Questions for current med students - electives

[Guest sky100]

Hello.

As Kirsteen mentioned in the Ottawa forum:

"...Ottawa is one of the only schools to officially offer a large selection of electives for first and second year medical students. If you take a look at the catalogue, these electives span all sorts of specialties: a full range of internal medicine specialties (cardiology, etc.) through the gamut of surgical specialties...In addition, Ottawa protects two afternoons per week in the preclerkship calendar for students to pursue electives."

EJL also mentioned for Ottawa:

"We're not forced to do any electives (although I think they recommend that every student does at least two/year, but I'm not sure whether that's strictly enforced) but they definitely make the med school experience more interesting."

 

Does the same opportunity to do electives exist for U of T first and second year medical students? What is the attitude of U of T towards electives during the first two years? Is there any protected time for electives?

Any feedback as to electives during preclerkship at U of T would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

I asked these very questions during my UofT interview day. No, there is not specific, protected time for electives, nor are formal electives like those in the Ottawa electives catalogue, available at UofT. However, I was told that the UofT clinical faculty are more than willing to have medical students shadow them. It's simply up to the student to take the time and take initiative to do so.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest cheech10]

Actually, a course called CEM, Career Explorations in Medicine, was developed at the behest of the students to address this need. This includes a catalog of physicians willing to take on students for sessions. Although true protected time is not currently part of that program (which is just a pilot course this year) we do have one afternoon a week free in 2nd year that we are supposed to use for CEM, and one of the student's recommendations for next year was that protected time be blocked off for CEM. In addition, as Kirsteen said, you can contact any of the faculty for similar informal "electives" (I don't really like that term as true electives are done in clerkship; these are closer to observerships).

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

(I don't really like that term as true electives are done in clerkship; these are closer to observerships).

I know that UofT may be a little different with respect to second year clinical experiences which differ from third and fourth year electives. However, Ottawa uses the term "electives" since apparently during these sessions, students can and do participate in clinical procedures.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest strider2004]

Still, they should be called observerships. In Kingston, we also have observerships and even though you can do procedures (ie assist in the OR, do histories and physicals to be presented to the attending), you are not formally evaluated like an elective. Our ELECTIVES only occur during clerkship and we are graded by our supervisors. I went to Amsterdam for an elective exchange in the summer after 2nd year and even though I was acting as a clerk, in Kingston, it was still counted only as an observership because my clerkship hadn't started.

 

 

Every school has this and it doesn't mean that schools aside from Ottawa don't let you do as much. As a medical student, you are insured to do as much as anyone else, as long as you are comfortable with it. For Ottawa to say that they have pre-clerkship electives vs observerships - well, it's like saying that Calgary's clerks are student physicians(which is what the nametag says) vs Queen's senior medical students. It's just semantics.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Given the above, I agree. However, Ottawa, themselves, call these experiences "electives" and they include listings for each elective/observership/clinical experience, or whatever else they could be called, in their electives catalogue alongside the third and fourth year electives. Ottawa are the only school that I've seen that have chosen to do this, and I'm simply using the terminology that they've decided to adopt.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest strider2004]

Kirsteen,

 

It's nothing against you. I just don't agree with Ottawa's policy. It sounds like a whole of of spin-doctoring to me.

 

Alex

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hey there Alex,

 

No worries; I understand. I was a little wide-eyed when I first read the Ottawa electives catalogue, and asked a number of their current students and faculty about these activities when I was there.

 

It seems as though Ottawa students are given two slots of protected time to select and do these electives each week. Sure, it's not 9-5pm, five days per week of elective experience (akin to third and fourth year electives), but at least they seem to be formally in place for the choosing, with the time allocated in which to do them. A big, apparent difference between this program and others is that the electives are already designed and listed for the picking; thus, it seems to take a bit of the legwork out for students who would otherwise need to find the supervisors and arrange clinical time on their own. If all of this is true, then this initiative strikes me as being nothing but a great addition to a medical school curriculum. However, not having been within any medical school curriculum, perhaps there are factors of which I'm unaware, thus I'm being naive? :rolleyes

 

As to spin-doctoring, do you mean that Ottawa may be incorrectly advertising a set of activities that are present in other schools albeit with different names? ...or something else?

