Why the US?

[CAS]

I appreciate the sentiment CAS, I think that its even sadder for those of us who are really qualified. I can't say anything regarding Schnauzr because he hasn't had his run yet with Canadian schools, but Retsage pretty much is living proof that this system is flawed. If you're out there buddy I feel for ya.

 

I bolded one word, because it is in fact the opposite that should be in its place. Coming from an LCME accredited school, your chances are VASTLY superior. You will meet very little resistance coming back to canada if you decide to finish residency in the US, and the US match rates are considerably better than IMGs. Check out some carms stats. Cept last years stats may throw you off - don't let them, it seems from SDN that the few students who applied to carms ranked super high choices and suicided for carms. Thats why all 7 unmatched never came back in the second iteration - they match in the US.

 

Before that, you have I believe a 14/16 match rate, with the 2 unmatched went on to match in the 2nd iteration in ortho surg. Compare this to IMGs which is closer to 50%. Canada is realizing that its getting desperate, and its stringent policies are not doing the country a favor. The first to benefit will be US grads, followed by IMGs.

 

One thing is certain and I'm glad you mentioned it. I always thought "I am going to keep trying in canada, I would never go to the carrib right after I get rejected 1 or 2 times because I won't give up"

 

It's not about giving up. Its about feeling unwanted. People have bled for their applications and even though they are completely qualified, end up with a generic rejection letter like everyone else.

 

 

KT - we all applied to the right schools, but

1) the right schools need to send us invites/acceptances

2) we need to get those merit scholarships (ie case) which are pretty tough!

 

Yet I agree with you that the financial thing is something to consider seriously. We all considered it we applied I am pretty sure, we just don WANT to pay that much if we don't have to in the end , which makes our Back-up a 'less-than-favorable' alternative than it could otherwise be if tuition was cheaper.

 

Hmmm, I only looked at last years matches so thanks for filling me in

 

I guess it just comes down to what you plan to do afterwards. I guess for some, the ability to come back is worth the extra debt. I guess I'm more jaded and flexible. I plan to dedicate myself heavily into MSF and have become quite disillusioned with Canada. I'll still try to come back, but if it doesn't work out, I think I'll still be happy because being a doctor is all that matters to me, not really where I neccessarily practice.

 

To each their own and I commend you for still wanting to come back. I'm not nearly as patriotic.

[CAS]

... and far more jaded

[Alastriss]

... and far more jaded

 

You said it. Its about personal choice. Heck im not patriotic at all, I'm not doing it for my country, but rather, what my country has for me (lifestyle, family, relationship, etc.)

[Retsage]

Yeah, if I go to the USA, I'm staying there. Nothing really draws me back. My family will probably follow me a few years down the line.

[Zuckman]

The US is a great country! I love the US! There's the diversity of New York and the great weather in California. The country has so much to offer and I would love to settle there if I was given the opportunity. Why come back to Canada? Maybe I'm just not patriotic enough. For me, Canada doesn't offer much. My family is here, and they don't plan to stay anyways. I just spoke to an ER doctor in Canada who plans to start a job in San Diego. Who can blame him? Better weather, better pay, beaches, prestigious positions.

 

As for MBBS or MD. They are equivalent degrees. If you come back to Canada, you'll be able to use the MD title. I've worked with British and South African doctors and many of them decide to use MD...while some of them prefer to use their MBBS (or MBChB). In Ireland, the degree is MB BS BAO. I actually love the look of these degrees. They look so 'traditional'

 

Note, the DO degree (for DO schools in the US) is NOT the same as the MD. They cannot use the MD.

 

As for Wayne State's tuition, I would only go for it if you have rich parents willing to pay for it. If not, then get ready for MANY stressful years to come. The joys of medical school will never even begin.

 

As for Australia, this is where I'm going to start in January. It's definitely a very viable route from my research. It's not nearly as expensive as Ireland. The training is supposed to be superb. There is the likely option of doing post-grad training in Australia as well. If you become board certified in Australia, it will be recognized in Canada for just about any specialty. This reciprocity in Canada exists for many other countries such as UK, South Africa, Ireland, New Zealand, etc. I've talked to many British and South African physicians and NONE of them had a problem getting their training recognized. They said it was SIMPLE!

