superchargedman Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Hi Everyone, I've been hearing rumours for the past two years that Western is either considering removing the MCAT requirement or removing certain components. I haven't heard anything more about this recently. Does anyone have any insider info? Thanks. ________ DODGE POWER WAGON HISTORY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyleh Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 I can't see them removing the MCAT yet. Currently this year new requirements are necessary.. <an honour degree is required + no pre-req courses> so I am sure they will see how this affects application numbers before advancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGray Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I personally think waiving the MCAT requirement is not a wise move (i.e. it's not in the best interest of the medical school) We will see what they do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temp_degoo Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I never heard about this, but apparently its popular. Otherwise, why else would they make a note on their updated website that the MCAT is still required for 2008 applicants. I think the MCAT should be required, but not strict cutoffs (although I see, understand and accept their use). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeDoc Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I highly doubt that they will remove the MCAT requirement. The only thing keeping Western from not turning into McMaster Meds is the MCAT requirement. The MCAT is a great equalizer for all of us pre-meds out there. Yeah it's a standardized test, and we want to stick it to the man, but whatever, alot of people just suck it up and write it. What will be, will be. The removal of the MCAT will SPIKE applications, and Western had applicants write that little blurb with their application this year. But, yet again, there was no holistic approach to their interview selection methods. It was a computer generated print off. GPA 3.70, MCAT 10-10-10 Q Receives Interview GPA 3.69, MCAT 12-12-12 T Does not Receive Interview So either way if they remove the MCAT, something will have to take it's place, cuz Western is not the kind of school to sift through the initial thousands of applicants CV's and sketches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eise Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 In converstaions with med school profs as a UWO undergrad, the removal of the MCAT requirement was often discussed. Many profs are for the removal. However, it was clearly expressed that it will take a few years, if it is removed at all (politics). I personally prefer U of T's method of evaluating applicants, although it definitely requires a lot more resources. Western/Queen's way is much easier, but not necessarily fair, as demonstrated by DeeDoc's example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeDoc Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 In converstaions with med school profs as a UWO undergrad, the removal of the MCAT requirement was often discussed. Many profs are for the removal. However, it was clearly expressed that it will take a few years, if it is removed at all (politics). I personally prefer U of T's method of evaluating applicants, although it definitely requires a lot more resources. Western/Queen's way is much easier, but not necessarily fair, as demonstrated by DeeDoc's example... Eise, you forgot to mention about how many profs are NOT for the removal of the MCAT. If the MCAT were removed, they'd be recruiting meds and profs to read and sift through the thousands upon thousands of applications. I've spoken to Carol Herbert, and the SWOMEN Assistant Dean about the removal of the MCAT, and the new Windsor campus. They both indicated that the MCAT would not be removed anytime in the near future, until more resources to screen applicants thoroughly and holistically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyMax Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hey, Yeah, I can't see Western getting rid of the MCAT requirement anytime soon. Besides, the purely quantitative system of selecting interview candidates that is in place now is one of the fairest and by far the most transparent that I've seen. Make the cutoffs, get an interview. Simple. Besides, if the system were different, ploughboy might have ended up somewhere not quite as good and reality as we all know it would be different (well, not all that different, but a little bit different)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeDoc Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hey, Yeah, I can't see Western getting rid of the MCAT requirement anytime soon. Besides, the purely quantitative system of selecting interview candidates that is in place now is one of the fairest and by far the most transparent that I've seen. Make the cutoffs, get an interview. Simple. Besides, if the system were different, ploughboy might have ended up somewhere not quite as good and reality as we all know it would be different (well, not all that different, but a little bit different)! Poor ploughboy. I agree though, this is probably one of the fairest systems of selecting interview candidates. It is understood that one can be a good physician with a 3.68 GPA, but c'est la vie. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eise Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I'm not sure I agree that Western's/Queen's method is fair. What about a candidate with a 4.0 GPA, 14/14/9/T, and excellent extra/vol/res? This person would automatically get thrown out in the automatic system. Will this person not be a good physician? Who knows, but I would sure as hell give him a chance! p.s. this person is definitely not me..... Edit: this is an OBJECTIVE system, but not necessarily FAIR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerade Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I'm not sure I agree that Western's/Queen's method is fair. What about a candidate with a 4.0 GPA, 14/14/9/T, and excellent extra/vol/res? This person would automatically get thrown out in the automatic system. Will this person not be a good physician? Who knows, but I would sure as hell give him a chance! p.s. this person is definitely not me..... Edit: this is an OBJECTIVE system, but not necessarily FAIR. i agree ... objective is not neccessarily fair. i think a more subjective approach, like toronto's (where a few readers examine the entire application), really is the most suitable for this sort of thing. in this case, someone with one sub-par mcat section but excellant credentials otherwise would do fine. this takes more resources though .... so its not really fair to hold it against western and queens for doing it this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 i agree ... objective is not neccessarily fair. i think a more subjective approach, like toronto's (where a few readers examine the entire application), really is the most suitable for this sort of thing. in this case, someone with one sub-par mcat section but excellant credentials otherwise would do fine. this takes more resources though .... so its not really fair to hold it against western and queens for doing it this way. Yea...UofTs method is really good. However, I think they place a little too much emphasis on GPA. Afterall, what's the difference between a 3.80 and a 3.90? I do especially like their policy on MCAT and how it won't necessarily break your application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bioboy2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I'm not sure I agree that Western's/Queen's method is fair. What about a candidate with a 4.0 GPA, 14/14/9/T, and excellent extra/vol/res? This person would automatically get thrown out in the automatic system. Will this person not be a good physician? Who knows, but I would sure as hell give him a chance! p.s. this person is definitely not me..... Edit: this is an OBJECTIVE system, but not necessarily FAIR. Just because this person would get rejected from Western/Queen's doesn't mean they wouldn't get into med school at all. They would likely interview (and be potentially accepted) at Mac, Ottawa, and Toronto, as well as many schools outside of Ontario (as an OOP). Personally, I like the way that Queen's and Western operate. As TimmyMax mentioned, meeting the cutoffs means an automatic interview, which is simple and transparent. Using the reasoning that you pointed out above, why should an applicant with a 3.7GPA, 30+ (balanced) MCAT score, and excellent EC's be (likely) rejected from Ottawa, Mac and Toronto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I like Western and Queen's method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerade Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Just because this person would get rejected from Western/Queen's doesn't mean they wouldn't get into med school at all. They would likely interview (and be potentially accepted) at Mac, Ottawa, and Toronto, as well as many schools outside of Ontario (as an OOP). Personally, I like the way that Queen's and Western operate. As TimmyMax mentioned, meeting the cutoffs means an automatic interview, which is simple and transparent. Using the reasoning that you pointed out above, why should an applicant with a 3.7GPA, 30+ (balanced) MCAT score, and excellent EC's be (likely) rejected from Ottawa, Mac and Toronto? the point is that weakness in one area of an application can be easily made up for by other parts of the application. I disagree that u of t puts too much emphasis on GPA ... in fact you could say that more accurately about queens and western, since they base ALL of your pre-interview status on your GPA. toronto allows the whole applicant to be assessed. the grades can be viewed in light of the rest of the application, which may in fact give a reason why the grades may be sub par. also, toronto drops your bottom grades, which actually decreases the emphasis on gpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Honestly, I like that each school is different. It kind of gives you more than one option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathcliff Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 The way that Queen's and Western do it ensures that the people who get in will be best able to meet the demands of their program. By defining minimum requirements, and interviewing all of those above those minimum requirements, they are interviewing people who they believe have best displayed their ideal characteristics. Note that this may not give them a pool of people who will become the -best- physicians, but at least everyone in that pool has the potential to be -good- physicians. (Again, by their definitions.) A more subjective interview offer approach will probably give the best hope of getting those who would become -best- physicians. There are good things and bad things to objective and subjective approaches... I too like that there is variation among the schools. That way the 14/14/9/T has a shot at some places, while the 10/10/10/P also has a shot. Imagine all schools had the same objective criteria?? There would be more places than people interviewed...oh man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuckman Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Personally, I like UofT's approach the best. They look at MCAT which they don't place too much emphasis on. They also look at life experiences such as research, travel, volunteering, etc and of course the gpa. The Queen's and Western approach is not horrible but I think they should at least be more lenient to superb applicants. For instance, an applicant with 3.9 undergrad gpa and has a Ph.D but has MCAT 9/10/11 would be rejected. However, at UofT...the Ph.D would be looked at very highly. Also, I think Mac's system is ridiculous. 