Problem-based, self-directed learning...Is it worth it?

[Guest macdaddyeh]

Hi there:

 

This question is directed to those already in the program and who can provide some insight...(Mumfirst where are you?:rolleyes )

 

I am very interested in medicine and in particular at Mac, because of PBL, but my question is...How do I *really* know that learning style is for me.

 

I know some people and have heard of others who are frankly very scared of this type of learning as it exists in the Mac context. Correct me if I'm wrong, but PBL is not just part of the curriculum at Mac; it IS the curriculum. I can imagine that for some people who just don't have the energy or committment to be self-disciplined or self-regulated or self-starters would really find some serious difficulties.

 

Any thoughts?

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there macdaddyeh,

 

Obviously, I'm not in the program so can't make insider-ish comments, but as a thought, have you ever had to learn in any other environments that included case-based or problem-based learning? PBL could also incorporate less obvious activities such as being given a project, the tools for which you had to acquire on your own in order to complete the project. It may help to reflect upon those experiences if you have any.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest gucio93]

Personally, I love PBL. This is the learning style that suits my personality best as I am pretty much in control of what I learn and to what depth. However, I have also completed a graduate degree and was therefore exposed to self-directed learning for quite a bit of time prior to entering medical school, so I knew that I would indeed love this type of program. You are the best judge of whether or not PBL and self-directed learning are the right choice for you. I would caution you about one thing though ... do not choose Mac if you do not feel that the style will suit you ... if this is the case, you will struggle and you will be miserable. The learning environment is unstructured and you have to be comfortable with uncertainty, because nobody leads you by the hand, you have to take the initiative for everything. If you do take the initiative though, it is an amazing experience. Once again though, I would encourage you to really think things through, because there are some people in the program for whom Mac was perhaps not the first choice and what ends up happeing is that they whine about the lack of structure, the structure of examinations, etc...

[Guest macMDstudent]

Don't forget there are some lectures (small group sessions, large group sessions) every week in the preclinical units, as well as student presentations on various topics every Friday (clinical-pathological correlations) in units 2-4. So I wouldn't say it is completely unstructured. However, most of these lectures/presentations do focus on clinically relevant material so often without some basic science background it can be hard to make heads or tails out of it until AFTER you've finished the unit and you start to review your own PBL learning along with what was presented in the lecture sessions. So in that sense you can feel lost and overwhelmed at times, but the important thing to realize is that you are not alone in the class and that you have to keep slugging away at it, because everything in medicine is only learned through repetition, whether it is a PBL or didactic program.

 

I would also say that the curriculum is structured in the sense that the PBL problems we do in tutorial are usually the most common, most important conditions that you "should not miss" in your future career as an MD.

 

There are also serveral faculty members in areas such as anatomy and microbiololgy who will do teaching sesssions for students who request it. So if people are feeling lost, help is there if you recognize you need it and you ask!

[Guest McMastergirl]

Mac is more than just problem-based learning. It is also "figure out what you need to know" learning. I think the main difference between Mac style and a didactic style is the set curriculum in the latter. For example, my friends at Ottawa U are given the material that they are to be tested on. Let's say, chapters 1 through 12 of the textbook. At Mac, they don't give you that, and on top of that they don't test you FORMALLY. (by formally, I mean giving you marks that go on your transcript) Yes, this can be a good thing AND a bad thing.

[Guest IRNBRUD]

Hey macdaddy,

I am glad that you are asking yourself this question because it is incredibly relevant. Based on my experience (in the short month that I have been immersed in the crazy world of PBL) I can honestly say that you will be served well by your reflection.

I personally am really enjoying PBL. It is really interesting learning various concepts within the context of the tutorial problems. I am enjoying the freedom of being able to focus on my personal learning needs, and the satisfaction of sharing my knowledge (however limited )with the others in my group.

There are those in the program who are feeling resistant to and frustrated by PBL. I can't tell you how many times in the past few weeks that I heard people say "I wish THEY would just set up our schedules and give them to us" or ask the tutorial group leader "So what are we supposed to learn from this problem?". There is a lot of uncertainty and it can be overwhelming.

That being said, I am shocked at the number and variety of resources that are available to help students. It isn't as though you are chucked out of the boat without a life jacket. It seems that as long as you can identify what you need help with, there is someone to assist.

Hope your application is going well!

Really soggy, but with my head above water,

IB

[Guest Xine15]

Just thinking about your answer Macgirl, and I wondered.....

 

Let's say you have a really lazy student who has figured out the "system" at MAC and decided not to work as hard as he/she should since they know there are no actual marks in jeopardy. Is there some infrastructure in place to "catch" this person and kick them out of school?:eek

 

Just curious....

[Guest MDWannabe]

I know I'm not the one you asked, but I'll take a stab at this one:

 

The person you describe would be pretty hard to miss in a place where the most important learning portion of the programme consists of a 6 person tutorial and a tutor. If you are lazy, it will be noticed in your lack of useful participation. We may not be graded here in formal terms, but we are graded every day in terms of feedback from peers and facilitators. You don't want to let your friends down - and that drives you forward. Of course, it also helps that you want to not look like an idiot when you get to the clinical side of things.