 

Some people ask 'why do foreign doctors have such a hard time practicing in Canada? They're all driving taxis!' It's because if you have done all your training in countries such as India, Ukraine, Russia, etc, the training will not be recognized and one will have to find a residency spot in Canada to repeat the training. We all know how hard it is to match into Carms for those that graduate outside Canada and the US!

[Alastriss]

The US is a great country! I love the US! There's the diversity of New York and the great weather in California. The country has so much to offer and I would love to settle there if I was given the opportunity. Why come back to Canada? Maybe I'm just not patriotic enough. For me, Canada doesn't offer much. My family is here, and they don't plan to stay anyways. I just spoke to an ER doctor in Canada who plans to start a job in San Diego. Who can blame him? Better weather, better pay, beaches, prestigious positions.

 

As for MBBS or MD. They are equivalent degrees. If you come back to Canada, you'll be able to use the MD title. I've worked with British and South African doctors and many of them decide to use MD...while some of them prefer to use their MBBS (or MBChB). In Ireland, the degree is MB BS BAO. I actually love the look of these degrees. They look so 'traditional'

 

Note, the DO degree (for DO schools in the US) is NOT the same as the MD. They cannot use the MD.

 

As for Wayne State's tuition, I would only go for it if you have rich parents willing to pay for it. If not, then get ready for MANY stressful years to come. The joys of medical school will never even begin.

 

As for Australia, this is where I'm going to start in January. It's definitely a very viable route from my research. It's not nearly as expensive as Ireland. The training is supposed to be superb. There is the likely option of doing post-grad training in Australia as well. If you become board certified in Australia, it will be recognized in Canada for just about any specialty. This reciprocity in Canada exists for many other countries such as UK, South Africa, Ireland, New Zealand, etc. I've talked to many British and South African physicians and NONE of them had a problem getting their training recognized. They said it was SIMPLE!

 

Some people ask 'why do foreign doctors have such a hard time practicing in Canada? They're all driving taxis!' It's because if you have done all your training in countries such as India, Ukraine, Russia, etc, the training will not be recognized and one will have to find a residency spot in Canada to repeat the training. We all know how hard it is to match into Carms for those that graduate outside Canada and the US!

 

Yeah but the UK, aussie, and south africa especially have some strong programs too(I have heard great things about south africa). So that definitely is part of it. Commonwealth ftw.

[CAS]

The US is a great country! I love the US! There's the diversity of New York and the great weather in California. The country has so much to offer and I would love to settle there if I was given the opportunity. Why come back to Canada? Maybe I'm just not patriotic enough. For me, Canada doesn't offer much. My family is here, and they don't plan to stay anyways. I just spoke to an ER doctor in Canada who plans to start a job in San Diego. Who can blame him? Better weather, better pay, beaches, prestigious positions.

 

As for MBBS or MD. They are equivalent degrees. If you come back to Canada, you'll be able to use the MD title. I've worked with British and South African doctors and many of them decide to use MD...while some of them prefer to use their MBBS (or MBChB). In Ireland, the degree is MB BS BAO. I actually love the look of these degrees. They look so 'traditional'

 

Note, the DO degree (for DO schools in the US) is NOT the same as the MD. They cannot use the MD.

 

As for Wayne State's tuition, I would only go for it if you have rich parents willing to pay for it. If not, then get ready for MANY stressful years to come. The joys of medical school will never even begin.

 

As for Australia, this is where I'm going to start in January. It's definitely a very viable route from my research. It's not nearly as expensive as Ireland. The training is supposed to be superb. There is the likely option of doing post-grad training in Australia as well. If you become board certified in Australia, it will be recognized in Canada for just about any specialty. This reciprocity in Canada exists for many other countries such as UK, South Africa, Ireland, New Zealand, etc. I've talked to many British and South African physicians and NONE of them had a problem getting their training recognized. They said it was SIMPLE!

 

Some people ask 'why do foreign doctors have such a hard time practicing in Canada? They're all driving taxis!' It's because if you have done all your training in countries such as India, Ukraine, Russia, etc, the training will not be recognized and one will have to find a residency spot in Canada to repeat the training. We all know how hard it is to match into Carms for those that graduate outside Canada and the US!

 

sick! this is exactly my reasoning and it's good to hear the options are still open to return (not that I think i would... i'm very bitter towards canada right now, maybe it's the weather)

 

where are you going for school in Australia? ANU seems to be my top pick, followed closely by Monash and UoW. UQ is about bottom with the gigantic class sizes, but i'll still apply.

