Has anyone considered applying for the Dental Officer Training Plan?

[dgundy9]

Hey all,

Just wondering if anyone has looked into the Canadian Forces DOTP as a means of supplementing education and covering the costs of living during dental school? If anyone has any experience with the application process or is currently in the program, any information would be great. Thanks

[CDAInterviewBook]

Several people in my class have enrolled. Personally I thought about it but decided against it as I think financially and personally it's not worth it. Let's look at the 2 different options:

 

#1 you join the DOTP

 

you get tuition and related expenses paid for ~100K

you get a salary of ~45K minus taxes (22% Federal, 15% Provincial) = 28.35K X4 = 113.4K

you have to serve 4 yrs @ ~ 130K minus taxes (29% Federal, 17.5% Provincial) = 70.2K X4 = 280.8K

 

8 year total = 394.2K

 

#2 you don't join the DOTP

your dental school debt is around 150K = -150

no salary = 0

when you come out you're making ~ 250K a yr w/ your own practice and you pay yourself a salary of 100K a year minus taxes (26% federal, 17.5 provincial) = 56.5K and keep 150K as business profit and pay the 16% small business tax on it (11% federal, 5% provincial) = 126

 

so you're making 182.5K yearly total X 4 = 730K

 

8 year total = 730-150 = 580K

 

So after 4 yrs things are a bit better after going into private practice, not to mention that you can own a practice sooner than if you join the forces.

 

The difference is totally in the taxes. Now if you want to take the 150K and invest it in different things real estate, stocks, bonds etc you can pay even less taxes until you sell it and will have to pay capital gain taxes on the amount. Not to mention you can adjust your annual salary the professional corp pays you. If you start paying off personal loans: mortgage, LOC etc you can decrease the amount of salary you earn and claim it under small business profit instead.

 

Not to mention you can make a spouse or your children share holders of the corporation, that way you can give them before tax dollars instead of after tax dollars so in effect you're giving them ~35% more than if you claimed it and gave it to them out of pocket.

 

Personally I'd just rather work for myself than work for someone else and I don't think I'd like the life that people in the forces live. Not to judge or be condescending as this life is totally cool for some people I'd just rather not choose it for myself.

 

_________________________________________________________________

Interview prep books available: cdainterviewbook@hotmail.com

[Mare]

Hey all,

Just wondering if anyone has looked into the Canadian Forces DOTP as a means of supplementing education and covering the costs of living during dental school? If anyone has any experience with the application process or is currently in the program, any information would be great. Thanks

 

I half considered it, but then I realized one of the things I love about dentistry is that I can be my own boss and do my own thing when I graduate. In the Forces, you do what you're told and you go where they send you.

 

You would be well compensated in the Forces, that's for sure, but I decided in the end it's just not for me.

[koft]

Not to mention you can make a spouse or your children share holders of the corporation, that way you can give them before tax dollars instead of after tax dollars so in effect you're giving them ~35% more than if you claimed it and gave it to them out of pocket.

 

Personally I'd just rather work for myself than work for someone else and I don't think I'd like the life that people in the forces live. Not to judge or be condescending as this life is totally cool for some people I'd just rather not choose it for myself.

 

You should consult your accountant on that part, b/c children under the age of 18 canNOT receive dividends from a professional corporation.

 

You can give dividend to your spouse and your parents but not your in-laws.

________

Iolite vaporizer

[CDAInterviewBook]

I think kids < 18 are allowed to receive dividends into a RESP or trust fund but I'm not an accountant just a wanna be.