5 Questions ?!!? Mac has to get their act together! Zuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eise Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Using the reasoning that you pointed out above, why should an applicant with a 3.7GPA, 30+ (balanced) MCAT score, and excellent EC's be (likely) rejected from Ottawa, Mac and Toronto? Posted by Katerade: the point is that weakness in one area of an application can be easily made up for by other parts of the application. I disagree that u of t puts too much emphasis on GPA ... in fact you could say that more accurately about queens and western, since they base ALL of your pre-interview status on your GPA. toronto allows the whole applicant to be assessed. the grades can be viewed in light of the rest of the application, which may in fact give a reason why the grades may be sub par. also, toronto drops your bottom grades, which actually decreases the emphasis on gpa. Thanks Katerade! Especially since Bioboy's example is basically me! I would prefer a well rounded grad student to at least get a chance at med school, whereas with the automatic system, that does not happen. And I agree, it's nice that different people get chances at different schools. However, if there was unlimited resources, I just think it would be nice for all schools to consider things other than just GPA and MCATs, especially since studies have shown that non-cognitive traits predict success in medical school sometimes better than academic traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excalibre Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Just to throw my two cents in there. The MCAT is one of the better standardized exams I have taken. It does show something. People will say that they don't like being boiled down to a test, or that the MCAT proves nothing. But the same logic can be extended to a GPA, since for the most part it is mostly made up of marks from numerous tests, many of which are from profs that make bad/unfair tests. What I think Canadian schools need to do is to stop this cut-off nonsense. I know how anti-American many of us are, and I am no fan of the U.S., but we here could learn a lot from the universities over there and how they go about research/infrastructure/admissions etc... I have interviewed at some good schools in the U.S., but I've been rejected by school's here that are not as good in either research or primary care (of course, all are accredited by the LCME and all schools (95%) are world class). At those schools in the U.S. almost every time I have been greeted by the dean, or by the dean of admissions. I have had tonnes of interaction with the students. The application process at UWO consists of a dry cut-off (though they added this short essay now). At the interview you are greeted by no one - just Darla McNeil. The talk you get in the morning is arranged by students. The faculty put nearly no effort, and one faculty member comes to give a talk on the behest of the students. Unfortunately, the students put on a video that makes fun of the other schools. I am totally up for that, and I'm a chill guy. But showing a parody is not a good way for a professional school to be, well, professional. Then at the interview, the interviews are stuck to a regiment of asking you questions off a sheet in a small time frame. What I am trying to say here is that the Canadian system is horrible. It treats the students poorly through the application process because there are so many qualified applicants and few spaces. But is that the best way to attract and matriculate the best students. I don't think so. So far, I think UofT does it the best. They look at the whole application. There aren't any strict cut-offs. However, MCAT is only used as a flaging system. I think a high MCAT deserves some sort of recognition. At best, the system is a filter. However, it seems to select for extremes. Extremely academic students, that might be extremely good people, or as I have found, extremely messed up. I have met both, at Western and other schools. It worries me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah09 Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 I do like Western and Queen's approach, but I think they should either use an average MCAT score or make exceptions for people who get 14, 14, 9.. because really, to get that high and not get an interview is just ridiculous. And the approaches Ottawa and McMaster use seem a little too subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temp_degoo Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Why would you average subjects that are entirely different. They obviously feel that there must be a balance between all the sections, and prefer someone with a good balance over someone who excels in some areas and don't do as good in others. That said, I agree that UofT and McGill have the best system (of those schools to which I have applied). Taking everything into consideration is really the only way to go- and letting applicants explain themselves freely. The way I see it, they demand balance from us students, so they should grade us accordingly, focusing on balance without using stringest cutoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah09 Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 I do like U of T's approach the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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