 

Can't seem to get much info on flinders though

[Zuckman]

I'm going to UQ. The class size is enormous and I prefer a smaller class. I don't think it'll be a problem though. The university has access to enormous facilities so I think the university can actually handle a very large class size. The real good thing is that UQ admits the largest number of Canadians so it's easy to feel at home. Also, you can't beat the location of UQ which is ~45 mins from the Gold Coast and ~45 mins from the Sunshine Coast. It's about 30 mins from the nearest beach because Brisbane is inland. UQ tends to do some things differently. For instance, there was some recent controversy in Australia since UQ dropped it's admissions interviews. UQ claims the interview shows absolutely no correlation with medical school success. Other Australian schools are expected to follow this too.

 

ANU is a new program from what I know. Great university from what I hear! Monash is a HUGE university with ~ 8 campuses around Melbourne and around the world. However, the medical school is at the Gippsland Campus and I've heard this is a rural area which is quite a distance from Melbourne.

 

Sydney Med has a tuition that is ~10K more per year, so I didn't even consider this school. Living costs in Sydney are very high as well.

 

I've heard great things about UofW as well. Flinders is probably the most competitive school to get into (probably tied with Melbourne). They have ~200 international applicants for ~15 spots. The average MCAT last year was ~32 for internationals and quite a high gpa average too. The interview is also very selective. Lots of scenario based problem solving at the interview. Very good school with good ties in the US. Flinders grads have been known to match into some great residencies in the US. However, Adelaide is not the nicest city to live for 4 years

[CAS]

I'm going to UQ. The class size is enormous and I prefer a smaller class. I don't think it'll be a problem though. The university has access to enormous facilities so I think the university can actually handle a very large class size. The real good thing is that UQ admits the largest number of Canadians so it's easy to feel at home. Also, you can't beat the location of UQ which is ~45 mins from the Gold Coast and ~45 mins from the Sunshine Coast. It's about 30 mins from the nearest beach because Brisbane is inland. UQ tends to do some things differently. For instance, there was some recent controversy in Australia since UQ dropped it's admissions interviews. UQ claims the interview shows absolutely no correlation with medical school success. Other Australian schools are expected to follow this too.

 

ANU is a new program from what I know. Great university from what I hear! Monash is a HUGE university with ~ 8 campuses around Melbourne and around the world. However, the medical school is at the Gippsland Campus and I've heard this is a rural area which is quite a distance from Melbourne.

 

Sydney Med has a tuition that is ~10K more per year, so I didn't even consider this school. Living costs in Sydney are very high as well.

 

I've heard great things about UofW as well. Flinders is probably the most competitive school to get into (probably tied with Melbourne). They have ~200 international applicants for ~15 spots. The average MCAT last year was ~32 for internationals and quite a high gpa average too. The interview is also very selective. Lots of scenario based problem solving at the interview. Very good school with good ties in the US. Flinders grads have been known to match into some great residencies in the US. However, Adelaide is not the nicest city to live for 4 years

 

wow, thanks for the post!

well, i'll be applying with a 3.6 (aussie conversion sure is nice - it's basically queen's amcas) and a balanced 31P. I think I have a really good shot at UQ and UoW, but Monash and ANU will be tough ones to crack. Flinders would be a bonus. USyd is too expensive (40K Cdn + ~25K expenses per year).

 

Regardless, the locales, the cheaper tuition, the awesome facilities (they have incredibly modern teaching facilities at some of these schools) and the opportunity to get away from this god-forsaken weather is a lot to pass up. I think I may be joining you (knock on wood and hope to god i get in) in australia.

 

mind keeping me updated on how you like it?

 

especially with regards to UQ, i may change how i'll be ordering my prefs.

[Alastriss]

zuckman, really informative post

 

and CAS I love your signature. If anyone here needs comic relief, go to the premed forum and read about the high school student who got caught trying to change answers on a test.