 

I don't know anyone who has been specifically kicked out of the programme for such action, but I do know that some have been taken to task by their groups; and I'm told some have had to deal with the MD admin team in order to justify continuing on. That being said, my personal experience in the program has been wonderful and I have not come across anyone yet who fit the description you provided - so I guess the adcom has done for the most part a good job of selecting people who are internally driven, without grades

 

I hope this answers your question.

[Guest Xine15]

Thanks for the reply MDWannabe. You did answer my question.

 

I would hope that after the whole application/interview process, people who would do that sort of thing wouldn't make it that far.....but stranger things have happened!

 

[Guest jmh2005]

Well, unfortunately, it DOES happen, the exact situation that is described above by Xine15 but as far as I know has not resulted in the explusion from medical school. For the most part if this situation arises, things are dealt with when required by the programme as described by my friend MDWannabe. It also really does depend on the tutor(s), some tutors are a bit more vocal about such things, while others are a bit more laid back about the situation and let some things slide (for various reasons) which in my opinion is to the detriment of student (and later their patients!). I have heard of people taking an 'enrichment year' and even re-doing pre-clinical work, from previous years.

[Guest mumfirst]

Hey macdaddyeh!

 

Sorry I haven't responded sooner but things have been somewhat hectic around here! Anyway, your question is a good one and I guess that I would start out by saying that the worst things about Mac are the PBL and self-directed learning, BUT.... the best things about Mac are the PBL and self-directed learning!!! Fortunately (in my opinion), the bad things about PBL & SDL were pretty much over with after the first couple of weeks.

 

During the first weeks of Unit 1, most of us were running around saying "Why can't someone just tell us where to go and when?...and what exactly we are supposed to do???" Of course we were told who are preceptors are, and who our group members are. It was up to the groups and their tutors to set up schedules. Each group was given a mentor (2nd year student) and each student was given a 2nd year student buddy. These mentors and buddies were very helpful in guiding us through the first few "chaotic" weeks. The mentors even joined the tutorials to offer advice and provide feedback. Of course, we have only just finished our first 6 weeks but most of us seem to be into a routine now.

 

I absolutely love the PBL format. It allows us to get the "big picture" of a clinical situation and from that, we can delve into it as much (or as little) as we see fit. As a group, we decide what the issues of the presenting case are, what we feel that we want to investigate (by evaluating what we already know and what we need to know), and come up with a set of objectives. We then go away and research/learn the information in a manner that is completely individualized. Some students read textbooks, others find specialists (eg. pharmacist, oncologist etc.), some visit the anatomy lab, others search the internet...whatever works for each group member. That is the absolute beauty of self-directed learning - you can learn in any manner that suits your style of learning. Of course, that means you have to be self-motivated and self-disciplined. Without it, you would fall behind VERY, VERY quickly.

 

When you show up at your next tutorial, you have to be prepared to discuss what you have learned, and our group usually tries to tie back what we have learned to the patient in the "problem". Obviously, some people have more to say than others, but that is often due to differing personalities rather than someone not pulling their weight. At the end of EVERY tutorial, each member evaluates themself and the other members - the tutor is also involved in the evaluation.

 

I think your question about whether or not PBL/SDL is for you is a very good question - and one that everyone should feel comfortable about before coming to Mac. I think it would be very disheartening to be here and not be able to keep yourself on track - there is no one else going to do it for you - and no "formal" exams to force you to keep up.

 

Of course, even without the formalized program in place, there are checks and balances along the way. For one, we have the PPI which is a multiple choice test that every med student here writes and is an indicator of the progress you are making throughout your education - obviously, you are expected to do better and better on the tests as you move through your schooling. Also, I want to mention that while you are very much on your own to schedule your own tutorials, electives, etc., you are anything BUT "on your own" at Mac. The folks in the MD office are absolutely wonderful and they will bend over backwards to help you out if you need any help - the idea is that YOU need to be able to identify if/when you need help.

 

A couple of people in my group have said that they were a little bit hesitant about the Mac style before they started but now that they are here and entrenched in the program, they are absolutely loving it.

 

I could go on and on about the program - of course I love it - Mac was the only med program that I wanted to go to, and the only place where I applied. I feel very, very lucky to be here and it is everything I had hoped for ... AND MORE. If you think that you are self-disciplined enough to keep up to date (and can admit if/when you need some help), then I think you will love Mac.

 

Hope that answers your question....GOOD LUCK!!!

 

:rollin

[Guest McMastergirl]

I'm a little late on this one, and I agree with the answers given above in response to the question about a lazy person. I can say for sure that the work ethic among McMaster students varies widely. One of my elective supervisors told me that Mac students, in her opinion, are either very, very good or very, very ... not good. I don't entirely agree with that, but I believe there are people in the program that would have failed out of an exam-based evaluation system by now. On the other hand, if you are motivated and hard-working you can really excel! Like in any medical program you have to read, read, read and do, do, do!!!

And it's fun!

[troplondon14]

I am reviving an old thread! This thread is pretty interesting!

 

 

How does McMaster screen for people who are motivated and dedicated enough to do self-directed learning? (since they only look at your GPA, VR and CASPER score)

[w_robin]

I am reviving an old thread! This thread is pretty interesting!

 

 

How does McMaster screen for people who are motivated and dedicated enough to do self-directed learning? (since they only look at your GPA, VR and CASPER score)

 

CASPer and the MMI screen for various personal characteristics.