Guest shanna Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 For those of you who are providing your own tuition, how are you doing it? Private loans? Family help? Scholarships? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 My tuition is coming almost exclusively from OSAP and a line of credit from the Royal Bank....I got a small bursary from the school this year ($2000) but it doesn't make much of a difference! The money I had saved from summer is essentially gone now....so I am going to work for in a store for two weeks at Christmas to try and make some cash....so much for Christmas holidays.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 I moved this out of the Premed forum into the Med Students forum since this topic is near and dear to many med students. The vast majority of my class has student loans, and many have lines of credit as well. Luckily for us, tuition here at UBC has been very civil to us (I paid $4200 annually for the first three years), and only this year has our tuition freeze been lifted. For this year, my last at UBC med, I'm now paying $5600 for tuition. In a few years, our med tuition should approximate that of other "peer universities" in Canada. By this, our student body assumes that we are being compared to Toronto, which is probably the program that most approximates ours in many ways. I believe Toronto students this year are paying $15,000, and it looks like their fees for this upcoming year are $15,500, and up to $16,500 if you include ancillary fees. You can scroll down from the below link to see the cost breakdown. www.library.utoronto.ca/medicine/educational_programs/admissinfo.html#pro One of the big troubles with deregulated tuitions that increase annually is that government student loans (via sheer lag time and bureaucratic delays) and student financial aid (ie. bursaries, scholarships, student work opportunities) don't increase porportionally. This can be seen in Ontario (and my bet is that it will soon be happening here in UBC) and it results in med students maxing out on student loans, and then going back to the banks for an additional line of credit. The end result is a med school graduate who is big-time in debt such that there's no way it can be re-paid on a resident's salary, and once residency is done, another big loan needs to be taken out in order to buy the capital to start up a practice. The upshot then is that many medical students look at this future, and spurn some of the lesser-paying fields like Family Medicine, General Surgery, general Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, in favour of surgical subspecialties (like Plastics, Urology), internal medicine subspecialties (like GI, cardiology, etc), or simply look towards the US as a route to more financial success. Just talking with my classmates, it becomes clear that debt DOES drive one's decisions regarding choosing specialties. That's too bad, because it often leads med students away from the medical fields that are most in demand, and are most short of physicians. There's a lot of previous discussion regarding student debt in this forum, where a lot of this ground has already been covered. Ian UBC, Med 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 I'm also doing it entirely on OSAP and a Bank's line of Credit. It's doable, but sucks. Oh well, c'est la vie. Western projects a budget roughly $28,000 - $36,000 per year (depending on the year and things such as licensing exams, interview costs, etc) and that does NOT include interest. . . I'll probably owe $60,000 at the end of this year, and can't see myself owing any less than $100,000 (and more realistically the maximum of $125,000) once I graduate. It's such a stupid system. There's been a lot of talk of accessibility and the tuition affecting the demographics of the medical school class (UWO's average family income has climbed from around $80,000 to around $140,000 since the tuition hikes.) But I think the great impact is what it does to a med student's psyche. I did NOT go into medicine for the money. But as my Line of Credit statements keep arriving with escalating negative balances, I find myself thinking more and more about billing codes and the business side of medicine. Personally, I don't like the idea of cutting a patient off at 15 minutes, limiting a patient to one complaint, basically practicing medicine with an eye to the bottom line first. But with a $125,000 debt from school alone, I probably will be forced to practice that way for at least the first few years. And while as a second year student I might think to myself that I would practice that way only for a few years in order to pay off my debt, realistically getting into such habits in the first few years of practice is likely to influence the way I practice medicine for the rest of my career. I honestly think this system negatively impacts the development of us as physicians, and the government and medical schools is doing the Canadian Public a disservice by burdening its future doctors with this sort of debtload. Plus Ian's right - my guess is that our debtload will have a huge impact on specialty choices for my class. That will likely aggravate the shortage of practitioners in certain areas, creating another mess that will need to be sorted out in the future. Gotta love government shortsightedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest U of O med Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 I'd like to add my two cents here, but I'm affraid I might have to clear it with the Royal Bank!! We had an MD Management (CMA) talk a couple of weeks ago. They put the fear of the lord in most of us. They pointed out that the class of 2002, on average, are not really making enough money in residency to LIVE!! They have a monthly debt of something like $200. Anyway... I'm paying about $14 000 this year in tuition alone (not counting the extra $4000 I had to pay last year for a lap top computer!?!?!?). I am outraged at the fact that OSAP only allocates about $11 000 to us for a school year. If anything is to be done in the near future, I believe it has to be the adjustment of OSAP allowances for all programs that pay a crazy amount of tuition. A little anecdote! I was waiting in line at the financial aid office the other day, 'cause you know I have nothing better to do, and I overheard a Law student talking about how he had to revert to emergency loans in order to finish up his last year! GIVE ME A BREAK!! There, off my chest... I can get some sleep now!! We're done on the 13th, Happy Holidays to you all!