Guest Kirsteen Posted January 17, 2004 Report Share Posted January 17, 2004 Hi there TequilaFire, Don't take any offense at the emergence of the Western policy with no indication to classes like yours that are graduating this year, that an Honours degree will be a future requirement for medical school admission. It sounds as though the new policy hasn't yet been officially released by Western, therefore, it makes sense that it wouldn't yet be announced to high school guidance counselors, etc. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lcloh Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 the policy isn't officially passed yet. now i'm not the admiss reps like aneliz and timmymax are, but i know that in order for policies to be changed at this university there is a lot of work and double-checking it has to go through. so while it might be inevitable, keep in mind that the procedures for changing processes here at UWO (and indeed at another Canadian medical school) will take time. 2006 is likely an optimstic goal. i question whether it's realistic (although we have seen weirder things.) as for the panicking HS student who just submitted a non-honours program: once you're admitted to the university you applied to, i recommend you make an appointment with the academic counsellor for that faculty at the university. they'll be in touch with what you need to get into medical school and will be able to do program switches for you. you'll be fine. and to everyone coming from high school - even if you DID put down that you want an honours program, i still think it's a fantastic idea for you to see your academic counsellor anyway and let them know your MD ambitions. my C$ 0.02. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TequilaFire Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Sorry to sound so full of panic. I swear it seems as though everything wants to get in my way of becoming a doctor! Thank you for the advice all of the above replies, its done wonders for my nerves;) I'm high strung recently because of my blood/caffeine ratio due to exams. :rollin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 As has been noted before, you should have little to no difficulty moving into the Honours stream with some help from your university advisors. University is seriously flexible compared to high school; people switch and change their minds all the time, and the system is set up to cater to all these different plans. Also, this isn't directed at you per say (more to the general audience), but just remember that med school will always be there. Don't make it the focus of high school and university to the exclusion of everything else, because you might just miss out on something else that fits you even better. Even if medicine is a perfect fit for you, getting all wound up about it is only stress yourself out, as well as the people around you. It's okay to take 'er easy, while still working hard. Your blood pressure will thank you for it! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TimmyMax Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Hey, I agree with Ian- you are only young once and you are only an undergrad once. Have as much fun as possible, because if you don't, you will wish that you did back when you had the chance to. It's okay to take off the blinders every now and again- the medical schools aren't going anywhere, and they honestly won't care that you got 6.5/10 on some random quiz in some random undergrad course because you were out partying the night before rather than the 9/10 you could have gotten had you stayed in and studied all night. My advice is to just try to relax and have some fun every now and again- it's okay, trust me! Best of luck! Timmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest marbledust Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Ah this makes more sense to me now. Since I am a born and bred Western Canadian and only have knowledge of the university systems of Alberta and BC, I didn't realize the difference in honours degrees between here and Ontario. The things you can learn from this board are amazing Interestingly, some universities in Alberta have began offering 3 year degrees, when in the past BA/BSc degrees were exclusively 4 year programs, with honours programs taking a semester or year longer. I am not convinced that you need a full four year/honours degree to go onto graduate studies after a MD degree. It should be kept in mind that both Alberta schools do admit students with as little as two full years of undergrad coursework. I know of several MDs who have gone on to MSc or PhD degrees without having a BSc. It is both possible and doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Okay...I see this thread has really taken off since I last had a chance to log in here... First thing I want to say - Kirsteen is right about evidence based medicine...whether you like research or not, have any interest in doing it or not, research and the interpretation of it is a HUGE part of medicine and something that you CANNOT escape from...