Borderline...

[Redlan]

I've got between a 3.6 - 3.7 gpa, but a 28 MCAT. Acceptance to a Canadian school is looking dim. So what do you think my chances are at getting into an Amercian allopathic school? And if you think I can get in somewhere - where is that place? Thanks.

A little discouraged with Canada... and on the 'border'...

[xylem29]

I've got between a 3.6 - 3.7 gpa, but a 28 MCAT. Acceptance to a Canadian school is looking dim. So what do you think my chances are at getting into an Amercian allopathic school? And if you think I can get in somewhere - where is that place? Thanks.

A little discouraged with Canada... and on the 'border'...

 

If you exceptional EC's, then I'd just shoot for 2nd and 3rd tiered US schools - otherwise, you're chances as an international applicant are also looking dim, BUT, there's no harm in trying.

 

Good schools to shoot for would be:

 

Wayne State (though the 28 might get you cut as a Canadian)

Albany

SLU

MCW

Rosalind Franklin

 

There's a few more, but I can't remember off the top of my head right now. Just DAFS.

[Alastriss]

I think if you want a serious chance then you should consider rewriting your mcat

[Redlan]

This idea that you mention - of writing the MCAT again - is one that has perplexed me. I figure that the average MCAT score is something like a 24, and most students matriculate at an aveage of 30. This leaves me thinking that a 28 should be good - but as a Canadian applying to a US school, perhaps it is not. It even looks a little low for international schools. I must add that I had to work for that 28 - though dissapointed when I recieved it as I thought I had reached a 30.

This is all why I was thinking I'm on the border. But perhaps this is not the case as every year the scores required to get in increase as more applicants are in the pool.

I've written the MCAT twice by the way. I don't know if I could muster the energy to prep for it again.

I have some overseas health related as well as ER volunteering for ECs, and will probably start some research this summer. Sadly, my uncle is not the surgeon general...

With a 28MCAT and a 3.6 - 3.7gpa then, is this simply not enough for a Canadian to get into a US allopathic school, or an Irish one for that matter?

Borderline...

[medisforme]

Your gpa and mcat score should get you into an international school. I have read threads where people got into irish schools with the same mcat as yourself, but with a lower gpa. However, you have to weigh that against the fact that it will be years and years, if ever, before you would ever get to practice medicine in canada, unless you become extremely lucky.

On a side note: even though the average matriculant gpa for american med schools is lower than canadian med schools, that is only true for american citizens. Canadians applying to american med schools usually have to have at least similar gpa and mcat that it would take to get into canadian med schools (which is my i've always been confused at why people who can't get into canadian med schools apply to the states.)

[schnauzr]

hi medisforme,

 

I'll be applying to the US schools this summer, so I'm curious about what you just posted.

So the Canadian applicants, by average, have higher gpa than american applicants?, is that what you mean?

but don't most private US schools consider the canadian students on an equal basis as the american students?

so couldn't the higher avg. gpa of the students be explained in some other ways (eg. higher proportion of the canadian applicants having higher stats than that of the american students)?

[Redlan]

Thanks for your reply medisforme - I think your right about the stats of Canadians getting into American schools. From what I gather - generalizing this from a recent conversation I had with a Rosaline Franklin medical school advisor - I think I would need a 33-35 MCAT to get into a US school as a Canadian. That is a pretty high bar to reach...

[medisforme]

it has a lot to do with competition yes, and a lot to do economy wise. The US med schools have to think that there is at best about a 50% chance that a canadian who attends an american med school will end up working their career in the US. This means that 50% of the time they are "wasting" their resources on you (hence, the ridiculous tuition), and remember, canada isn't the only place with a physician shortage. Its much more probable (though there definitely is no hard or fast rule) that a person with killer stats, will end up in a prestigious residency, which increases the chance they will stay in the states (given all the extra money available for research, technology etc... compared to canada). It's basically the same reason why it is next to impossible to get into OOP med schools in Canada (they know you will likely go back to your home province once you graduate, and so they will have "wasted" provincial health care money training you, so they in turn only open up a few seats for OOP applicants which make the competition intense).

