Why was UWO's average last year so high?!?!

[mrsweasley]

the median percentage.. if an A+ is 90-100, then you get 95% for an A+.

 

I think that's kind of unfair for people who do get percentage grades... for example let's say someone got 91% in a class which would have been an A+ at another school = 95% on the converted scale. That gives people with letter grades an advantage most of the time. They should convert percentage grades into medians as well to be really fair. But I don't think they do .

 

PS. I just calculated my 2 year avg converting all my marks to the medians (80-84 = 82, 85-89 = 87, 90-100 = 95) and my avg increased by 0.6%. That's a lot! Oh well... life isn't always fair. I better get back to studying instead of wasting my time calculating my average lol...

[lostintime]

There's problems with this sytem imo because they're basically telling people to go and take bird courses so they can get their 95+'s. There are bird courses in every university and that 95 is NOT equivalent to a 95 in another course. This is the technique I used in high school to boost my average by taking 7 courses instead of the 6 recommended and I took accounting and got like 99% but it was so dead easy compared to say algebra/geometry, where I did get 95+ but I had to work like 10x harder to get similar results. That helped buffer the worse marks I had in other subjects like chemistry, which was also a hardcore subject. But at least I took accounting, some people took stuff like 'travel and tourism' where it was an utter joke. And there are joke courses too in university.

 

But meh I guess there's no perfect solution to anything.

[eebee]

There's problems with this sytem imo because they're basically telling people to go and take bird courses so they can get their 95+'s. There are bird courses in every university and that 95 is NOT equivalent to a 95 in another course. This is the technique I used in high school to boost my average by taking 7 courses instead of the 6 recommended and I took accounting and got like 99% but it was so dead easy compared to say algebra/geometry, where I did get 95+ but I had to work like 10x harder to get similar results. That helped buffer the worse marks I had in other subjects like chemistry, which was also a hardcore subject. But at least I took accounting, some people took stuff like 'travel and tourism' where it was an utter joke. And there are joke courses too in university.

 

But meh I guess there's no perfect solution to anything.

But that all ends in dental shool...when everyone is taking the exact same courses! YAY!

[Slick911]

Well if you do a little math you can find out getting an 85% still seems quite low. Even if all students who got in from Year 2/3 had +92% averages that would still only offset the average by 0.53% meaning an 88% average would be the mean for students with degrees (bonus points). With that being said, 6 students with Masters and PhD's entered the program and and if they received more bonus points then HBSc students that would offset the average again in the opposite direction placing undergraduate averages back around 88.3%.

 

 

Regardless with how you look at it, +88% will make you competitve.

 

Hopefully that helps!

[Contach]

I might phone Trish tomorrow to ask about that.

 

Any update from Trish?

[Fraises]

Well if you do a little math you can find out getting an 85% still seems quite low. Even if all students who got in from Year 2/3 had +92% averages that would still only offset the average by 0.53% meaning an 88% average would be the mean for students with degrees (bonus points). With that being said, 6 students with Masters and PhD's entered the program and and if they received more bonus points then HBSc students that would offset the average again in the opposite direction placing undergraduate averages back around 88.3%.

 

 

Regardless with how you look at it, +88% will make you competitve.

 

Hopefully that helps!

 

nice work!

[eebee]

Well if you do a little math you can find out getting an 85% still seems quite low. Even if all students who got in from Year 2/3 had +92% averages that would still only offset the average by 0.53% meaning an 88% average would be the mean for students with degrees (bonus points). With that being said, 6 students with Masters and PhD's entered the program and and if they received more bonus points then HBSc students that would offset the average again in the opposite direction placing undergraduate averages back around 88.3%.

 

 

Regardless with how you look at it, +88% will make you competitve.

 

Hopefully that helps!

which brings me back to my initially posted question...eek!

[Kittyp]

I don't understand why average 88 is such a big surprise. There are just 2 dental schools in Ontario so its expected to be that high. Rather I believe in a year or two it should go above 90 because there are lots of students getting in 90's so they will make the application pool more competitive.

[freebird]

I don't understand why average 88 is such a big surprise. There are just 2 dental schools in Ontario so its expected to be that high. Rather I believe in a year or two it should go above 90 because there are lots of students getting in 90's so they will make the application pool more competitive.

This is a pretty random statement.

[Contach]

I don't understand why average 88 is such a big surprise. There are just 2 dental schools in Ontario so its expected to be that high. Rather I believe in a year or two it should go above 90 because there are lots of students getting in 90's so they will make the application pool more competitive.

