med schools accepting grad students

[Guest wannabdoc]

I had a question maybe someone can help me with on this board. I am starting a MSc program this year. Also I am looking to apply to med school in October of this year. Does anyone know which med schools are willing to accept people from their first year in grad school? And if accepted, can I leave my masters or pursue a dual masters and med degree simultaneously? Thanks to anyone who replies.

[Guest stepstofollow]

can't speak for the other schools, but at Dalhousie this is NOT permitted. If you are enrolled in graduate work, you MUST be able to have the whole thing completed before you start medical school.

 

For example, if you applied to medicine and could not demonstrate /verify that you are able to complete all the requirements for your graduate degree by the time you would start, you would not be considered for that year's applicant pool. If you were considered because it appeared likely you would finish in time, and offered a spot, you would then have to furnish evidence that your grad work is completed, or your offer for admission will be withdrawn. Dal is VERY strict with this policy.

[Guest canuck0000]

From previous posts (well, before they all went *poof*), it seems that Western also requires that graduate work be finished by the time you enter med (similar to the post by stepstofollow on Dalhousie's rules).

[Guest wannabdoc]

Can anyone confirm that toronto and Ottawa accepts people from grad studies and allow them to defer their entrance for a year? What about other schools besides Dal and Western?

[Guest Procuitto]

Hey there,

 

I know that for Toronto, you need to send a letter from the members of your supervisory committee both evaluating your research to-date and clearly stating that you will be complete by the deadline of June 30 prior to entrance. You also need to submit a research productivity package which amounts to essentially your CV with publications and poster presentations etc.

 

U of T is supposed to be fairly good (or so I hear) about allowing you to defer should unexpected research set-backs prevent you from completing in time. However, that being said, you would have a tough time getting your supervisory committee to write you a letter stating that you would be done in time if they knew full well you wouldn't be. So, unless you are considering a one year masters program than it wouldn't be an option for U of T. (As a side note, I also hear that U of T is fairly relaxed about the June 30th deadline too, in that if you are done July 31 it doesn't matter so long as you are done by the time med school starts).

 

UBC does not take students during the first year of their masters, unless of course, again, it is a one year masters. UBC is quite strict with this rule and won't accept your application unless you are going to be finished by the July 1st deadline. If you aren't done, UBC claims you are SOL - they are really strict about it and won't let you defer, unlike U of T.

 

From what I understand, all schools in Canada (please correct me if I'm wrong someone) will not allow you to apply unless you can demonstrate that you will be done by their deadline. Some schools (U of A), won't even take your grad school marks until the degree is conferred. The rationale is that you have a contract with your supervisor to complete a project and by dropping out of grad school you are breaking that contract.........which doesn't demonstrate integrity. Also, they don't want you to be doing both at the same time. Trust me, grad school is enough work on its own without having to deal with med school as well! Hell, grad school plus med applications was a pain in my butt!!!

 

I say, do the two year masters (but make sure your supervisor knows your intentions and can guarantee that he'll support you to finish in 2 years), enjoy it and get the most out of it. Then apply and get in right away. This is what I did...or at least I'm hoping I did....I'm waiting out on Toronto right now.

 

Best of luck to you!!! Let me know if you need any more clarification.

 

Proscuitto

[Guest vanquish444]

well, what about course-based grad studies?

[Guest svp2k5]

Hey,

 

I was in your shoes last year. I applied last october, having about 8 months of grad school under my belt. Ottawa gave me a straight rejection, saying they didn't accept first year grad students (although I am going to be finished this august)Their reasoning was that they couldn't accurately evaluate my course work, although I am in a thesis based masters program and only had to take two credits.

 

I think Queens lets you enroll in medical school without having completed your masters degree.

 

Western will allow you to enroll as long as you have submitted your thesis by august 28 (I guess you can defend any time after that).

 

As was said before, U of T required a "grad package" detailing your research, publications, etc. I think Ottawa and Toronto are the only ontario schools requiring this type of package.

[Guest spring2]

i am pretty sure that queens, mcgill and manitoba will let you apply/enroll without completing your grad degree.

[Guest satsumargirl]

As far as I know there are no Ontario schools that will let you do this.

 

It is bad for the grad programs (and some of these programs for part of medical faculties)and your supervisor if students enrol and leave without finishing their work.

 

If you plan on doing this and find somewhere that will accpet you , I would be up front with your supervisor. After all, you'll likely be asking for a reference letter. And most schools require a letter from your supervisor stating he/she is aware you are applying and anticipates you will be done on time.

 

I know if a grad student who got into Queen's after 1 year of MSc. BUT he was required to come back the following summer to finish his degree. And the supervisor had to agree to it. He had also started his research during his undergrad and so had a substantial amount of data already that helped.

 

So, that's what I know. Of course you will have to check out each school.

[Guest chemgirl]

Procuitto,

I wanted to correct your information about the U of A. Alberta is an excellent school to choose if you are interested in pursuing research that you have already started while doing medical school. They most definitely use your graduate marks in calculating your prereq and cumulative GPA if you don't yet have your degree conferred. I found them most accomodating in terms of working around finishing my PhD and doing medical school.