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shanna Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 I think the Can govt helps subsidize med school right? I see MEGA differences in tuition between Can res and Int'l tuition rates. To you guys apparently these 20+k tuitions are astronomical but I'm ecstatic I plan on funding my tuition through various scholarships and loans that will amazingly cover it with no problem... but then what do I live off of and make my monthly payments on loans with in the interim? As far as I can read, as a non-resident I can't work in Canada, and my loan/scholarships/grants will not cover living expenses. How are you people doing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 We live off our lines of credit/student loans....we don't live extravagantly....many hunt down the cheapest apartment and food they can find.....you can pay the interest on your line of credit with your line of credit....(ie borrow more from your line of credit to pay the interest you owe on it....) Of course this is less than ideal and leads to exponential growth of your debt.... As a non-Canadian you will not be able to work in Canada....but not many (if any) of my classmates are working during the school year either....at UWO, we have class (in some form) most days from 8-4...I leave home at 7:30 each morning, sit in class until 4 and by the time you get out of class, check your e-mail, say hello to a classmate, go to an anatomy demonstration (which happens after class) and then get home, it is rare for me to be home again before 5 or 5:30.....(last night it was 6). Then you need to do fun things like make a meal, eat, do laundry, grocery shop etc, (all very fun without a car) and THEN you can start studying....because there is a lot of material covered in 7 hours of lecture each day....This leaves NO time for a part-time job in the evenings....I guess you could work on the weekends but I think that you would probably die in the process..... Another problem is that we have short summers....at UWO the first and second years aren't done for the summer until June, and with classes resuming in the first week of Sept, that doesn't leave a lot of summer to work in either....probably the most that you can realistically make in the summer is about $4000....which obviously doesn't put a big dent in the $15 000 tuition bill.....and this doesn't include books, living expenses, equipment etc....Once you are in third year, you get no summer at all and go straight through for 52 weeks. Our biggest annoyance is the fact that the Ontario government will only recognise $4000 of our tuition for the purposes of student loans....they don't care that we pay over three times this amount....hence, our maximum sudent loan is the same as all of the other undergrads (who are paying about $4000 tuition) and is capped at about $11000. This isn't even enough to cover our tuition, so, unless you are independently wealthy, (or can secure other scholarship money (like from the Canadian military), you need to have a line of credit too. There are not too many scholarships available....and those that are around are not usually anywhere close to providing full tuition money....Canadian universities don't have anywhere close to the number of scholarships available that US schools do.,....full tuition or close to it scholarships largely don't exist here. As an aside, the only Canadian med schools that I am aware of accepting international students (ie Non-Canadians) are McMaster and McGill.....I believe that both schools charge a ridiculous amount of tuition for international students (something like $30 000-40 000) because they use their international students as a source of income for the school. (International students don't pay the same tuition as Canadians.) The number of med school seats in Ontario is tightly regulated and dictated by the provincial government - because they fund them to a large degree....we were told by our dean that our tuition ($15 000) covers roughly 1/3 of the cost of our education each year. The government is picking up the rest. So, this is one reason that these seats are reserved for Canadian citizens and permanent residents. So there you have it. Money is a huge issue for Canadian med students, particularly in Ontario. Most of us will graduate with well over $100 000 worth of debt....and will have been paying interest on it throughout our med school careers because we can't get adequate student loans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted December 10, 2002 Report Share Posted December 10, 2002 Just a comment about international students -- they typically aren't charged extravagant tuition as a moneymaker for the school, they're charged that much because they COST that much to educate. The government doesn't subsidize them at all, unlike Canadians. This comment isn't about medical school spots in particular, it applies to pretty much every university program in Canada, from undergraduate, to business, law, medicine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shanna Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 