 

well, there are only 2 veterinary schools in all of Canada.. by your logic their average should be higher than dental schools... this is untrue.

[eebee]

I don't understand why average 88 is such a big surprise. There are just 2 dental schools in Ontario so its expected to be that high. Rather I believe in a year or two it should go above 90 because there are lots of students getting in 90's so they will make the application pool more competitive.

It's such a surprise because in the past it was consistently ~85%, and then out of nowhere (seemingly) it jumped 4% percent.

[supafield]

I don't understand why average 88 is such a big surprise. There are just 2 dental schools in Ontario so its expected to be that high. Rather I believe in a year or two it should go above 90 because there are lots of students getting in 90's so they will make the application pool more competitive.

 

If you believe the only thing that will differentiate a good dentist is another few % at the highest end of the grade spectrum.

[Kittyp]

well, there are only 2 veterinary schools in all of Canada.. by your logic their average should be higher than dental schools... this is untrue.

 

 

But most of the high graders prefer dental school to vet school, I am just talking about trend and individual choices may differ.

[Kittyp]

If you believe the only thing that will differentiate a good dentist is another few % at the highest end of the grade spectrum.

 

 

Yes I do believe so because grades are the most important objective finding that can differentiate someone.

[Kittyp]

It's such a surprise because in the past it was consistently ~85%, and then out of nowhere (seemingly) it jumped 4% percent.

 

 

I don't understand why it was so low earlier but the way students are getting above 90 now 85 seems to be quite low.

[Freddy]

I don't understand why it was so low earlier but the way students are getting above 90 now 85 seems to be quite low.

 

At those figures I would imagine quite a bit of grade inflation. The DAT adjusts slightly for this. Such is life, work the system or the system works you it seems.

[Contach]

At those figures I would imagine quite a bit of grade inflation. The DAT adjusts slightly for this. Such is life, work the system or the system works you it seems.

 

Sure, it could be grade inflation. But at the same time, maybe what you, or your school, thinks deserves an A grade is different from what my school feels.

If that is the case, then no one is grade inflating, it's just a matter of a poor system because grades are so ambiguous anyways. What does an A+ even mean? There is no systematic marking scheme that all professors or all schools follow, and until that happens, no one can say anyone is grade inflating.

[Contach]

But most of the high graders prefer dental school to vet school, I am just talking about trend and individual choices may differ.

 

Oh yeah? tell this to a vet student.

 

yes. That is my point... You can't say that "because there are only 2 dental schools in Ontario the grades required to get in must be high" (you said this before) because there's so much more involved, like what type of students are applying, individual choices, trends.

[Contach]

Yes I do believe so because grades are the most important objective finding that can differentiate someone.

 

I hope this is sarcasm...

 

As for the claim that "an extra 4% doesn't tell us who will become a better dentist".. True. I agree and I understand your point.

 

However, I don't think schools are accepting us based on the criteria that they want the best dentists. I feel that schools are investing money into us (the government is investing money into us) - at UBC they told us it costs $115000 a year per dental student to train them, a lot of that money comes from Government subsidy and other (private/public) grants, and students pay the rest through tuition. By selecting those with the highest GPA/best DAT scores they are trying to figure out who will have the highest likeliness of completing dental school and thus giving a return on their investment (a graduated student is a positive outcome for school, as each of the 4 years they are in school, the school receives that government subsidy money). And, even if you may not agree, studies have shown to be the best known predictor, to date, of success in dental school. Many studies have found this. Here is one of those:

 

DAT and GPA are valid predictors of first year didactic performance (Sandow et al, 2002)

 

Sandow PL, Jones AC, Peeh CW, Courts FJ, Watson RE. Correlation of admission criteria with dental school performance and attrition. J Dent Educ 2002; 66:385–92

 

I say to date, because I feel in the near future they will find more evaluation criterion. For example, you may know that Dalhousie and UofT are doing personality assessment indexies. Dalhousie says they are doing it for research purposes.... hint hint.

- Smithers et al. (2004), and Chamberlain et al. (2005), show adding a measure of personality to admissions program is beneficial

 

Smithers S, Catano VM, Cunningham DP. What predicts performance in Canadian dental schools? J Dent Educ 2004; 68:598–613.