 

Alberta has an MD/PhD program specifically for those who are interested in doing both at the same time, so it is incorrect to state that they don't want you to do both at the same time! It is challenging, for sure, but some people thrive off that challenge.

[Guest Procuitto]

Sorry about that. My bad....I knew I had not been eligible to apply there for some reason and I thought this was why but I'll have to look further into it to recall.

[Guest clinicalchief]

You can also apply/enroll at MUN without finishing your MSc.

 

cc

[Guest uteng]

I think I had to ask my supervisor to send three letters during the application process before October to Ottawa, NOMS, and Toronto. The letter stated that the supervisor was aware of my application to medical school and that I could finish on time.

 

You would basically know your supervisor for a month or less when requesting this letter if you were to apply after one year.

[Guest noncestvrai]

You can at McGill, in fact you can be doing both at the same time, which I did for half a year. It's a question of preference. I think the policy of not letting one enter medical school without finishing the grad degree to be quite hampering on the applicant's freedom, what if the student does not like it anymore? For whatever reason for that matter. If I start a BA that's ok to drop, if I start a job that's ok too...kind of a double standard, IMHO.

 

I favour the completion, if possible, but who are they, the med faculties, to dictate what one should do if they already met the prereqs...

 

noncestvrai

[Guest chenzy]

Wannabdoc:

 

I know Calgary would not have any restrictions on you applying while in the first year of your masters and they are accomodating to those that may want to do an MSc/MD combined program.

[Guest uteng]

I disagree with noncestvrai, and I totally agree with the policy of making it difficult for grad students to ditch their degree mid-way through.

 

If you're doing an undergrad and you quit, no one has invested time in you, it's just you paying tuition to attend some classes.

 

If you're a grad student, the supervisor in many cases puts in a lot of work on your behalf to get grant funding for you and/or your equipment, provides you with lab space, helps you shape your research question, puts you in touch with people who can help you in your project. In exchange you help them advance the research in their area, maybe your work helps get the lab more funding, and you can generate publications on behalf of the lab. If you ditch midway through your degree, you win, your supervisor loses. His/her valuable time could be spent working with a grad student that would actually want to finish their work.

[Guest cutieyellow]

Perhaps you're right uteng-but NCV did complete his degree. He did both for a while and completed it.

 

I have friends that were almost done their Ph.D. They were missing a bit of labwork or they had to write up their thesis or something. They started med school and in the summer or whatever time they had, they finished up their degree. I think it's important to finish the degree, however i don't find it's fair that it's mandatory that you do. Some years are better to get into med than others... NCV can concur...had he had to finish his degree, maybe he never would have made it... Things always happen for a reason

 

CY

[Guest noncestvrai]

uteng,

 

what about quitting work? Your employer invested time, money on you too. How is work really different from gradschool? The latter, however, being a sacrosaint exception?

 

The undergrad too, the taxes invested by your fellow citizens, also in vain by your argument. Let's say I want to quit meds because I would like to be a pilot, I should not?

 

By law your employer or you needs 2 weeks notice if I remember before quitting, that's it. Now, morally, that's different but that's really up to you, and how your relationship with your supervisor/employer is valuable to you.

 

Like CY mentionned, I completed my degree, but if my former supervisor gave me unrealistic expectations (to me), I would not have compromised my goal of medicine. A medical school against that would violate my freedom.

 

Medicine is medicine, not graduate work. I find it even more funny that a school would require to finish gradschool and they would not even consider it in their criteria for evaluation of your file...

 

noncestvrai

[Guest stepstofollow]

Vanquish444:

At Dal, you must finish even course based studies BEFORE acceptance would be offered. I was doing a course based Masters (In medical education, I might add) and avoided a thesis track, I until I heard from med school. I was offered a conditional acceptance in March, pending completion of all graduate studies by September, even though I could easily finish my last elective b/w 1st/2nd year med school. Anyway, no big deal, I just completed the last course, and my acceptance will now be 100% secured for Sept.

 

I have heard of people at Dalhousie whose offers of acceptance were withdrawn for not completing grad studies they had enrolled in.

 

I was well into my degree beforeI applied, and I knew I could complete it in time and madwe this crystal clear on my application. My file was reviewed at Dal, and my grad work considered as part of the whole picture that is "me", and they look closely at the likelihood of completion by September. Dal contacts all grad supervisors to confirm this likelihood, before you'll even be offered an interview or offer for admission. Similar to what Uteng described.

 

The rule at Dal is not flexible re: this issue. For example, even though I wanted to finish my last elective next year, I was not allowed to do so. However, I am glad to be done, and I do agree with the overall principle of meeting the requirements for the grad degree before admissions will be offered and fully understand the reasons for it -- too many people have blown off their grad degrees. Furthermore, it can make for bad relationship between faculties, as well.

 

Do graduate work if you WANT to -- but apply only as you are nearing completion. I agree, it should not be used as a pitstop, but it can be a pathway, so long as you follow the road signs!!!!!!