[a41]

I just got accepted at Wayne after being alt listed for 4 months.

 

My AMCAS GPA is 3.7-3.8 and 34 MCAT. I consider myself borderline...

[Big Baller]

I've got between a 3.6 - 3.7 gpa, but a 28 MCAT. Acceptance to a Canadian school is looking dim. So what do you think my chances are at getting into an Amercian allopathic school? And if you think I can get in somewhere - where is that place? Thanks.

A little discouraged with Canada... and on the 'border'...

 

I dont know why you are thinking that you cannot get into a Canadian Med School with that gpa. Write the MCAT again and if you get 30 or anything greater than that, your set. After that its all upto your sup app which could get you into a hot seat. GL

[a41]

I dont know why you are thinking that you cannot get into a Canadian Med School with that gpa. Write the MCAT again and if you get 30 or anything greater than that, your set. After that its all upto your sup app which could get you into a hot seat. GL

 

I wish we could all be so optimistic.

[Redlan]

Big Baller - I would agree with what you said if you mentioned that a 33-35 MCAT would make the file competitive enough to get an interview. I have the impression that it is getting harder to get in. With a low end gpa you need a high end MCAT - the latter is not easy to obtain (less than 10% have that high an MCAT score). Moreover, even with an ultra strong MCAT (and gpa for that matter), it is next to impossible to get into a med school as an out-of-province student(OOP) - in case you have not looked into it, the requirements are much more difficult for OOP entry than for your in province school(s). This latter statement applies to entry into a US med school as a Canadian as well - from the discussions I have had with adcom members in the states.

 

I was tempted to ask any of the schools I contacted that if I had found a cure for cancer and AIDS would that give me a fighting chance to get into your medical school.

The answer, most certainly, would have been a mere monotone "yes, I think that might give you a better chance, but it wouldn't be a guarantee."

If only my father was a doctor... "Now we're talking" they would say. (50% humor).

[Alastriss]

Big Baller - I would agree with what you said if you mentioned that a 33-35 MCAT would make the file competitive enough to get an interview. I have the impression that it is getting harder to get in. With a low end gpa you need a high end MCAT - the latter is not easy to obtain (less than 10% have that high an MCAT score). Moreover, even with an ultra strong MCAT (and gpa for that matter), it is next to impossible to get into a med school as an out-of-province student(OOP) - in case you have not looked into it, the requirements are much more difficult for OOP entry than for your in province school(s). This latter statement applies to entry into a US med school as a Canadian as well - from the discussions I have had with adcom members in the states.

 

I was tempted to ask any of the schools I contacted that if I had found a cure for cancer and AIDS would that give me a fighting chance to get into your medical school.

The answer, most certainly, would have been a mere monotone "yes, I think that might give you a better chance, but it wouldn't be a guarantee."

If only my father was a doctor... "Now we're talking" they would say. (50% humor).

 

If you want to go to any kind of med school, then your mcat just might fly. If you are wanting to go to a US or Canadian medical school, then you ought to reconsider rewriting the mcat. Now I know you said you worked pretty hard for a 28. It might be worthwhile to go back and really do an analysis of why you felt like you underperformed. Was it a lot of stupid mistakes? were you just not able to think through the problems? or was it just a matter of being weak in the subject matter. It could be test performance, Ive heard so many stories of people going from 28 to a 34-36 just by getting that first time test experience. This is something to think about.

 

 

The states is good in the sense that a high mcat can compensate for a low GPA. Mcat matters more, but that DOES NOT MEAN that it doesnt matter than much. It does - just not as much as te mcat. For the record tho, a 3.6-3.7 is a pretty good gpa. I just want you to make sure that ur AMCAS gpa is a 3.6-3.7, not ur cdn one (see the sticky).

 

You are right in a sense that its harder for us as cdns to get in like it is for OOPs, but the baseline level competitiveness is lower, it is easier to achieve those higher-than-average-standards. Getting into a US medical school as a cdn is easier than getting in as an OOP in canada. There is a reason why a lot of people use the US as a backup.

