Why the US?

[CAS]

So, I've been doing quite a bit of research on international programs the last 5-6 months or so. After probably a few dozen hours of reading through threads, online guides, school web sites, financial web sites, and healthcare systems, I find myself being moved away from the US more and more. I've applied moderately conservatively to the US (12 schools) and to 4 schools in Canada. I doubt anything will come of Canada (probably not even an interview) and maybe 2-3 interviews from the US, but my apps were very late, so who knows.

 

Anyway, I've been considering other options based on this. I don't want to go through another application cycle. This thing is hell - the waiting, the money, the time/blood/sweat/tears (figuratively), the research, the emailing/phoning/time. And, the debt from the states is VERY scary. Then there's the question of visas and matches. Not only that, but most of the lower tier schools don't have particularly nice locations, with plenty of pollution/crime/expensive room & board. So, I'm curious why more people don't consider other options? Such as Australia?

 

The more I've read about Australia, the more interested I've become. They have a dual-tier healthcare system which is far more appealing than the US and, in my opinion at least, superior in some forms than Canada. The lifestyle for doctors is relatively better (based on reading threads of medical graduates, so take that with a grain of salt), and the tuition costs are far far far less. Plus, you can apply to top 50/100 schools (ANU, Monash, Melbourne, Queensland) and still have a very decent chance of getting in - much less stress. Then, there's the visa thing, which seems to be much easier to handle in Australia - albeit, that may change in the future, but for now, the outlook is pretty nice. PR/citizenship isn't that hard to get and practicing afterwards is relatively easy. Furthermore, although we would be IMGs when trying to match in Canada, the matches seem pretty ok (~30%). I dunno though, I don't think I'd even come back to Canada.

 

Besides the distance, I'm curious why one would choose the US over Australia? Just wanted to see what your opinions are on this?

[med.student]

yeah true. there are so many universities with so much to offer. some are more cheaper and then there is personal preferences.

 

the main is to learn to educate and to work. if any other place satisfy a person's needs. thats great.

[srindogg@hotmail.com]

Becase US medical school = guaranteed residency match in North America

 

Australian medical school = possible residency in Australia and possible residency in North America with no guarantees of matching anywhere

 

PS. According to people, matching in Australia for foreigners is going to be MUCH harder in the comming years...

[schnauzr]

Studying medicine in Australia isn't cheap at all.

For example, I just looked up ANU and it's $40800 Australian (=$32000CAD) for Bachelor in medicine (graduate entry program).

It's slightly cheaper than the US, but I would just think that a US degree will open a lot more doors in the future whether in Canada or anywhere really.

 

Edit: Oh, wait, the currency, yes. US$40000 = $50000CAD at this point. Hmm, yeah, it's definitely up to the needs of each individual.

[schnauzr]

The UK is another great option.

Many schools now have graduate-entry programs, like the ones in Canada and the US.

And because of the currency situation, it's actually cheaper than the options in the US.

For example, Cambridge graduate-entry program tuition is about $24000CAD for the pre-clinical years and $44000CAD for the clinical years.

I'm not quite sure how competitive it is though (I didn't apply - although I was tempted to).

You need to take a test (like the MCAT) called UKCAT, which compared to the MCAT, isn't that bad apparently.

It's another great option - just throwing it out there.

[Alastriss]

staking 4 years of your life, a hell of a lot of money, and being that far away from home is not worth that ~30% chance. Hell I wouldnt take it if it were 80-90% chance. For the opportunity cost you pay, even that 10% chance of failure is scary.

[CAS]

staking 4 years of your life, a hell of a lot of money, and being that far away from home is not worth that ~30% chance. Hell I wouldnt take it if it were 80-90% chance. For the opportunity cost you pay, even that 10% chance of failure is scary.

 

you could always... not come back to Canada

 

also, didn't you apply to the states? how is that a 100% guarantee?

[Alastriss]

you could always... not come back to Canada

 

also, didn't you apply to the states? how is that a 100% guarantee?

 

It isn't, but its damn close given your options for matching in both US and canada.

Its not even 100% in canada!

 

I don't think I can't not eventually live in canada, my home is here, and i do love it here "Oh..canada".

 

I'm such a B!tch for meds, sometimes I wish I never discovered this profession and fell in love with it given all the stress it brings to me. I quickly take back what I say though.