[Guest satsumargirl]

what about quitting work? Your employer invested time, money on you too. How is work really different from gradschool? The latter, however, being a sacrosaint exception?

 

You are essentially entering into a contract with your supervisor when you accept a position in his/her lab. I suppose people who do contract work can quit, but they had better have a valid reason why the work can't be completed.

I'm not sure I agree that medical school is a valid reason. If your goal was to pursue a medical degree from the start then why accept a position in grad school. You commit to the program or you don't. What does bailing on your grad degree say to the admissions committee about your perseverance and commitment? Not to mention that you may have accepted a grad position in a faculty of medicine...you want to bail on them and then ask that they accept you into another one of their programs? And what of any external scholarships you may have earned. What a waste of money to fund you for a year and have no end result. I think requiring the completion of your grad degree completely acceptable. If you are near the end and just have to write up your thesis and it's o.k. with both parties great...but do finish it! If I was your supervisor I would not be impressed that in a matter of weeks after starting you were asking me to write you a letter of reference and essentially informing me that you were going to quit. In fact, as your supervisor I would probably withdraw my supervisorship and hire another student before I invested any more time, money and other resources in your training.

 

Grad school should not be used as a "pit-stop" before medicine. And I think the medical faculties are justified is setting up measures to prevent people from doing that. Grad students are very important to the functioning of universities...they earn scholarships, hopefully write good publications, (both of which raise the profile of the university)can generate more income for the lab, TA undergrad students etc...

 

If you change your mind part way through...well what can you do. But to go into it knowing you are not going to stay and hiding it from your supervisor, that is just plain wrong.

[Guest noncestvrai]

Under the Quebec civil law, you must give 2 weeks notice before giving your letter of resignation...anyhow, when I started my MSc I told my boss I wanted to go into medicine, but that I would complete the degree because I believe in completing things I start and he had my word.

 

Satsumargirl,

 

Define a valid reason to quit the grad degree...

 

I can think of a few, a nice paying job, lack of interest (i.e. research is not for me), starting medicine I think is a valid reason, so would be starting art history! Grad school is not a totalitarian state last time I checked (gushes), people live their lives, things happen, how can you hold it against them?

 

I'm done explaining this fact, and people may have their own opinion, your utilitarian argument just does not cut it, in my humble opinion, because I don't see how an engineer is not as worthy as a grad student for society (the major contributor to university funds) for instance. In this "contract", the supervisor assumes some risk, and it is up to him to select the proper candidate. Besides, if he is wise, he will not put all his eggs into one basket...and hopefully he knows that nobody is irreplacable. The same as a good manager of a company.

 

To the OP,

 

Do what you feel is right, but think about every decisions thouroughly. Know thyself.

 

noncestvrai

[Guest satsumargirl]

when I started my MSc I told my boss I wanted to go into medicine, but that I would complete the degree because I believe in completing things I start and he had my word.

 

That is great...you were up front and honest. That is all I think people should be. I wonder if your supervisor would have taken you on if you said you were going to leave before finishing...I bet not.

 

So many people post on this board asking for easy grad programs or wondering how they can go from grad to med student without finishing their grad degrees. If someone isn't interested in grad school, they just shouldn't go. And if, before even starting the degree they are planning on not finishing then that doesn't sound like he/she is interested.

You should do a grad degree if you are interested in the topic or learning what research is about. If, part way through you decide it isn't for you, that is another story. And in my first post I made this distinction (between someone who just changed their mind and someone who from the start planned on not finishing...it doesn't make sense to me why you would start something if you don't plan on finishing).

 

If someone applied to meds in undergrad and didn't get in there are so many other interesting things he/she can do to improve his/her application that doesn't involve grad school. Volunteering in an orphanage in Thailand, for example. Or helping out on a population health research project in Ecuador or any number of things. Or...even another year of undergrad. Which in many respects makes more sense, since as it has already been pointed out, med schools don't even look at your grad marks.

 

You certainly have the legal right to quit your work or your grad degree for any number or reasons, you don't like your supervisor, you decide you hate killing rats, whatever.

 

I don't think that it is unreasonable that medical schools have policies in place that protect the integrity and functioning of their faculties, of the other faculties within their university and of other universities.

 

Think of the number of students programs could potentially lose if they didn't have these measures in place. And, I wouldn't be surprised if that is why they even got implemented in the first place (students using grad school as a pit-stop to med school). I totally support these policies for research-based programs anyway. I think if it's a course-based program than there should be some leniancy.

 

 

In this "contract", the supervisor assumes some risk, and it is up to him to select the proper candidate.

 

In my opinion, the proper candidate isn't someone who will take the position knowing that they are going to quit (and not being honest about it, because lets face it, what supervisor would take on a student who openly says he/she is not staying) .

 

This was obviously not your case, you were honest about your ambitions and you completed your degree. And that is exactly what I think people should do.

 

Enough said? Anyone is free to agree or disagree. Fact is, med schools have these policies in place for a reason.