[Krnuckfan]

Several people in my class have enrolled. Personally I thought about it but decided against it as I think financially and personally it's not worth it. Let's look at the 2 different options:

 

#1 you join the DOTP

 

you get tuition and related expenses paid for ~100K

you get a salary of ~45K minus taxes (22% Federal, 15% Provincial) = 28.35K X4 = 113.4K

you have to serve 4 yrs @ ~ 130K minus taxes (29% Federal, 17.5% Provincial) = 70.2K X4 = 280.8K

 

8 year total = 394.2K

 

#2 you don't join the DOTP

your dental school debt is around 150K = -150

no salary = 0

when you come out you're making ~ 250K a yr w/ your own practice and you pay yourself a salary of 100K a year minus taxes (26% federal, 17.5 provincial) = 56.5K and keep 150K as business profit and pay the 16% small business tax on it (11% federal, 5% provincial) = 126

 

so you're making 182.5K yearly total X 4 = 730K

 

8 year total = 730-150 = 580K

 

So after 4 yrs things are a bit better after going into private practice, not to mention that you can own a practice sooner than if you join the forces.

 

The difference is totally in the taxes. Now if you want to take the 150K and invest it in different things real estate, stocks, bonds etc you can pay even less taxes until you sell it and will have to pay capital gain taxes on the amount. Not to mention you can adjust your annual salary the professional corp pays you. If you start paying off personal loans: mortgage, LOC etc you can decrease the amount of salary you earn and claim it under small business profit instead.

 

Not to mention you can make a spouse or your children share holders of the corporation, that way you can give them before tax dollars instead of after tax dollars so in effect you're giving them ~35% more than if you claimed it and gave it to them out of pocket.

 

Personally I'd just rather work for myself than work for someone else and I don't think I'd like the life that people in the forces live. Not to judge or be condescending as this life is totally cool for some people I'd just rather not choose it for myself.

 

_________________________________________________________________

Interview prep books available: cdainterviewbook@hotmail.com

 

Right after graduating you can make 180k after taxes??

That seems way too high to me. Maybe I have been reading too many negative stories.

 

From what I understand, most fresh dental grads work as an associate for a couple years to pay off their loan, then take another huge loan and open their own practice, then make around 70-80k for a couple years, and finally they get into six figures after about 5 years when their practice is well established. Am I completely wrong?

 

BTW, your interview prep book was awesome.

Still working on building those competencies.

[DDS28]

Thanks CDA for the in-depth analysis, I've been wanting someone to explain

the DTOF vs non-DTOF for a while . However, i have some input . One must take in to consideration, that the 394.2k is an amount that you will surely have after an 8 year period; whereas the other scenario you discussed -- coming out of dental school and opening a clinic your FIRST year out, and having a sucessful clinic to earn you 250k -- is unlikely, i believe.

I think since one will be starting up a new clinic, it will take alot of effort to build up patients, and I don't think one would earn 250k from the first year of opening a private practice; however, 250k sounds reasonable for the 3 years following the opening of the clinic.

In my opinion, I would rather come out of dental school with a 100k in my pocket, enter the DTOF program which guarantees 4 years of work, right after you walk out of the grad ceremony, and that way you can learn more about the business sector of dentistry, and once I complete the 4 years, I will know all about opening a private clinic and will have the cash to do so.

I also don't believe I will be ready to own my own private clinic directly after leaving dental school, so DTOF is my option.

[CDAInterviewBook]

There's a lot of factors that you need to look at for opening your own practice. One of them is the location of the practice. In large cities practices that don't gross much sell for a ton as there is a strong desire for dentists to want to live in urban areas. So a practice grossing 600K might sell for 1-1.5X gross or 600-900K depending on what's included (leased equipment, building etc).

 

However in rural areas I know a ton of dentists just wanting to retire and for their patients to actually to be able to see a dentist after they retire so these practices sell for ~100K. Rural is a fairly loose term as well as in Sudbury and Ste Saint Marie are actually cities and have a really difficult time recruiting dentists as nobody wants to live in these areas.

 

Check out http://www.jimkasper.com or http://www.roicorp.com for an idea of practice opportunities. I am not nuts thinking that 250K is unrealistic as there are practices on there netting ~400K. Yes you need to get a hang of how to run a practice and make that much money but so what if you need to work 6 days a week for a year or 2 until you get it under control?

 

I doubt you'll learn more about the business aspect of dentistry working in a military setting than you would actually running your own clinic. It's a sort of immersion running your own clinic and having to learn the business aspect of dentistry and still the way dentistry is practiced in the military and in the private sector is totally different. Military dentists see like 8-10 patients a day max where a regular dentist would see that many before lunch. Since you're paid a salary then you can take your time which is cool.