 

I dont think that having a parent doctor would be the solution to your problems either.

[Redlan]

Alastriss - You're right about parental pull not being the answer to getting into med school - that's why I put that comment as about a 50% joke. Perhaps half of the time acceptance is due to merit alone - that means great marks all around, the other half are 'known' to admissons commitees. This is not necessarily a negative thing - it is, often though not always, an implicit referal system that enables adcom members to have a personal understanding of the qualities of the candidate over a long period of time - the med school then knows more exactly who it is getting and what they are capable of. It does nothing to attempt to dismiss the reality that an old boys network is alive and kicking in medicine admissions today. I see admissions now as a cross between a meritocracy and an aristocracy - if two candidates were placed side by side with the same stats let us face it, the second, or 'known student' would win. Thus the student applying on merit alone, the 'unknown student', requires better grades.

Perhaps you're right about the MCAT - that performance was a problem for me (I think I could get my mark up higher as I was above a 30 on my practice tests), yet rewriting in the fall means applying for US schools for entry in two years from now - and potentially not getting in.

 

For Canada it might be worth it to write the MCAT again. Yet Canada for me means McGill... placing all bets on one school seems a little risky at my stage.

 

I'm honestly not too sure what to do - other than to apply out of North America and do the extra work to get back here.

[Kirby]

As a means to give hope - I have a 3.8 OMSAS GPA and only a 29O on my mcat. I received 3 interviews this year in Canada and was accepted to 2 irish schools. I did not apply to the states. The only other year I applied (2006) I was waitlisted at Toronto.

 

It's very possible to get in with lower stats. To be perfectly frank I think it has a lot to do with where you live in Canada and whether you qualify for IP or OOP. In my opinion it's really sad that this is the case, but in purely 'numbers' terms it is very true.

[Redlan]

I agree - It is a numbers game. I think often your file is not even considered if you don't reach a certain gpa/mcat - I mean for the schools that don't explicitly state that they have cutoffs - as they don't have the time to review 1000s of applications in detail. In the end, from what I see now, Canada is by far the most difficult country in the world to gain admission to medical school.

[medisforme]

don't forget that american schools place 2-3X more emphasis (at least) on mcat than canadian schools (with possible exception of U of M). A decent mcat (ie. >30) will go way farther in applying to american med schools than canadian med schools. whereas in canada, moderate gpa and high mcat = borderline. In the states moderate gpa and high mcat = a moderately good chance of matriculating.

[A-Stark]

Alastriss - You're right about parental pull not being the answer to getting into med school - that's why I put that comment as about a 50% joke. Perhaps half of the time acceptance is due to merit alone - that means great marks all around, the other half are 'known' to admissons commitees. This is not necessarily a negative thing - it is, often though not always, an implicit referal system that enables adcom members to have a personal understanding of the qualities of the candidate over a long period of time - the med school then knows more exactly who it is getting and what they are capable of. It does nothing to attempt to dismiss the reality that an old boys network is alive and kicking in medicine admissions today. I see admissions now as a cross between a meritocracy and an aristocracy - if two candidates were placed side by side with the same stats let us face it, the second, or 'known student' would win. Thus the student applying on merit alone, the 'unknown student', requires better grades.

 

I highly doubt parental "connections" matter much at all - my dad's being an alumnus of UofT *and* UofO didn't get me interviews at either, and I don't think the fact that he interned at Queen's was at all relevant to my getting one there. The number of applicants who have parental connections on an admissions committee is probably miniscule, and I think that the "dartboard" theory for interview invites is more plausible than such an "old boys network".

 

Anyway, rewrite the MCAT - it's a lot easier and more doable than going to Ireland or the Caribbean and then striving to get back there.

[Alastriss]

No parental connections do matter

I know a kid who's parents were head of ad comm of a pretty big school. He was a stellar applicant himself, but everyone that knows him knows he had a pretty big edge. I know of others who are being coached by their parents who are on the adcomm.