how do you get a line of credit that you don't make payments on every month? I'm making student loan payments right now and I haven't graduated yet. I mean, if it's just insane to have a job while in med school, how do you make monthly payments, rent etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 We DO make loan repayments every month. How do we pay for it? Unfortunately, the only way we can make those payments is to borrow more money! No wonder the banks love us - I figure that by the time I can pay it back, the money I'm borrowing will have doubled with the added interest. And working to pay living expenses isn't realistic. I know of a very limited few people in my class who work. . . we're talking AT MOST a night or two a week. It sucks, but them's the breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest therealcrackers Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 Shanna, Creative financing kicks in. Most of the major banks have special packages for professional students, and med students get the deepest packages (BEST just doesn't seem like the right word for a mountain of debt). These are at prime rate or prime + 1, but they require only interest payments until you graduate. In my case, I use that to pay my tuition and rent, and use the OSAP loan that I got (again, interest-free until 6 months after I graduate, but this is money that is GIVEN you rather than just available as debt to draw on), and use that to make the monthly payments. Variation on robbing Peter to pay Paul, but at least it guarantees me Paul's vote in the next election... What I make in the summer doing research covers my expenses for those two and a half months quite nicely, but doesn't leave me a lot of reserve. And after this summer, clerkship will comprise the entire following 12 months, so I won't even have that to draw on. As an American, you have access to very deep pots of money from the US government for medical school, but I'm not sure about the payment structure. HOWEVER, as an American, you would not be eligible for OSAP, and since the Canadian government would not subsidize your education you end up paying the "full fare", likely C$30K (to pull a figure out of the air) for tuition. If this is something you are seriously considering, start looking at the financing issues sooner rather than later. And good luck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 International students are charged extravagant tuition because that is what it costs to educate them....BUT it is also a money maker for the school....because it increases the cash flow into the school....not sure exactly how this works but had this theory given to me by the Dean at the Ontario Veterinary College when they started taking a couple of international students at $39 000/yr tuition....(compared with just over $4000 for Ontario students).....this decision caused a lot of rage from Canadian OOP students....they are still not eligible to even apply to OVC....even though there are three international seats......the international seats exist ONLY because of the $$$$ attached to them....I assume that the reasons are similar at the med schools that offer international students spots....why else would they bother? McGill is running a similar system to OVC, 4 OOP seats vs 20 international....go figure.....only $$$$ could motivate that. Shanna- we do pay interest on our lines of credit every month....what we don't pay interest on is our government student loans (OSAP). The government pays the interest on these until 6 months after we graduate....then we get the fun of trying to pay them back on a resident's salary....I can hardly wait! We pay interest on the line of credit either from our OSAP money OR by borrowing more from the line of credit (exponential growth of debt). I have never heard of a line of credit that didn't require you to pay interest every month....would be nice......So, that is the reason that we are so upset about the cap on OSAP that doesn't even cover our tuition.....if we could get more OSAP, we would pay less interest. But, because OSAP doesn't cover our needs, we are forced to borrow from the banks and we pay them interest for the privilege. Most of us are living (rent, utitities, food, clothing, transportation, etc) entirely off borrowed money (in some form) and have an annual income of -$30 000/yr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shanna Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 Ok, I think I understand it now... so what I would do then is find out the average cost of living in the area I intend to attend med school, ie rent, utilities etc... and when I apply for my loans/line of credit I make sure that I cover those expenses for the time that I am in school or for the whole 4 years? I'm not entirely certain how it works for that sort of thing. I know that my grants and scholarships will cover more than half of the entire 4 years of school- I'll have to get a loan for the rest of the tuition- but I never factored in living expenses because I thought (silly me ) that I could work during that time and scrape by. Have any of you dealt with non-med school debt as well? I mean- I have a student loan that has covered my BS tuition, that I am making monthly payments on because I am working. Recently though I was given a few scholarships and a grant- but my tuition is paid for. How can I use the scholarships then? Also- on another checklist of Things To Do As A Pre-Med it said to make sure you have good credit before applying to med school- does this mean debt-free or just have good credit? I have excellent credit but I know when I apply for med school I will still be paying on my previous student loan. Can anyone tell I'm confused? btw I think I said before... I am ecstatic to pay for Canadian tuition. The education is just as good as any other