Guest MDin2006 Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Does anyone know the average salary of a resident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Can't remember the exact figures - I think they're on the CaRMS site, divide by province, but it's roughly $40,000-$50,000 per year. That wouldn't be bad, but you're working insane hours (supposedly enough to make that less than minimum wage) and probably trying to pay off $100,000 in student loans as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtws Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Go to, http://www.forces.ca/physician Look at the Medical Officer Training Plan. Anyone who has been in the military for any period of time knows what a sweet deal this program has become. (I say that because I personally believe that the inappropriate and/or ill-informed stigma attached to army life is what prevents more med students from signing on.) You will be paid $37000-46000 (plus full benefits) while you are a medical student, with your tuition and manditory expenses (textbooks, equipment, etc) paid for. Then paid $46000 and $49000 (todays dolars) in your family practice residence. Then you will work for the military (ready-made practice) for four years where your salary starts at $88000 and goes to $100000 (pretty much comensurate with what you should expect in civi land, but you don't have debt and overhead to pay off.) Sure you won't have full say in where you'll go for those four years, but you'll certainly be working, and more than likely in a third world country at some point - bathing their children. And at the end of it all, in terms of estate planning, you will be leaps and bounds ahead of your classmates and ready to do whatever you want and go wherever you've dreamed without having to carry a bank around on your back. I'm surprised more med students don't do it. It's really a no-brainer for me (of course I've been in the military for 13 years already so I'm a special case). Please, look in to it though. Our troops need and deserve some good docs. (do I sound like an informercial?) Cheers, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G8M8T Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Matt did you interview last year at McGill, MAC and Ottawa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Matt: First, I would like you to qualify what you mean by the "inappropriate and/or ill-informed stigma attached to army life." Second, I would like you to qualify what you mean by "you'll certainly be working, and more than likely in a third world country at some point - bathing their children." To me this statement appears to be inappropriate and/or ill-informed. On one hand, the colonial term "third world" is no longer in use (ie. American army colonialism towards Afghanistan, Iraq, Grenada, Chile, Nicaragua, and the list goes on....or the British in India etc.) and also why would I be interested in "bathing their children?" Taking a look at the site to which you directed fellow posters, (BTW it didn't work), I found the following information, quoted directly from the canadian forces website concerning medical officer training at: www.recruiting.forces.gc..../medi.html Quote #1: "In the field, as a Medical Officer, you may have to work irregular hours and accept the challenges of practising medicine under primitive conditions." What do they mean by "primitive conditions" (also an outmoded term) and why would I want to work irregular hours when a large number of people in medicine are trying to get away from that scenario? Quote #2: "When investigating health hazards of unusual environments, you may be exposed to the stresses of these environments, which may include extremes of pressure and temperature, lack of oxygen, acceleration, noise, noxious gases, and smoke, which are associated with such equipment as aircraft, tanks and artillery." My comments: No thanks. Why would I expose myself willingly to risk? In a hostile environment to boot? This is not some type of altruistic mission you're endorsing like Medecins Sans Frontieres. Bottomline: I do not want to appear hostile in writing these things. In fact the foregoing quotes were not even my words, but yours and the military's words. It appears to me that despite your good intentions in sharing with us this viable option, you may have unleashed a politically-charged warhead. Nonetheless, in the interest of fairness, and so as not to appear juvenile, I would like to say that this may indeed help those who find themselves in serious debt. I myself would rather go in debt than "serve" in the "armed" forces. If I incur serrious debt I would much rather join the provinces underserviced area tuition reimbursement program (which is also a farce) before I would ever join the forces. BTW, if you check out CBC or the Torontostar online, you will see front and center that Canadian support for armed action in Iraq is at an alltime low. In all fairness this sentiment can not be universally applied, but it is nonetheless arguable that individual citizens are highly unlikely to join the armed forces these days (Canadians at least) and its major "recruitment" strategy is a testament to this point. That said, if it works for you and you are proud to take up arms, then so be it. Macdaddyeh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Macdaddyeh, I find it extremely hard to believe that you didn't intend for your post to appear hostile, because it came across as _incredibly hostile_. I was a little shocked when I read it. I also have no intention of going into the armed forces, for various personal reasons. But I DO think that the Canadian military does some really excellent things, and that in many ways what they do is just as altruistic as Doctors without Borders. I appreciate what our military does, and have great respect for those that are willing to take risks to serve our country and our world. I appreciate Matt sharing his opinion with us about it, and was surprised to read about the tremendous benefits of the program. That's my opinion - and I don't think that it's _obviously_ the opinion of only a tiny minority, as you claim. Personally, I thought that the "bathing their children" thing was a reference to Joe Millionaire, where one of the contestants came across as particularly silly when she said she wanted