disadvantage in either case when the USMLE still has to be written?

 

cheers.

[Guest moo]

Quality-wise, it's a toss-up. But if your goal is to work in Canada, a mediocre US school will make life easier for you.

 

And besides, the "worst" US schools are, I would say, equivalent to the "worst" Canadian schools.

[Guest redshifteffect]

if your goal is to work in Canada I think that the best option would be to go to a US school. AT least you can get into CaRMS in the first round.

 

But keep in mind after living abroad for a period of time you may not have a desire to return to Canada. Also if you are able to get into a residency in your host country then your chances of coming back to Canada are much better.

[Guest j100]

HI,

 

I think I am going to have to disagree with Moo and Redshifteffect. I personally believe it would better to go to an Irish school than a mediocre US school. The Irish schools have a strong reputation for training good medical doctors and this goes back many years. There are many tiny US medical schools that people have never even heard of.

 

Also, although I am not an expert in the area, I don't think Redshifteffects comment about matching is true. If I am not mistaken I believe as a US graduate you match in second round. **Opps, see message later there are exceptions**

 

"if your goal is to work in Canada I think that the best option would be to go to a US school. AT least you can get into CaRMS in the first round."

 

I fully agree that it is difficult to come back to Canada after training in a foreign school and there are no guarantees. However, there is a little hope, and a small chance that you will find a residency - most likely in Family Medicine. Why do I say this? I have a friend who applied in Canada as an IMG in the last round and matched for a residency.

 

Cheers!

[Guest moo]

No, I believe as a US grad you WILL be eligible to match in the first round in most provinces (check CaRMS... most Faculties of Medicine have changed their websites to also reflect this fact). This is a new rule that just came into effect the last year or so. Thus if your stated goal is to come back to Canada, I believe that any accredited US school is good.

 

An Irish education may or may not be superior to an education at a mediocre US school. But the point remains that it will probably be easier to match in Canada as an AMG than an IMG.

[Guest j100]

Hi Moo,

 

I decided to dig around the CaRMs website. I think we both partly correct (including redshifteffect). :\ From what I read, only some provinces in Canada accept American grads, from only some US schools, and students must have written the Medical Council Exam.

 

Nevertheless, it was interesting to read, but it is still far from and open door policy. It would be interesting to know how many schools in the US would qualify, and which provinces in Canada would accept them.

 

Cheers!

 

Thought I would add in this link for people's interest

 

www.carms.ca/procedure/us_index.htm

[Guest moo]

That's true, but all US medical schools (except for osteopathic schools) are accredited by the LCME, which also accredits Canadian schools. Thus ALL graduates of MD granting schools in the US, whether Harvard or some @#%$ school, will be eligible in those provinces. There is no inequality.

[Guest Ian Wong]

One thing to bear in mind is that the USMLE board exams are NOT the great leveler that everyone makes them out to be. Particularly in the age of ERAS, where applications are electronically processed, it's extremely easy for programs to set cutoffs in each category of your application. ie. AOA vs non-AOA, top "X" students according to class rank, cutoffs for the USMLE's, and most importantly, cutoffs for whether you come from a US med school, a Canadian med school, or a foreign medical school (defined as anything that isn't LCME-accredited).

 

Therefore, a program may not even get to the point of looking at your top-notch USMLE scores because they've already rejected you on the basis of coming from a non-LCME school, particularly for very competitive specialties.

 

It's not fair (I'd suspect that Irish medical education is pretty darn first-rate, and certainly comparable if not better than the average US med school), but life isn't fair. If it was, we'd all be doctors in our home country doing the specialty we want in the city we want.

 

Ian

[Guest LestatZinnie]

I'm no expert in the subject of foreign medical schools but I'm suspecting that foreign graduates will have a VERY HARD time getting residencies in the years to come.

 

Why? It's because some medical schools, such as BC and Quebec, have dramatically increased their enrolments, but the number of residencies available has not increased proportionally. Just a few days ago older med students passed around a petition asking for increase in residencies because for the class of 2005 or 6, the matching ratio is 1:1, which is very tight- and the number will go negative if the situation persists due to increased number of graduates.

 

Bottom line is, future med grads in canada will face fierce competition amongst themselves to get into desired residency if the situation persists. Therefore, the situation doesn't look rosy for foreign med grads..imo of course.

[Guest redshifteffect]

Ian,

 

While you are correct in the assumption that FMGs/IMGs can be easily rejected. There have been very few ppl who have passed the boards that I have seen in the forums from foreign schools that haven't gotten a residency. The fact is if you're not picky in the location FP, IM, Peds are definitely achievable. Other residencies are possible but at the end of the day it's much easier to secure a job if the PD is more receptive of your degree.

 

There are over 4000 medical students simply from Ross university alone. I would think that there is a greater chance that a PD is a caribbean university then from a Canadian one. Also caribbean students do most of their training in the US which again would put them at an advantage over other grads.