(patients come in waving the latest thing from the internet at you and you are going to need to know how to a) quickly find any primary references in legit journals on it and evaluate the evidence given for/against using "magic potion 6" on plantar warts or sunburns...) This is an essential skill for medicine...and one that cannot be much better taught any other way than making people do a rigourous fourth year of university... Having been there done that, believe me, you really mature both academically and personally in that year...because the expectations of a thesis and/or a heavy load of 400 level courses is so much different than the demands in third year...there is much more independence in fourth year and there are substantially higher expectations for independent thought and academic productivity...the faculty at UWO is very aware of this, and feels that students that have been through this 'growing' year will be much more prepared for the demands of 'evidence based medicine' and better docs as a result. Second thing - in response to the controversy about honours degrees vs non-honours programs etc... The idea is that ANY four year degree should suffice, honours designation or not; like it will be that 20 courses will be the definition of a four-year degree, but don't quote me on that just yet. I did quote you...because as far as I know, this is not correct at the moment...the new requirement will be for a FOUR YEAR HONOURS DEGREE...not any four year degree. (This is to prevent people from just taking four years to do a general degree that should have been done in three years and then calling it a four year degree). BUT (and this is a big but) the degree could be in ANYTHING. You could do an honours in music performance or an honours in philosophy etc...students in arts and social sci programs are pushed just as hard in fourth year as science students (as far as independent learning, thinking and writing)...history, English, Psych and philosophy almost all write a fourth year thesis that requires just as much research and critical appraisal as any science thesis...it is just in a different area. These are equally valid places to learn the skills for 'evidence based medicine'. Don't get too excited about this yet...I would wait and see what 'official' policy comes out because calling/e-mailing UWO isn't going to get you anywhere right now because: Third thing : as lcloh stated this is not yet OFFICIAL policy at UWO... it is in the process of going through approvals. It needs to be approved at multiple levels, from the admissions committee to the senate of the university...it has started on this journey of approval but I am not sure where it is right now or how long it will take it to make it to the end. It may be stopped (ie not approved) or changed at any level...if it reaches the end, it will still take about two years to take effect...because you need the lead time to alter the OMSAS documentation and to give people warning. UWO is not trying to screw you...as mentioned, this won't be effective until at least fall 2006 (for entry fall 2007...which makes it the class of 2011!!!!) and this is probably an optimistic goal...ALL of the current moderators (even those in first year) will have graduated by then. I am EXTREMELY surprised that admin let this out...because as far as I was aware, it was 'top secret' until it was official policy...(for obvious reasons - because it could still change at any time and letting out 'half baked' rules that are constantly changing only causes panic and confusion)...as for not telling the high school students about it yet, you can't make announcements about policy that isn't policy yet.... you will all have plenty of warning about what is coming....and there is so much flexibility in university that you can quite easily adapt your program early on or go back as Kirsteen did to do an 'upgrade' year...if you find yourself to be lacking in something necessary, but as Ian and Tim mentioned, med school shouldn't be your entire reason for living...or you are really going to miss out on a lot of fun and enjoyment in the next coulple of years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blinknoodle Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 the faculty at UWO is very aware of this, and feels that students that have been through this 'growing' year will be much more prepared for the demands of 'evidence based medicine' and better docs as a result. Hi Aneliz, I was wondering whether there was evidence of this. How many of the students at Western Meds came with 3- vs 4-years of undergrad? I know that Mac routinely posts this sort of information, but I can't seem to find it for Western. -blinknoodle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Hi blinknoodle...I know that they keep those stats...but I don't think that they post them anywhere. I will see what I can dig up, but no promises. I believe that this is probably also motivated by somewhat 'anecdotal evidence'...every class has some notably difficult personalities in it...and these people if checked, are almost universally of the breed known at UWO as a "three-year wonder"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 I'm not so sure about that one. We got some 4 and 5 year 'wonders' who are pretty difficult as well. And of course I know a LOT of 'three year wonders' who are great people. Actually, almost all of them are. That pretty much goes without saying. What have I found with a very limited number of "3 year wonders" is an attitude that they are inherently better because they got into medicine quicker than the Honours and Grad students. To be honest, I haven't even seen this attitude prevalent that much at UWO. . . almost every time I've seen it it's been on this message board by anonymous posters (and once again, it hasn't been expressed that often, mostly in one discussion a year back on grad students where one or two people applying out of third year tried to imply anyone with a grad degree in med school had to be someone who couldn't make it in earlier) This opinion is inherently ridiculous. . . how can someone look down their nose at someone who has accomplised more before getting into meds? I'm sorry, but the purpose of life is not a mad rush to see who can get their MD first, pay of their debts and buy a jag. There is absolutely NO evidence to say that Doogie Howser MD will be any better of a doctor than Abbey the nurse turned med student on ER, that his life will be happier, or that he will be rewarded a higher seat in Valhalla or Heaven or any garbage like that. I've seen a few people posting here panicking about not being able to get in after three years based on their situation. . . but is it really that big deal to earn the MD and the "Dr." at 25 rather than "26"? On the subject of how students at UWO in our classes are 3 year grads, it's a very solid proportion of the class. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd guess 1/4 to possible even 1/3 of the class. Actually, on getting here I was quite surprised by the number of people they let in who couldn't even get a real degree first (:b I'm joking with that comment of course! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest marbledust Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Sorry Aneliz I don't want to come across as picking on you, but I find your statement about "3 year wonders" a tad bit harsh. A blanket statement like that doesn't seem very fair. Just my opinion. I also question the validity of "a rigorous 4th year of university work" as necessary to become competent in evidence based medicine skills. I came into medicine with ten years of undergrad and graduate work under my belt, so it's not that I don't value the worth of education. It admit that it is a moot point for me as I will never be applying to an Ontario medical school, but I find this issue to be quite interesting. One question - are all four year degrees in Ontario "honours" degrees? Is there such thing as a four year BA or BSc (or whatever else) that isn't an honours degree, or is that just a three year degree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coastal79 Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Since in Western Canada we have to study for four years to get a degree (and take "harder" 400 level courses, as you mentioned) do you think UWO will require the honours sticker for students from the west? You made a comment earlier that "10/133 isn't many in the grand scheme of things", but I have trouble believing that everyone out here would be dismissed that cavalierly by all of those who are reconsidering the admissions criteria. Just looking for an opinion, I realize that you may not know 100%. BUT (and this is a big but) the degree could be in ANYTHING. You could do an honours in music performance or an honours in philosophy etc...students in arts and social sci programs are pushed just as hard in fourth year as science students (as far as independent learning, thinking and writing)...history, English, Psych and philosophy almost all write a fourth year thesis that requires just as much research and critical appraisal as any science thesis...it is just in a different area. These are equally valid places to learn the skills for 'evidence based medicine'. There is a huge difference, as far as I have seen, between the traditional sciences on one side, and the humanities/social sciences on the other. In the latter group, students are required to do extensive research and engage in critical appraisal all the time, it's not just those who do honours. A 10-20 page paper is standard for most courses at the 300 or 400 level, and it's not uncommon even in 1st or 2nd year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 I don't know about the Ontario situation not having done my Bachelor's here, but to give the east coast perspective, in Nova Scotia you could either do a 3 year major, a 4 year "Advanced Major" without an honours project, or a 4 year Honours degree. I'd speculate (and I need to reinforce this is completely speculation) that it would be the latter which would be required under the new system, and any 4 year degree without the honours designation would be seen the same as an east coast Advanced Major degree. Fact is, pretty much anyone with a shot at making the cutoffs probably has the marks to earn the honours degree. If this does go through, my guess is that the impact on UWO admissions will essentially be twofold: a) UWO will no longer accept students out of third year. This is really not that radical as other med schools in Canada already follow this policy (ie Dal pretty much never accepts 3rd year students) or scrutinize 3rd year students greater (ie U of T.) Anyone wanting to attend UWO's medical school would have to complete a 4th year honours thesis and may have to take a few extra courses in their area of major. Of course, as the definition of honours, advanced major, major and specialization does not seem to be uniform across this country, this will vary school to school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lcloh Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 lol. i'm a three-year wonder... and I like to think i'm not a horrible person all 'round. (although UWOMED2005 might disagree with me.... redbull and vodka, anyone? ) while I am happy getting in after three, i'm also incredibly respectful of those who did fourth year. I know i'd never have the patience for a research project! cheers L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 mmm. . . red bull and vodka. chock-full of taurine goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TimmyMax Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 Hey, In addition to being a good person, lcloh also has a wonderful singing voice! "This look like a job for me/ So everybody quick, just follow me/ 'cuz we need a little of the controversy/ 'cuz it feel so empty without me...keeeeeds!" :rollin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 007 Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 I think that for the most part in Ontario, 3 years gives you a general degree and with 4 years you have the opportunity to obtain an honours degree. Usually you need 19+ credits and a certain number of those to be in your area of concentration to get an honours degree. Any Ontarians please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 