[Kam]

wow, thanks for the post!

well, i'll be applying with a 3.6 (aussie conversion sure is nice - it's basically queen's amcas)

 

sorry if this is a dumb question (and out of place) but what's this aussie conversion? I haven't found anything on a GPA conversion for australia anywhere:confused:

 

and yes that signature is HILARIOUS

[CAS]

sorry if this is a dumb question (and out of place) but what's this aussie conversion? I haven't found anything on a GPA conversion for australia anywhere:confused:

 

and yes that signature is HILARIOUS

 

http://gamsat.acer.edu.au/images/documents/GMAC_Admission_Guide_2009.pdf

 

page 17 - column A (the previous pages say to use the percentage column if percentages are provided and your uni gives 50%+ a pass).

 

haha, don't you love some of the things people say on the net? it's endless entertainment!

[Kam]

actually i've seen that table and it says in the international page (19):

 

GPA

Applicants whose Bachelor degrees are from universities

outside Australia will not be able to calculate a Grade Point

Average (GPA) using the conversion scales. It is however

essential that all international applicants submit official academic

transcripts with their application forms.

 

so i was under the impression the 7.0 scale doesnt apply to us, and that we had to use omsas

[CAS]

actually i've seen that table and it says in the international page (19):

 

GPA

Applicants whose Bachelor degrees are from universities

outside Australia will not be able to calculate a Grade Point

Average (GPA) using the conversion scales. It is however

essential that all international applicants submit official academic

transcripts with their application forms.

 

so i was under the impression the 7.0 scale doesnt apply to us, and that we had to use omsas

 

good point, didn't notice that!

i wonder if zuckman can maybe clarify this for us then?

 

i went to the aussie version of pm101 and checked there and found this thread

http://pagingdr.proboards61.com/index.cgi?board=discuss&action=display&thread=888

 

about halfway down, a person talks about how ANU just used the percentage grades for conversion. I'd imagine it would probably be similar across the board. If so, I'm sitting at a decent 6.6/7 or 39.8/42 weighted. Hopefully that makes me competitive.

 

edit: that was also back in may of 2007, so we'll see. I'll likely email these schools to see.

[Zuckman]

CAS, if you have a good MCAT you'll likely be competitive. I never applied to ANU but I emailed them my stats and they said I was very competitive. I have a 30 balanced MCAT. GPA is very strong but Australian schools don't tend to emphasize GPA like here in North America. GPA is too difficult to compare between different institutions so they'll likely place much more emphasis on the MCAT.

 

Flinders is one school that seems to pay attention to both though.

 

You should definitely apply to some Australian schools. If you get accepted but decide it's too much hassle to go study there, then you can simply deny your acceptance. I have a few friends that are kicking themselves for not applying.

 

The real good thing about Australia is the option to specialize. This is a likely option and makes it better than Ireland where you'll have to compete with the EU grads. It's going to get harder to stay in Australia in the future though, because there are so many new Australian medical schools and there will be lots of competition for internship and specialty spots.

 

One thing I admire about Australia is how they are solving their doctor shortage problem. They are opening up so many new medical schools...something Canada just doesn't do.

 

Even if I studied in Canada, I'm absolutely sure I'd move to the US. There are many great places to live down there. However, the US has no reciprocity with anywhere except Canada. There are some exceptions for grads from UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc..but it's the exception and not the rule. The US tries to treat everyone the same. So, Australian training won't likely be accepted in the US.

[CAS]

CAS, if you have a good MCAT you'll likely be competitive. I never applied to ANU but I emailed them my stats and they said I was very competitive. I have a 30 balanced MCAT. GPA is very strong but Australian schools don't tend to emphasize GPA like here in North America. GPA is too difficult to compare between different institutions so they'll likely place much more emphasis on the MCAT.

 

Flinders is one school that seems to pay attention to both though.

 

You should definitely apply to some Australian schools. If you get accepted but decide it's too much hassle to go study there, then you can simply deny your acceptance. I have a few friends that are kicking themselves for not applying.

 

The real good thing about Australia is the option to specialize. This is a likely option and makes it better than Ireland where you'll have to compete with the EU grads. It's going to get harder to stay in Australia in the future though, because there are so many new Australian medical schools and there will be lots of competition for internship and specialty spots.

 

One thing I admire about Australia is how they are solving their doctor shortage problem. They are opening up so many new medical schools...something Canada just doesn't do.

 

Even if I studied in Canada, I'm absolutely sure I'd move to the US. There are many great places to live down there. However, the US has no reciprocity with anywhere except Canada. There are some exceptions for grads from UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc..but it's the exception and not the rule. The US tries to treat everyone the same. So, Australian training won't likely be accepted in the US.