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest strider2004]

Yeah, I'm saying that Ottawa is trying to sell themselves by advertising something that is not unique to them. In terms of legwork, even schools like Mac and Dalhousie have great supervising programs. Heck, they even put it into the curriculum by forcing students to learn not in the classroom, but by asking attending physicians and self-study. This is a great way to learn more about different specialties and also lets you in the door to do work in whichever field you like. From my experience, it doesn't take much to learn about a different specialty (which I assume is the purpose of Ottawa's pre-clerkship electives). It takes a couple of days, really.

Other schools may not have special time allotted for electives, but they would have 'study time'. For example, in the first year at Queen's(Bock IIA), about 3 out of 5 afternoons are left vacant for 'self-study time'. This can be used for observerships, sailing, wall climbing or studying - whatever the students choose.

[Guest Ian Wong]

As to spin-doctoring, do you mean that Ottawa may be incorrectly advertising a set of activities that are present in other schools albeit with different names?

I would agree with Alex here. This is not an issue with Ottawa as much as it is an issue of poorly chosen/sloppy terminology. Electives really should be used to describe a cohesive, longitudinal period of work as a senior med student (and by that, I mean at the Med 3 or 4 level, or any point past the preclinical stage of medical school), where you are undertaking true clinical responsibility in patient care. These electives are the electives where you are truly evaluated for your suitability to be in a residency program, and where you will obtain the crucial letters of reference that you require for a successful match.

 

The same cannot be said of these shorter half-day events where you are seeing patients who aren't yours, and where you're not really responsible for them (ie. you're not on call for them, you're not coming in on the weekends to see them, you're not the one deciding if Mr. Jones also needs a liver function panel to go along with his complete blood count, it's not your name that's splashed all over the patient's chart, etc).

 

I guess I'd say that Ottawa is perhaps over-selling the advantages of these "electives", which are, in fact, simply observerships that most if not all other Canadian med schools also have. It is a case of semantics more than anything else, it's just that while most other schools call them observerships, Ottawa has called them electives (which sounds a lot cooler and more important; which is probably true seeing as your real electives as a Med 3/4 ARE truly important).

 

While Ottawa looks like they've formalized their program more than other schools (for which they are to be commended), you can get similar experiences at other med schools, so I wouldn't use that as a tiebreaker in a direct comparison. It's just fancier wording for the same product.

 

Ian

[Guest blinknoodle]

here's a similar question...

 

if you chose to do an observership at Toronto, when could you potentially fit this into your schedule?

 

thanks,

-blinknoodle

[Guest bj]

Hi guys,

 

It sounds like each school (Ottawa, in this case) tries to make themselves sound very different from the others. . .when really they're all pretty similar. Whether the school offers an "electives catalogue" or many, MANY opportunities for "observerships", they all offer the same experience.

 

I can say that pretty much every PBL tutor, lecturer, guest lecturer, clinical skills tutor, etc. that I have had this year has been more than open to allowing us first years tag along for a little while. In fact, a recent series of lectures by a "world-famous" (aren't they all?) neurosurgeon started by him giving us his secretary's number in case we wanted to watch him do a procedure. Cool, eh?

 

As for time, well that's all a matter of perspective. I know some people who have found time this year for a research elective or shadowing, and I know some (like myself) are saving those treats for our time off in the summer. We have a number of free afternoons (not many, but some) in the second semester of first year, and many more in second year.

 

That's my U of T perspective.

 

bj

[Guest UTMed07]

Dependent on the academy you end-up... you can also partake in a mentorship program. You choose a field... they match you up with someone in the field. You can meet-up with 'em, shadow 'em, ask 'em questions et cetera.

 

I have the impression most of the docs at U of T are happy to have a 1st year around. My theory is they enjoy WOWing us with (what for them is) basic every day stuff and feeding our hungry idealistic minds.

 

Mentorship program aside, as bj said, there are plenty of opportunities. One fellow in my class was going on rounds in the wee hours of the morning... another scrubbed into a liver transplant and was assisting a tiny bit.

[Guest sky100]

Thanks everyone for your feedback! I gained much insight as to observerships from your comments.

Cheers.