Okay...I do not have any information for any of you...why? because this has not yet become official policy...which means that the details of how it is going to work, if there will be any exceptions, how you get them, what they would be based on, etc, etc, etc, have NOT been determined...in fact, the whole concept could still be NOT APPROVED by any level of the UWO administration... Why it was released by UWO at this point...I don't know...I think that it may have been a bit of a 'screw up' in the office because, as far as I know, it was NOT supposed to be released until it had BEEN approved and it was going to be implemented...and by that point, all of these things that you are asking about would have been worked out. So, NOBODY knows the answers to the questions that you are asking...because it has not yet been determined. The statements I posted above about "rigourous 4th years" and "three year wonders" are NOT my opinions....nor do I believe that they apply universally...I was only trying to give you some of the prevailing opinions that I have heard floating through UWO (usually from various members of the faculty) that have more than likely inspired this attempted change. Again...it is still an "attempted" change...it is NOT policy yet...and it may never be policy....furthermore, to those of you already IN university, it is NOT going to effect you even if it does go through by the optimistic implementation date.... And this the last time I am going to comment on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Fair enough. I know how hard it is to try to be the representative/apologist for something that wasn't and isn't your own idea. Talk about a set-up for being the one stuck in the middle. Particularly when nothing official has been released; speculation is usually a bad idea. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Yes, such a bad idea. . . but so much fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest therealcrackers Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 There will be something forthcoming from official channels in the near future. At that time, it will be posted, methods of contact with the appropriate people will be linked, and this thread will then be locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lcloh Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Oh, Western. Honestly, if this thing is implemented by 2006, I'd be impressed. There are things that they said they'd do in my first year of UNDERGRAD at Western (i.e. 1999) that I have yet to still see Not that Western is a bad schooll, but policy changes always take time at any major institution. To not check and double check is just setting youself up for failure. But since we can't do anything about it, in the meantime, let's head out... we can speculate while we wait for the bartender (with a casual pose and 20 dollar bill in hand) to give us our red bulls and vodkas, eh UWOMED2005? why don't YOU ever come out for karaoke? TimmyMax kicks ass with his Oasis, geez. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TimmyMax Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Hey, I'd have to agree with Ian- speculation is a bad idea, especially when nothing is official as of yet, and although it may be fun to some people, this is undoubtedly how rumours get started. I know that during my undergrad, there was some clown going around spreading rumours about admissions grades and policies of the various schools that were just completely asinine and untrue. We are all lucky to have such a solid and reliable medical school resource in this board. Let's all work to keep it that way! Best of luck! Timmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest therealcrackers Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 This is from the UWO medicine admissions website. Click on http://www.fmd.uwo.ca/ume and look for the admissions link. Quote: ----------------------------------------------------------- Subject to Senate Approval. Will affect those applying in 2006 for entry in 2007 To be eligible to apply, students must have completed or be currently enrolled in a program leading to a four-year honours degree or equivalent from a recognized university and expect to have completed a minimum of 20 full or equivalent courses by the end of the academic year (September - April) in which application is being made. Only those terms in which at least five full or equivalent courses (30 credit hours) are taken will be used in the calculation of GPA admission cutoffs. Three full or equivalent senior courses (second year and above) must be included in at least one of the two undergraduate years being used to determine compliance with established GPA cutoffs. The minimum GPA must be met in EACH of the two undergraduate years. The second change is that we will no longer be asking for any prerequisites. however, we will state on our web site courses that we highly recommend you take. ---------------------------------------------------------- Read the second change at the very bottom carefully. Please note that this is still subject to academic policy review at UWO and therefore is subject to change, but that we will keep you informed if anything does happen. If you have any questions, you can also e-mail the admissions office or call them. However, since this is still subject to approval, you may want to wait for it to be formalized, but account for its likely becoming policy when you prepare your undergraduate programs. This will be the last word on this subject for now. I will lock this thread, and any other discussion threads about it before Friday, when the new cutoffs will be posted. We are merely the messengers. Good luck to everyone. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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