 

So while what you say is true this "discrimination" could work against Canadian grads. I know you're gonna say that Canadian grads are above IMGs and all (LCME accred) but you have the same visa problems that other FMGs have, and so you will lose a lot of the top tier spots anyway. Over the last year speaking to some PDs and looking at the forums it really depends on the PD because ultimately they make the decision. The one thing for certain is that US grads are above us all.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Just as a quick response. Primary care is very achievable, simply because there are tons of spots. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to say that if you have a pulse and a legitimate medical degree that you can and will get a spot in a US primary care residency program. This is mainly because Medicare pays each hospital somewhere in the range of $100,000 per year per resident, so they have a great financial incentive to fill their residency quotas (in addition to benefitting from all the work-hours contributed by those residents).

I would think that there is a greater chance that a PD is a caribbean university then from a Canadian one.

That doesn't matter. The PD is usually only one of many people on the selection committee, and is therefore very well buffered from the selection process until the point of interviews. Your application can well be screened before the PD's eyes ever see your folder. None, or very few PD's are actively going to search for non-US grads over US grads, and I think you would be deluding yourself if you think that a PD would recruit from a Caribbean school over a local US school. That would be political suicide on so many levels.

 

That's why the presence of FMG's is often a cue to applicants that that particular residency program is not the most competitive one out there. Is that fair? No. Is that a stereotype? Yes. But it's also reality as well. You are more likely to see FMG's in Psychiatry than in Ophthalmology. You are more likely to see FMG's in community programs than academic programs. And you are more likely to see FMG's in less desirable cities than in places like San Francisco or Seattle. Simply because they are at a selective disadvantage when competing with US graduates.

Also caribbean students do most of their training in the US which again would put them at an advantage over other grads.

Definitely. If you want to match in the US, it can only help you to get US evaluations and US letters of reference. That's not the point. You could have the best letters of reference from the US, and everything else, but as an IMG, you will still be sweating bullets to try to match into something like Radiology, or ENT, or Ortho. It can be done, but the problem is that at the vast majority of US programs, your application is going to get sieved out and automatically rejected based on your FMG status. That's the thing with an electronic application process; it's really, really easy to weed people out, and that's what I was trying to get at in my previous post. Primary care residencies are far less likely to do that, because they don't necessarily get 100+ US medical graduate applicants for each one of their residency spots.

So while what you say is true this "discrimination" could work against Canadian grads. I know you're gonna say that Canadian grads are above IMGs and all (LCME accred) but you have the same visa problems that other FMGs have, and so you will lose a lot of the top tier spots anyway.

This is true. We do lose interviews because we are not US medical graduates. Still, each year, Canadian graduates match into the US for very competitive residencies, and Canadian residency graduates go down to the US for very competitive fellowships. LCME accreditation, plus the very close relationships between Canada and the US do go a long way.

 

One advantage of being from an LCME-accredited school is that we don't need ECFMG certification in order to obtain a J-1 visa. That shaves off a significant number of steps to getting that visa, and more importantly, the mandatory requirement to return to your home country is not a huge issue. Particularly if you are doing your US residency in a specialty that the Canadian Royal College recognizes, and will let you sit the Canadian board exams for. In which case, as soon as you finish your US residency on your J-1, you write your Canadian Royal College exams, and return to Canada to work. This way you don't waste those two years cooling your heels so that you can return to the US where you are employable again.

 

An H-1B is hard to get for anybody, and usually only happens for IMG's in programs that are really anxious to fill so they don't lose that $100,000 annual Medicare paycheck. The H-1B involves a lot of paperwork that the J-1 doesn't.

 

Anyway, it wasn't my intention to get into a better vs worse discussion on which country's medical schools give you the best shot at a US residency. All I am trying to say is that with computers processing your application, your application is at risk of getting a rejection because of one detail, despite an otherwise stellar application. Don't expect sky-high board scores to be a complete solution as an FMG, because at the end of the day, despite your strong medical education in Ireland/Australia/whereever, your interview spot may well go to a USMG with lower scores.

 

Like I said, this isn't necessarily fair, but that's life in the current US medical education climate.

 

Ian

[Guest moo]

I agree with Ian in that primary care spots are easily obtainable. We had a FP "residency fair" of sorts where the FP programs in and around the Chicago area and from far away as Wisconsin and Indiana showcased their programs. My friend who last year was very excited about FP went to the fair and left sorely disappointed because he felt he was selling himself short by basically applying to these programs that were filled with IMGs and/or DOs. Also their desperation seemed to suggest that a lot of these programs were not getting filled at all. Thus, getting into FP for instance is not difficult at all for an IMG... whether you're from Ross or some Irish or Australian school.

[Guest bridge]

Regarding moo's comment about the worst US schools being equivalent to the worst Canadian schools, I have heard from reliable sources (at ACMC) that when the schools from both countries are ranked together, the Canadian schools all appear in the top one-third. Even still, I was told that it is very difficult to receive a poor medical education anywhere in the US or Canada regardless of the ranking.