 

On the military plus side you get a pretty sick pension and tons of paid time off. In the US there's a ton of girls applying to be military dentists anybody know why? Paid maternity leave. One of my buddies said a girl in his class had to serve 5 yrs and had ~ 2.5 of them off as mat leave cause she had 3 kids in the 5 yrs.

 

@ Krnuckfan thanks for the kind words buddy. I've been working on a version for potential med students as well as they've finally seen the light and changed the interview to gel with the dentistry interview. We'll see how it all works out.

[DDS28]

Hey again,

 

I believe what CDA said was interesting and I do agree with a couple of points, so I've come up with this conclusion. If you are planning on purchasing a clinic that already has a large number of active patients (atleast 500, allowed 1400 i believe), then you should follow that path, as this will earn you the 250k/year. However, If you don't plan on doing that, I believe the DTOF is the next best option.

 

Best Regards

[koft]

YOU WILL NOT make 250k a year straight out of school. It takes years to build a practise.

 

That depends... Have friends who are fairly new grad making that much after expenses, pre-tax

 

in big city, unlikely you will make that though, and it varies person from person.

________

Honda gl650

[Ad2223]

Alright. Glad to see the DOTP get some exposure on here. I had started a thread awhile back but nobody seemed to get on the bandwagon. Ok, I have contacted the military and found out as much as I can for now. So, here are the stats:

 

1) Only 12 spots across Canada each year. Therefore, it is competitive.

 

2) There is an actual interview process. If you apply for this year (Fall 2009), you will not know whether you are a Dental Officer or not until March 2010 approx. This is because there are interviews and several "rounds of selection committees". This is what I was told at the recruiting office. You will be reimbursed for everything, but it might be kind of hard.

 

3) You must write the Military Aptitude Test, and this mark is a competitive mark in the selection process, along with the interview. I have challenged it without joining the military or even applying for the DOTP. (I am applying to the U of S and so don't find out until mid June.)

 

4) IT IS NOT 4 YEARS any longer. You basically owe them 2 months service for every month they put you through school and so it is more like 6 YEARS after holidays and everything. Just thought I would emphasize that misconception. It has recently changed.

 

If you are thinking of doing it merely for the money, find another way. You will probably end up hating it. I am just giving the things that I learned and has greatly affected my decision. But if you are flexible and looking for adventure before settling into a practice. It may be for you. Also, from what I can gather talking to friends in the military and dealing with them...they aren't the hard asses that they have been made out to be and can be flexible and accommodating.

 

More than anything though, I would like to hear from some true Dental Officers!

[Ad2223]

Also, to the disagreement on what a dentist makes out of school...don't count on making 250k right out of school because "not everybody gets to be an astronaut when they grow up" lol.

 

You would need to walk into a place with a client base already there unless you hold a monopoly on dental care (rural area in dire need). So more than likely you will have to buy a fully established practice for over a million. I've been told that businesses are usually valued at 4x their profit for the year. So if your business makes 250k a year, then the practice is ideally worth a mil (unless there's a sale). And then you will need enough capital for payroll, outstanding supplies, and proper cashflow. Companies have a month to pay between companies usually, and I would think that insurance companies would be no different. Most of my info comes out of other businesses, and I'm assuming that Dentistry isn't much different, though I may be wrong. So you will need some financial backing (ie: investors). I doubt the banks want to throw more money your way and so you will have to meet some businessmen.

 

I would say if you're willing to work more than 40 hours/week (more to 60) in a higher paying region (ie: Alberta) you will probably be able to reach 200k. But it's not going to be easy since you are still relatively new at the procedures and so you won't have the speed even in seeing patients.

 

It's difficult to know what a self employed dentist makes because like any business, what they make to the CRA and what they take home are entirely different numbers. You can put your spouse on the payroll and live off the business to a certain extent (food, vehicles, etc). Ah, the joys of being self-employed.