Besides those types of connections, i know of countless students whom I will have gained very prestigous jobs because Daddy is head of rad onc or gained job shadowing opportunities because their sister is an ER doc. They've built their resumes up and are able to outcompete others who have worked hard to get to where they are.

 

Thats how life happens to work

[lostintime]

Yeah, only 2 types of people get 1st year research positions:

1) highly motivated, creme of the crop (sp?) students

2) those with connections

 

Not many fall into 1), but many into 2).

 

Oh well, whatever, I take pride in getting my own research positions, even if they were in second year lol.

[Alastriss]

Yeah, only 2 types of people get 1st year research positions:

1) highly motivated, creme of the crop (sp?) students

2) those with connections

 

Not many fall into 1), but many into 2).

 

Oh well, whatever, I take pride in getting my own research positions, even if they were in second year lol.

 

I hear you lost, I fought hard for mine and I take great pride that mommy or daddy werent involved.

[Redlan]

What do you mean by first or second year research positions - I assume this means a good research position for your summer of the first year of your medicine degree?

 

Concerning a high MCAT for the sates, if you're American, sure, it's the gold ticket. However if you're Canadian I think it only gets you a maybe at the 'third tier schools' or whatever they call them. When I talk to the frankly speaking adcom members in the states there is a hefty dose of doubt in the tone of their voices - and the statistics in the MSAR book show even less hope - maybe 8 Canadians get in here and there, out of how many applicants I wonder - at least in the 100s.

 

Canadians are matching into Canada now from SABA and St. Georges - and the long way back (i.e., res in US) is also a possibility. Even SABA and St. Georges are stating that the stats and numbers of their candidates are raising so much that they are able to select the strong applicants - and these are now often getting competitive residencies in the US.

Things keep on changing...

[Alastriss]

What do you mean by first or second year research positions - I assume this means a good research position for your summer of the first year of your medicine degree?

 

Concerning a high MCAT for the sates, if you're American, sure, it's the gold ticket. However if you're Canadian I think it only gets you a maybe at the 'third tier schools' or whatever they call them. When I talk to the frankly speaking adcom members in the states there is a hefty dose of doubt in the tone of their voices - and the statistics in the MSAR book show even less hope - maybe 8 Canadians get in here and there, out of how many applicants I wonder - at least in the 100s.

 

Canadians are matching into Canada now from SABA and St. Georges - and the long way back (i.e., res in US) is also a possibility. Even SABA and St. Georges are stating that the stats and numbers of their candidates are raising so much that they are able to select the strong applicants - and these are now often getting competitive residencies in the US.

Things keep on changing...

 

Are you talking about a canadian with his mcat score or with any mcat score? If you are talking about a high mcat score then you're quite mistaken. I know of many myself who have been admitted into some top schools, and even State schools. We are definetely not confined to third tier schools.

Again, there's a reason why the US is a backup.

 

Are you looking at matriculants or applicants accepted? If I am not mistaken, I believe MSAR has number of matriculants enrolled, not accepted applicants..in which case that can't contribute to the idea that barely any canadians get in. Sure 8 may get in..but a lot more may be accepted. They might have declined their offer if they got into Canada - just something to consider.

[Redlan]

I'm thinking that with anything less that a 33 MCAT, a Canadian has little chance of getting into an American school - and even with that score I think it is still hard to get in. I gather this from the few adcom members I've spoken with at US schools (Wayne State, Rosaline Franklin, etc...)

 

You might be right about numbers matriculated vs. numbers offered a spot - but I would not think that these two numbers are that much different - maybe 30% more offered than matriculated - i.e. 12 offered admission out of 400, i.e ~3% - maybe 5%.

'Them ain't none good odds'... someone might say.

And I'm not much of gambler to begin with.

 

I'd be wrong if those 400 internationals were applying with low MCAT scores - but let's face it, they are not.

[a41]

I hear you lost, I fought hard for mine and I take great pride that mommy or daddy werent involved.

 

Hey, I got my research positions through an academic advisor that I had met with (didn't even know about NSERC etc. at that point). Connections don't have to be through your parents, and you probably have more connections than you think.