[Guest redshifteffect]

Ian,

 

I never said a USMG would not be picked over an FMG I said it is possible that a Canadian MG would not be picked over a USIMG. Regardless of what you say there are PDs out there that recruit FMGs. I'm not saying this is ethical but only that I've seen tonnes of articles out there that show that some programs are almost 100% FMG.

 

There is no doubt that an FMG will not be as competetive as a USMG or perhaps even a Canadian one in the top residency positions. But I'm sure you follow SDN so you know there are many Australian grads in Surgery and one that I know of in dermatology.

 

You have your mind set on ENT which is fine - Canada is the best choice for you. If someone really has their mind set on family medicine and thinks they can pass the USMLE I think being an IMG is a good option.

 

Are you also saying that a Canadian graduate would get picked over a USMG? I highly doubt that. Most programs have incentives to pick USMGs and the added hassle of filling out the H1B visa forms along with J1s make you very unattractive to US programs. Yes it's true some Canadians have landed into very competitive spots...but it's just as much an uphill battle for you as it is for an FMG except your slope is less. You still have to get steller scores on your USMLEs and have good LORs to edge out an American grad. It's not as if any PD would pick you over an American grad as you to are foreign. I mean in reality there are even American grads that can't get into these top spots...so even though the odds are in your favour of getting a Opthamology spot at Harvard at the end of the day even if you are the best Canadian grad do you really think you will get it? I doubt it considering that there may be an American grad there with less scores but he's American.

 

I got into a US accelerated medical education program (after highschool) which I couldn't afford to go to that's primarily why I ended up in Australia. But after being here for a number of years I can judge the differences in working between North America and Australia and in all truth I think I'd prefer working here. If I had listened to people like you that constantly try to discredit other pathways I would have stayed in the US racked up a massive amount of loan and probably ended up working in North America all the while living in ignorance about the rest of the world.

[Guest redshifteffect]

By the way you are required to obtain an ECFMG certificate for some states...even if you are a Canadian grad. I think Hawaii is one of them.

[Guest Ian Wong]

rse,

 

I think you're reading a bit too much into my replies. I'm not trying to criticize doing medical school abroad. All I'm saying is that your best chances of getting into a US residency are if you are a US medical graduate. If you can't be a US medical graduate, then coming from Canada is the next best thing, because Canadian schools are accredited by the LCME, which let US program directors know that the education in Canada met the same academic criteria as any MD school in the US. If you can't come from Canada, then coming from a well known international school like RCSI in Ireland or the corresponding schools in Australia (etc) is better than a more distant medical school in India or China.

 

This is not intended to be a slam on anyone's choice of medical schools, it's just a plain statement, and what I believe to be fact. If you know this and still decide to go abroad, more power to you. But, if you didn't know this, then having that knowledge allows you to make a more informed decision, which is what this website is all about. Just to reiterate my previous posting:

Anyway, it wasn't my intention to get into a better vs worse discussion on which country's medical schools give you the best shot at a US residency. All I am trying to say is that with computers processing your application, your application is at risk of getting a rejection because of one detail, despite an otherwise stellar application.

Regardless of what you say there are PDs out there that recruit FMGs.

With all the residency spots that go unfilled, I'm not surprised by this. However, I'd bet big money that this occurs almost exclusively in primary care specialties that routinely have unfilled spots; PD's look to fill those vacancies so they can collect reimbursements from Medicare and take advantage of the cheap labour. But there is no way, no how, that such a process would occur in a competitive residency (ie. Radiology, Ortho), because PD's cannot politically seek out FMG's when there are an abundance of qualified US medical graduates competing for those self-same spots.

If I had listened to people like you that constantly try to discredit other pathways I would have stayed in the US racked up a massive amount of loan and probably ended up working in North America all the while living in ignorance about the rest of the world.

I have a number of good friends doing medical education abroad, and each time I talk to them, I learn a lot. Similarly, I value your contributions to this forum because you bring an awesome perspective that most people want to hear about. I'm just giving you my viewpoint on the situation as someone who's seen and heard a lot about the US residency application process from a number of people I've worked with over the last four years.

 

Ian

[Guest redshifteffect]

Ian,

 

I appreciate your comments. I'm just saying that if people go the IMG route there are numerous benefits of doing so, one of which is staying in the potential country they are studying in.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that I doubt there is active recruiting for competitive specialities the fact is that even these programs go unfilled. Yes USMGs take preference over Canadian and IMGs (a point which I have tried to make...) but that doesn't mean that every program is filled only with these graduates. There are always a number of positions filled by IMGs every year. There is no doubt that these programs are difficult to get into as an IMG but not impossible. I believe you know Dr.Cuts? He matched into Radiology (his forth choice) there have been Canadians out there who have matched into Dermatology and other competitive specialities.

 

My point is that if you go to a location like Australia or England you can obtain competitive residencies there and still highly valued in the US. If your training is completed in these countries you can now even come into Ontario without writing any exams. I think that there are significant advantages to attending school in these countries.

 

www.cpso.on.ca/info_physi...factsh.htm