[CAS]

I understand where you're coming from but my pov is that I can be happy anywhere so long as I love what I'm doing. If Canada doesn't want me, so be it, I will contribute my mental goodwill elsewhere.

 

I don't understand how one can feel patriotic to a country that so ruthlessly casts aside some of it's best and brightest only to let other countries to provide them the bridge to it. Perfectly good places too, like the USA, Australia and Ireland.

[CAS]

Studying medicine in Australia isn't cheap at all.

For example, I just looked up ANU and it's $40800 Australian (=$32000CAD) for Bachelor in medicine (graduate entry program).

It's slightly cheaper than the US, but I would just think that a US degree will open a lot more doors in the future whether in Canada or anywhere really.

 

Edit: Oh, wait, the currency, yes. US$40000 = $50000CAD at this point. Hmm, yeah, it's definitely up to the needs of each individual.

 

What needs? I guess family or distance, but eighty grand worth?

[Alastriss]

wow it just hit me. We are no longer at parity. So now instead of the regular 45k tuition or so, its more lke 54. Well F*ck me sideways.

[CAS]

Nice big kick in the face reAlization eh? :/

[Kam]

i'd actually have to agree with CAS.... since the whole currency thing became an issue i really dont think i can afford the US anymore (edit: by afford i mean, get loans for)... even if u factor currency for UK its still cheaper!!

[schnauzr]

I wish I had known more about the financial aspect of attending a US med school prior to the application process.

It wouldn't have changed much (my school choices would be slightly different), but I'm really not enjoying this element of surprise at the tuition amount.

 

That being said, there are many Canadian students who are studying medicine in the US, which means it's very possible to pay the massive tuition fee,

probably through two ways - generous parents (well-off enough to provide some financial support) or scholarships.

Of course, some people will not have either option to come up with the money - and they probably will not attend a US school whether accepted or not.

If you really can't find any way to get the money, applying itself is really a waste of time and a lot of money down the drain.

I've seen a few people who say they got into a US school but declined the acceptance because they couldn't afford it.

I mean, why did they apply in the first place then?

 

My point is you really have to assess your financial resources.

If you do have it, there's no point in worrying,

and if you don't have it, well, then there are other options.

[Alastriss]

I just think its getting ridiculous. I don't want to put myself in a position where I am asking my parents for money. I think its completely unethical on my part to put myself in a position where I have no choice but to attend an expensive US school and ask them to fork up the coin.

[Madz25]

Australia = MBBS

US = MD

 

After doing 4 yrs of undergrad, I damn well wanted an MD! I know that either way you're a doctor but still. If I wanted to go abroad, then I would've gone after high school and not have done 4 yrs of undergrad.

[CAS]

Australia = MBBS

US = MD

 

After doing 4 yrs of undergrad, I damn well wanted an MD! I know that either way you're a doctor but still. If I wanted to go abroad, then I would've gone after high school and not have done 4 yrs of undergrad.

 

uhhhhh, they're the same and equivalent degrees.

If you're pursuing meds for something as trivial as the title on your degree, I think you need to reconsider if meds is best for you.

[Alastriss]

uhhhhh, they're the same and equivalent degrees.

If you're pursuing meds for something as trivial as the title on your degree, I think you need to reconsider if meds is best for you.

 

they are the same and equivalent but not by name, you aer right. He said that he wants an MD after 4 years of undergrad, and that wasn't the sole reason why he chose an MD over MBBS (because MD in CANADA!)

[n00b]

I just think its getting ridiculous. I don't want to put myself in a position where I am asking my parents for money. I think its completely unethical on my part to put myself in a position where I have no choice but to attend an expensive US school and ask them to fork up the coin.

 

It's not the ideal situation but I don't understand why it's ridiculous. It's not like we are deciding our acceptances.

[Alastriss]

It's not the ideal situation but I don't understand why it's ridiculous. It's not like we are deciding our acceptances.

 

Well I think it varies, but to me, but just looking at wayne state's approximation of around 80k turns out to be a little over 100,000, and that is only for first year. 100,000 x 4 = 400,000 debt which is accruing interest compounded annualy and you can't start paying it off significantly until after residency.