 

Awesome, well, I've got a balanced 31P, so hopefully that should make me competitive for some of those schools. I'm really enamored with ANU. I just love some of the research they're doing there and the small class size really appeals to me. I'm crossing my fingers on that one.

 

So, I've been reading heavily on the increased medical enrollment with a not-so-linear increase in residency/internship positions. If this is so, this means that some grads will not be able to get the internship they need in order to specialize. What happens then? Are you, to put it lightly, ****ed? After 4 years of hard work, you have nothing to show for it?

 

I'm guessing the internationals will be the first of the bunch to get the good screw-jie. So, what's gonna happen to them?

 

These people aren't stupid, so they must realize that this is going to be a problem. Is it a money making scheme? Do they actually hope to retain us as practicing doctors in Australia? That's what my main goal would be, but I don't want to close any doors on specializing (i'm aiming for GP right now, but you never know).

[Madz25]

uhhhhh, they're the same and equivalent degrees.

If you're pursuing meds for something as trivial as the title on your degree, I think you need to reconsider if meds is best for you.

 

uhhhh i know they are the same degrees. its just that i couldve gotten an MBBS right after high school. but since i did a 4 yr undergrad degree i wanted to stay in north america and get the MD. i put in a lot of hard work and effort in my undergrad and i felt that if i had gone abroad it would've been a 'waste' in the sense that i could've done an MBBS without doing an undergrad.

 

thats my reason for NOT wanting to go abroad, not my reason for going into medicine. jeez, take it easy.

 

why do people on this board question other people's motives for going into medicine? i know what my motives were. why don't you just worry about your own.

[CAS]

uhhhh i know they are the same degrees. its just that i couldve gotten an MBBS right after high school. but since i did a 4 yr undergrad degree i wanted to stay in north america and get the MD. i put in a lot of hard work and effort in my undergrad and i felt that if i had gone abroad it would've been a 'waste' in the sense that i could've done an MBBS without doing an undergrad.

 

thats my reason for NOT wanting to go abroad, not my reason for going into medicine. jeez, take it easy.

 

why do people on this board question other people's motives for going into medicine? i know what my motives were. why don't you just worry about your own.

 

yikes, no need to go off the bat there

 

didn't mean any harm by my comment, your post offered no context other than you didn't go abroad because you wanted an MD instead of an MBBS. It certainly gave the impression that this was your primary motivation.

 

Regardless, I was not questioning your ultimate motivations, I would imagine they are far deeper rooted than that. In the end though, my point was that the difference between an MD and an MBBS are mere semantics. Sure, you worked hard for your undergrad and could have gone in straight after high school, but that's a very small number that could have done that (98%+ avg). Secondly, I believe my post-grad degrees have given me a vision and perspective I would never have had otherwise. I'm glad I did a BSc and am finishing my MSc. The next degree I get (either an MD or MBBS) will not be for the name, but rather for the freedom it will give me.

 

Not choosing to do a degree based on a name... well, that's up to you I guess. I'm not sure I understand your logic, though. I guess you regard undergrad degrees as a mere means to an end. I regard that degree with far more brevity. To each their own.

[Zuckman]

The bottleneck right now in Australia is at the internship level. In the UK, the bottleneck is at the specialty entry time.

 

Getting an internship in Australia up until now has not been an issue for internationals. However, it will be an issue in certain states in the coming years. South Australia will be less affected than NSW for instance. I think everyone who wants an internship will get one somewhere in the country. It might be in a rural area though. However, keep in mind, many internationals will be returning to their home countries.

 

I have a British citizenship, so that opens the door to specialization in the UK as well. If you're going for primary care, it won't be too difficult to match into the US on a J1 visa as long as you get average USMLE scores. Getting a good residency in the US will be hard for any IMG though unless you ace the USMLE.

[Zuckman]

Australia does realize that they will be short of internship positions. However, Australia has a tendency to act in the last minute. They may increase the number of internship spots very quickly.

 

I think Australia does expect that some of the international students will stay in Australia to practice. This is definitely going to happen for some internationals. This is good for Australia too. They'll get physicians without having to pay for the training. They also expect many of the internationals to come back to North America. Generally, international students pay much higher tuition than the locals and this high tuition helps keep the local fees low.