to go to a third world country to "bathe their children"... I didn't see the episode, but I read the (very funny) summary at www.televisionwithoutpity.com/. Peachy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 It appears to me that despite your good intentions in sharing with us this viable option, you may have unleashed a politically-charged warhead. Nonetheless, in the interest of fairness, and so as not to appear juvenile, I would like to say that this may indeed help those who find themselves in serious debt. I myself would rather go in debt than "serve" in the "armed" forces.??? This entire message came off as pretty aggressive to me as well. I don't think the military option is one that appeals to the majority of med students, and probably not even to a significant minority of them. There isn't a single one of us in my class of 120 who is in the above program. Despite that, I think mtws was just trying to highlight yet another option for medical students. It's another avenue for people to pursue, and for certain individuals, I'm sure it's very compatible with their life goals. Thank you mtws for bringing it up. As far as the military goes, I'm sure perspectives and emotions are high given the whole Iraq/US fiasco at the present. No doubt a huge number of Canadians and people around the world don't support the impending war, and the human toll that will be lost. Despite that, it doesn't change the fact that as long as there are countries and borders, there will be armies, and these people need medical attention like everyone else. Anyways, I was going to move this to the CaRMS and residency forum based on its original question, and I still think it belongs there instead of the McMaster forum, so away it goes... There's a few links in the CaRMS forum regarding residency salaries across Canada. pub125.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm25.showMessage?topicID=92.topic Ian UBC, Med 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Thank you for your prompt and succinct replies. I realize that you may have taken that message to be hostile. Due to the fact that I don't own a television I didn't understand the "bathing children" metaphor. Let's not romanticize war shall we? I respectfully apologize for offending anyone. I was simply sharing a point of view. Nonetheless, despite my conscientious objection to war, the option of joining the armed forces may be an option for some; that much is true. In the interest of information-sharing, as is the objective of this website, I acknowledge your opinion, thank you for it, and indeed Matt's information may help someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I think I might know who you are talking about G8M8T. If my suspicion is correct, they're in first year at McGill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kellyl20 Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I think that the Military needs people like Matt as much as Matt needs the Military. Mean to an end, why not? It would be challenging to many and most would not want to consider the military b/c of working conditions/environments and the danger that comes with serving in the military. For those that are brave enough, good for them I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DalHopeful Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 My uncle is a recruiter for the military and he certainly put the pressure on. My biggest beef with the whole deal is that you MUST be a family doctor. Since that is not what I am interested in, it was not an option for me to consider. I know you CAN go back and re-specialize, but as I have heard on here, it is more of a "well, you CAN do it.. but"... So in reality, once you have been working for 5 years as a doctor, it would be difficult to return to being a student on several levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtws Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I wrote a detailed retort to the first response yesterday, but I guess Ian moved the thread just before I posted it. It got lost. :\ Oh well. First off - The web address was corrected on time: http://www.forces.ca/physician (without an 's'). Peachy is correct, the 'bathing their children' comment was a lame reference to that Joe Millionaire contestant. I was trying to conjure an image of what life might be like for a medical officer overseas on a United Nations Peacekeeping Mission or NATO engagement - I obviously failed misserably at that. Try thinking - modern day MASH - maybe that'll help!? (And trust me - I'm not trying to 'glorify war' by saying this - if you've ever seen our new 'field hospital' you'd know exactly what I mean.) My 'ill-informed' comment could use some clarification though: I've often wondered if aspiring medical students ever think about the people they will be treating at the end of this long journey and if their preconceptions about military personel deter them from military service!? I just want everyone to know that in my experience the honourable men and women who choose to serve their country in this capacity are, for the most part, fit, disciplined, and intelligent individuals with a strong sense of community and family. I will be honoured to treat them and their families as one of their physicians for my life time... edit... Had to go but I'm back now. Please don't ever worry about offending me, I enjoy a good debate, and respect your opinion. The underlying issue of that first 'hostile' post is something I'd like to address next: It blow's my mind how so many medical students simply say to themselves "becoming a medical officer is tantamount to supporting war!!" and leave it at that, never fully exploring their real feelings on the matter. (Firstly, if you knew the truth about how often a medical officer actually touches a weapon of any kind in his/her carreer you might understand the initial ironic humour of it all ) My wanting to be a medical officer in no way equates to my wanting to 'take up arms' or 'glorify warfighting'. The military is an extension of our government which in turn is an extension of its democratic citizens. Our military is not going to run amock, willy-nilly "taking up arms" against the will of the Canadian people. It just won't happen. Public opinion can and does sway our government (and sometimes vice versa