 

That debt to me, at least, is pretty insane. other schools are close to 70-some, which come out to being around the same.

[n00b]

Fair enough, but then why did you apply?

[Alastriss]

Fair enough, but then why did you apply?

 

I didn't say I wouldn't do it, I said it's ridiculous and unideal. Yet I am willing to go through that much debt to become a doc, but as a last resort if canada flops.

 

Besides, the dollar was not like this way back in july/august, yet I did anticipate it going up

[CAS]

So again, why the USA and twice the debt? Just so you have a slightly better chance to come back to a country that spat on your hopes and dreams over arbitrary criteria that are out of your control (like where you went to high school - I completely disagree with regional meds admissions)?

 

Honestly, I think it's canada's loss. I still don't understand how it's come to canadians using other countries as meds backups, how has it come to this? Especially considering the stats some of you guys hold. If this were the USA or any other nation, I'd imagine you'd be in with scholarships alastriss

[KennethToronto]

Making sure you can pay for a US education is the first thing any potential applicant should think about.

 

Yes, going to the US is more expensive but if you apply to the right schools and land scholarships, then the costs are more on par with what it would cost in Canada (or sometimes even less).

 

I wish I had known more about the financial aspect of attending a US med school prior to the application process.

It wouldn't have changed much (my school choices would be slightly different), but I'm really not enjoying this element of surprise at the tuition amount.

 

That being said, there are many Canadian students who are studying medicine in the US, which means it's very possible to pay the massive tuition fee,

probably through two ways - generous parents (well-off enough to provide some financial support) or scholarships.

Of course, some people will not have either option to come up with the money - and they probably will not attend a US school whether accepted or not.

If you really can't find any way to get the money, applying itself is really a waste of time and a lot of money down the drain.

I've seen a few people who say they got into a US school but declined the acceptance because they couldn't afford it.

I mean, why did they apply in the first place then?

 

My point is you really have to assess your financial resources.

If you do have it, there's no point in worrying,

and if you don't have it, well, then there are other options.

[Alastriss]

So again, why the USA and twice the debt? Just so you have a slightly better chance to come back to a country that spat on your hopes and dreams over arbitrary criteria that are out of your control (like where you went to high school - I completely disagree with regional meds admissions)?

 

Honestly, I think it's canada's loss. I still don't understand how it's come to canadians using other countries as meds backups, how has it come to this? Especially considering the stats some of you guys hold. If this were the USA or any other nation, I'd imagine you'd be in with scholarships alastriss

 

I appreciate the sentiment CAS, I think that its even sadder for those of us who are really qualified. I can't say anything regarding Schnauzr because he hasn't had his run yet with Canadian schools, but Retsage pretty much is living proof that this system is flawed. If you're out there buddy I feel for ya.

 

I bolded one word, because it is in fact the opposite that should be in its place. Coming from an LCME accredited school, your chances are VASTLY superior. You will meet very little resistance coming back to canada if you decide to finish residency in the US, and the US match rates are considerably better than IMGs. Check out some carms stats. Cept last years stats may throw you off - don't let them, it seems from SDN that the few students who applied to carms ranked super high choices and suicided for carms. Thats why all 7 unmatched never came back in the second iteration - they match in the US.

 

Before that, you have I believe a 14/16 match rate, with the 2 unmatched went on to match in the 2nd iteration in ortho surg. Compare this to IMGs which is closer to 50%. Canada is realizing that its getting desperate, and its stringent policies are not doing the country a favor. The first to benefit will be US grads, followed by IMGs.

 

One thing is certain and I'm glad you mentioned it. I always thought "I am going to keep trying in canada, I would never go to the carrib right after I get rejected 1 or 2 times because I won't give up"

 

It's not about giving up. Its about feeling unwanted. People have bled for their applications and even though they are completely qualified, end up with a generic rejection letter like everyone else.

 

 

KT - we all applied to the right schools, but

1) the right schools need to send us invites/acceptances

2) we need to get those merit scholarships (ie case) which are pretty tough!

 

Yet I agree with you that the financial thing is something to consider seriously. We all considered it we applied I am pretty sure, we just don WANT to pay that much if we don't have to in the end , which makes our Back-up a 'less-than-favorable' alternative than it could otherwise be if tuition was cheaper.