med school, but so much less expensive, as is the cost of living. The quality of life is better too, imo.. and what I'm planning on is having Canadian citizenship by residency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 Don't worry too much about your credit rating. As it turns out, getting into medicine does wonders for your credit rating, at least as far as Canadian Medical Schools are concerned. As far as previous student loans, "supposedly" these aren't supposed to be a problem. Thing is, if you do the math for attending Western for medicine. . . previous loans can be a problem. UWO's admin budgets total costs (living expenses, books, tuition) at a little over $30,000/year, not including interest payments at all. Most of the Bank's Lines of Credit work out to roughly $125,000 for the whole 4 years. Add interest payments to that $30,000 per year, times 4 years and you're running into trouble. With previous debts, it's even more problematic Fortunately, bursaries work in your favour. Rumours here are that bursaries can get up into the $10,000-$15,000 range as your debt escalates. And if you have previous student loans, that means bigger bursaries from the onset. But figuring out whether that counteracts the interest payments is fairly complicated math, particularly as I don't know how they calculate bursaries. If you do have significant previous debts, I guess the only thing to go on is faith in the Dean's promise that "finances will not be a barrier to medical education at Western." I'm not sure this has been tested yet, but supposedly if finances do become a problem, UWO will ensure you get enough bursaries or needs-based awards to make do until you graduate. But just looking at my own situation, I could see this becoming a significant problem. And I graduated from my undergrad degree with NO debt. I'm currently in the middle of second year, and owe $50,000 on my line of credit and over $12,000 in OSAP. Fortunately, bursaries and the millenium scholarship to cover me for the rest of the year, but my debt going into third year will be in the $60,000-$65,000 range (at the least.) With my bank, the MOST I can get is $125,000. . . and not only is the most expensive part of my education (clerkship and 4th year CaRMS applications) yet to come, but my monthly interest payments on the Line of Credit are escalating as well. Unless the bursaries I get significantly increase the next two years, and increase enough to offset my increasing interest payments, I'll run into trouble long before starting residency. Basically I'm counting on that Dean's promise that "finances will not be a barrier to medical education at Western" or that a new Line of Credit package will be offered to us Canadian Medical Students with an increased line of credit (personally, knowing how much residents make and how much trouble I'd be in trying to pull a greater than $125,000 debt through a five or six year residency program, I'm hoping for the former and not the latter. . .) And I will reiterate that I graduated from my undergraduate degree with NO debt. I honestly can't figure out how my classmates who didn't graduate with debt are managing, or how the Dean can promise that $$ won't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted December 11, 2002 Report Share Posted December 11, 2002 Of course UWO specific info won't help you too much....given that there is a zero chance of getting in as an international student.....(even if you promise to work in Canada, stay in Canada, become a Canadian....You must BE a Canadian when you are applying.....) You might want to get in contact with the admissions offices at McMaster or McGill and find out what their experience with $$$ for international students is like....I don't know if they have bursaries of the magnitude mentioned by UWOMED2005 for international students too. I also don't know what the Canadian banks would do with a non-Canadian med student...you may have to borrow your money from an American bank. I know that when Canadian students go to the US, they usually need to have an American citizen co-sign their loan from an American bank. Of course this is a bit of a problem for students with no American friends or relatives. At UWO, there is a student group that surveys the classes to get an idea of what we are all paying for things like rent, books, food, transportation, etc and then publishes an example budget. The current average budget, given our present $15 000 tuition is about $30 000/yr. This may be increasing as tuition may (will likely) be increasing again....If you have previous undergrad debt, you need to factor paying this off/paying interest on it into your own personal budget. It is not included in the 'generic' budget, so, if you have undergrad debt, your budget will be more than $30 000/yr. Most schools can likely give you an idea of what the average student is paying for food, rent, etc in their area....it will vary by school location....for example, rent is much higher in Toronto compared to Hamilton or London..... As for how you go about getting funding for all of this, I don't know. There are options like provincial and federal student loans available for Canadians, as well as various scholarships and bursaries from the schools, you can also 'sell your soul to the military' and they will pay your tuition and give you a living allowance....of course they also restrict you to family medicine and own you for five years after you graduate....most of these options will not be available to you as an American but you could investigate similar programs available to US med students.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted August 7, 2005 Report Share Posted August 7, 2005 Floating back to the top. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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