but that's another story for the riverbank.) That said, consider the Ice Storm of 1998 in Ontario and Quebec and think of the many people who may have perished in their isolated homes if our government did not have a readily-deployable, integrally-commanded, quick-responding, body of people to bring those people generators and food! (Food for thought!) Next, in a deeper context - supporting our military and serving in our military is not mutually exclusive with having a love for humanity and preservation of life. On the contrary, the existence of our Canadian Forces, one could argue, is due to and essential for the preservation of our ubiquitous humanitarianism. (they took out the non-PC word 'Armed' in the early 90s by the way, but I quess the public never noticed?) We do not have to get into a long debate over a modern nations need for a military (however underfunded and ill-equiped). Public opinion is quite obviously not on a push for increasing funding and beefing up ours right now, and that's fine with me. Just know that this guy is going to put himself in harms way, if need be, to treat our soldiers and help our government meet its mandates. If you don't see any reason for doing so, then by all means don't do it, that's your decision to make. I think our soldiers deserve the best physicians, even in this time of relative public apathy towards them. They are, afterall, there for us aren't they? (Fade to an image of that med A on the beach at the opening of Saving Private Ryan. Notice he never touched a weapon in the film?) Cheers, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I've actually given the MOTP program quite a bit of consideration. And I am (for the most part) a pacifist - I don't think our government gets engaged in any truly immoral activities, unlike some other countries Bushes, oops mean Leaders (sorry, Freudian Slip. ) To me, the three things holding me back are: 1) Having to commit to Family Practice (at least for the first few years, and there aren't that many specialties offered after that) 2) Military Family Practice is supposed to be different from civilian - I've heard it's quite a bit of sports injuries and STDs. Yeah, it's only 4 years of service. But will I lose my competency over that time? (Note - I realize the military has taken steps to correct this problem by allowing a few weeks service each year in a civilian hospital) 2) Having to commit for such a long time so far in advance with no say in where I live. What if I get married between now and when I begin service? Something to think about. . . I might end up signing up once I have my MD - I think the signing bonus then is $150,000 or whatever. I think it's worth delaying signing up until Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtws Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 That sounds about right. I'm sure those three misgivings are precisely what prevents most who seriously consider it. And they are legitimate concerns. For me though, someone who knows exactly what he's getting himself into, the benefits far outway the negatives. (And I have a wife and child and we own a home and a cottage to consider). All I can say is that, if you choose to go that route, you're sure to meet many interesting people who will likely become very important friends along the way. (I met my wife and most of my best friends in the Army and I think it safe to say they're friends for life.) And, in the grand scheme of things, isn't four years really just a drop in the bucket? Cheers and good luck, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtws Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Nope, you must be thinking of the wrong guy. I interviewed at UofT and UofO last year. (thought they went well - hoping this year does the trick.) Cheers, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtws Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I just figured out that I can reply directly to your comments instead of just ADD'ing a REPLY. Please see my explanation above. Cheers, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtws Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Thank you for that Kellyl20. The problem for me is finding "an unconditional acceptance to a Canadian Undergraduate Doctor of Medicine Program". They're really hard to come by these days. Cheers, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sally2001 Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 i've actually looked into the forces new recruiting campaign wrt to engineers (and the motp as well). i've asked a number of friends and ppl i look upto who have had experience in the forces in combat (canadian) and other countries. i must say i was somewhat naive about the whole thing, and believe me, i am NOT, a supporter of war, esp the one upcoming. the one thing i learned while investigating this, is that as soon as you wear that uniform, you are a potential target. and you need to be aware of the risks involved. as the forces say on their literature, in times of peace, employment in the forces is similar to civilian employment. but as soon as you're shipped out to a base overseas or in a "hostile" environment, it's fair game for you, and maybe moreso than the boys in combat because, if you're like me, you'll be hiding in the corner :b but on the positive side, i've also learned it's a once-in-a-lifetime experience, a place to gain great leadership skills, develop character, and serve one's country. the compensation is good too, but there are so many things to consider. the risks are a major part of that. ps: mtws, do they actually use a ruler to measure your bed-making skills? i thought the basic training video was a riot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 macdaddyeh, I respectfully apologize for offending anyone. I was simply sharing a point of view. Nonetheless, despite my conscientious objection to war, the option of joining the armed forces may be an option for some; that much is true. In the interest of information-sharing, as is the objective of this website, I acknowledge your opinion, thank you for it, and indeed Matt's information may help someone. My apologies to you if I've offended you as well. I think the whole idea of this impending war is setting people on edge, myself included. I believe the US is reaching for the "war" cudgel way too prematurely; what are we really trying to accomplish here? Ian UBC, Med 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtws Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 Yes, they still measure your bed! Although, I'm not sure I'd do that for medical officers. I've never actually trained a Medical Officer on Basic Officer Training but I'd guess that I'd tone things down somewhat (complete speculation on my part - But I can almost guarantee that you wouldn't get the same intensity level as infantry privates - no need). Only the initial training is ever this strict anyway. It's a 'right of passage' so to speak and higher levels of training focus more on the vocational skills. It's all about indoctrination. That sounds like a scary word I know. But simply consider that soldiers must react instinctively to a superiors words of command. Regardless of how silly they feel they are at the time. Without that, the system breaks down. I often use the McDonald's analogy when I'm training recruits, it's not such a big deal if a BigMac flipper refuses to flip. Military training has changed quite a bit since I was a recruit in 1990 (I was only 16 so I'm not an old geezer, yet!). They used to physically push you around and get in your face and yell and scream and single people out - which often led to 'blanket parties' and the like, where the members of the platoon would take it upon themselves to 'correct' the one soldier that was bringing them down. That is something that young men and women fall into with alarming ease. In one respect it can strengthen a team (but only at the expense of one member of the team who cannot ever then be an effective member of that team), and on the other hand it demeans and dehumanizes the one individual (which should always have been unacceptable). The army did a good thing to ensure these things don't happen any longer. Team building can easily be accomplished in many more civilized ways. It certainly is a 'kinder, gentler army' now and it is significantly more effective. More so in my mind because our soldiers need to 'think' more often and better if they want to lead. That was a little off topic, but there you go. You know, I had one of those moments of epiphany back when Clinton was both being impeached, and bombing Iraq on the same day. If I were the guy in the B2 with my finger on the bomb-release, I'd have questions. Not good for the system. Even though that's a different country with a different command structure - the implications are the same. I almost quit that day, until I realized how important it was that I did have those questions and that the system needs to be held up to certain level of scrutiny at times. Maybe this is the wrong place for this discussion. Let's get back to med school interview chat!? Cheers, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 Hi there: Matt, I don't know if you took note, but I apologized to you (under the Mac forum) for my hard-core response a few posts ago. Conversely, Ian, I accept your apology even though I am really the one that should look like a dubm!@#! Good night|I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sally2001 Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 mtws, thanks for all the info and the great response. i think its very relevant since part of committing to the motp program requires an understanding of the organization to which you are spending (at least) 4 yrs! as i understand, even with signing bonuses of $225K, tuition reimbursed etc etc, only 25 ppl have signed up (or have been accepted) into the program. well that's what the article in the Globe and mail said.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 My understanding is that it's signing bonus OR tuition reimbursement. At least that's what the recruiting officer I spoke to told me. The signing bonus is for Docs who've already graduated, as they can't reimburse their tution. Mtws - correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sally2001 Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 uwomed2005, i believe you are right; pardon me for being misleading. when i went into the recruiting center, the guy told me that once you get accepted into a canadian med school, they pay your way in return for a service contract. the 225K$ figure i got was from a globe and mail article that i can't get the link to (bc they redid their website). however, here are the relevant paragraphs from that article: --- copy starts "We need everybody. Doctors, engineers, cooks and administrative help -- everybody," he says. "If we deploy somewhere, we have to be self-sustaining. We can't depend on local civilian support for medical or for any of those professional services. . . . We are a microcosm of society, basically." For the past five years, the military has been extending signing bonuses to doctors and dentists, but they haven't been as eagerly received as the bonuses for engineers. This is despite the fact that the military raised the doctors' signing bonus to an eye-popping $225,000 last year, from $80,000. Dentists receive $25,000. "That signing bonus isn't doing a whole lot, quite frankly. If you have a set practice and you are comfortable with it, a $225,000 signing bonus isn't necessarily all that attractive," says Capt. White. So far this fiscal year, the CF has only managed to attract about 20 doctors; it wants 100. He adds that the military's tuition recruitment program, where it pays a person's entire tuition in exchange for four years of service, is still the best way to lure doctors. --- copy ends i have the pay scale table with me as well: a medical officer (captain) starts at $7300/mo - $10K/mo after 7 yrs. a major goes from $10,300 - $11,500/mo and a major specialist goes from $11K/mo - $12K/mo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 No worries - I only corrected you because I myself was mislead into thinking that was the case when I was considering MOTP. You shouldn't do something like that strictly for the money, but when you're mildly interested in something like this anyways, the med school debts are piling up, and all you see is negative transactions on your bank account the bottom line can sometimes seem like a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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