 

Chamberlain TC, Catano VM, Cunningham DP. Personality as a predictor of professional behavior in dental school: comparisons with dental practitioners. J Dent Educ 2005; 69:1222–37

[eebee]

I don't understand why it was so low earlier but the way students are getting above 90 now 85 seems to be quite low.

I dont think you are quite understanding my question. No worries. In the past few years, its been ~85%. And contrary to your previous statement, no, I dont believe a student who gets 90% will necessarily be a better dentist than a student who gets 85%. That's not to say that I would be happy going to a dentist who got 70's all throughout dental school, but I think that a difference between 5% on a report card does not reflect a Dentist's manual dexterity (which, I'm assuming is much more important at the end of the day, than whether or not he/she can identify the structures of the 20 amino acids etc...)

 

Going back to the high average issue, 85 may seem quite low to you, but that doesn't negate the fact that that's what it was. Whether you think its low or not, you can't really argue stone cold facts.

 

Also, going back to your previous statement about marks being the be all and end all, you are forgetting the importance of the interview. Many individuals have lower marks, but their interview skills are what set them apart from the other students at the low end of the spectrum. SO, that ties into your second statement which questions the low average.

[Kittyp]

I dont think you are quite understanding my question. No worries. In the past few years, its been ~85%. And contrary to your previous statement, no, I dont believe a student who gets 90% will necessarily be a better dentist than a student who gets 85%. That's not to say that I would be happy going to a dentist who got 70's all throughout dental school, but I think that a difference between 5% on a report card does not reflect a Dentist's manual dexterity (which, I'm assuming is much more important at the end of the day, than whether or not he/she can identify the structures of the 20 amino acids etc...)

 

Going back to the high average issue, 85 may seem quite low to you, but that doesn't negate the fact that that's what it was. Whether you think its low or not, you can't really argue stone cold facts.

 

Also, going back to your previous statement about marks being the be all and end all, you are forgetting the importance of the interview. Many individuals have lower marks, but their interview skills are what set them apart from the other students at the low end of the spectrum. SO, that ties into your second statement which questions the low average.

 

 

 

I agree that the difference of 5% is not a big deal and manual dexterity is more important but how can we assume that someone who is very serious from day one will not do well on interview or later as a dentist . All I mean is right now since the schools don't have any other criteria besides grades or DAT score that can show them clearly how well a student is going to do atleast in the dental school (though there maybe something like personality test available which can prove more useful in the future) then they will definitely prefer someone with 93 rather than 83. And with my previous statement I meant maybe the average was 85 earlier because there may not be a lot of people in 90's then.

[Freddy]

Sure, it could be grade inflation. But at the same time, maybe what you, or your school, thinks deserves an A grade is different from what my school feels.

If that is the case, then no one is grade inflating, it's just a matter of a poor system because grades are so ambiguous anyways. What does an A+ even mean? There is no systematic marking scheme that all professors or all schools follow, and until that happens, no one can say anyone is grade inflating.

 

Well I mean certain programs are obvious. I dont think you can compare something like engineering at a good university to a misc. social science or history degree at a university known for giving higher marks for less work. One is obviously more demanding than the other. If anyone disputes that they're likely just trying to make themselves feel better about their degree and achievements.

 

What bothers me is history at school X might get much higher grades for less work than history at school Y. However, like you said there is no standard system. Which, in my opinion, make some of these 90%+ averages a little ridiculous. If they are combined with a high DAT/MCAT then the student has sucessfully jumped through all the hoops.

 

I'd be interesting to see some statistics on undergrad degrees from different universities, GPAs and DAT/MCAT scores.

[Kittyp]

What bothers me is history at school X might get much higher grades for less work than history at school Y. However, like you said there is no standard system. Which, in my opinion, make some of these 90%+ averages a little ridiculous. If they are combined with a high DAT/MCAT then the student has sucessfully jumped through all the hoops.

 

I'd be interesting to see some statistics on undergrad degrees from different universities, GPAs and DAT/MCAT scores.

 

I agree with you but thats the worst part of this application system. I have read on many US Dental schools websites that they do consider the difficulty level of the courses done. In that way they are more appropriate in choosing someone. Also they give more weight to DAT which is better comparison standard at national level.

[daryn]

I'm looking from the other side of the fence, so my perspective is a bit different, and I hope I don't sound heavy handed. But you know, you can argue the merits/downfalls of various systems until the cows come home and will never reach a conclusion that satisfies everybody. So, try to concentrate on how you yourself can become a better applicant and/or person instead.

 

Good luck all.