Advice from current graduate students in medicine

[Guest Julie]

I have realized that with my current set of marks/life experiences I am unlikey to be admitted to U of T's medical programme. I am thinking of going to graduate school with the aim of getting some publications, improve my grades, ect. ect.

 

I understand that graduate students are given separate review and the GPA for graduate students matriculating is somewhat lower (at least that's what the U of T office publishes) than those of the undergraduate applicants. Is this really true? That is, do the majority of admitted graduate students have significantly lower GPAs than undergrads or are there just some "outlayers". It seems that most of the graduate students that I know in medicine had stellar GPAs but for one reason or another were just not admitted as an undergraduate student.

 

Any sort of advice would be appreciated.

 

Later,

Julie

[Guest BennyG]

Hi Julie,

 

I think graduate students are allowed to have lower GPAs, but I'm not sure what GPA cut-off would be really be considered competitive, nor do I have any stats on the minimum entering GPA for grad students at U of T (does anyone else reading this know?). I decided to respond to your query so that I could share my experience with you and the other readers.

 

I'm applying to med school this year for the first time. I finished a M.Sc. at U of T in 2000 and have been working in research at one of the TO hospitals since then. When I finished undergrad, I had good grades (OMSAS GPA 3.78) but not the knockout 3.9+ GPA that undergrads seem to require for admission. My extracirriculars/volunteering were good although, again, they were not extraordinary compared to other applicants. It didn't matter to me anyway because I wasn't sure that I wanted to do medicine and I had been bitten by the "science bug", so graduate school was my first choice and I got in no problem.

 

When I got to grad school, I totally hated it. My supervisor was a shmuck, a number of my co-workers were emotionally retarded lab geeks, and the project was scientifically unworkable and doomed to fail. While I was in grad school, I did meet several people who were rejected from med school and were in grad school to do research, get publications and take advantage of lower GPA cut-offs.

 

My advice to you is that unless you want to do grad school because you love research, you will be miserable and may have nothing to show for your efforts. Depending on your project and/or supervisor and/or department, your graduate career may spin out lots of publications or may produce none. Don't forget that the lower GPA requirement comes with a trade-off: they want to see research productivity. This is crucial for Ph.D.s but also applies to M.Sc. students, albeit to a lesser degree. If you have nothing to show for the time you were out of undergrad, your chances for admission may not necessarily improve.

 

This is, in fact, what happened to me. Aside from my thesis itself and an abstract at a local conference, I produced nothing from my M.Sc., although my course marks were good. Fortunately, my new research job, in less time than it took me to get my M.Sc., has produced substantial published material and also given me a lot of opportunity to work with patients. It has also convinced me that meds is truly what I want. But I consider myself extremely lucky in this regard, and hopefully the mysterious Forces of admissions will look favourably upon me despite my mediocre graduate record. Perhaps I am in a state of delusion, we'll see.

 

So Julie, I suggest that you consider your options carefully. Most of the wannabe-med grad students that I know did not achieve their goal of entering med school. If you don't love research, you will find the long hours of grinding away in a lab very painful. This will be especially true if your project is encountering technical difficulties or if your supervisor is unsupportive. Another thing to consider is that, for current or former grad students, U of T requires at least one letter of reference from either your supervisor or member of your graduate committee. I can tell you that a lot of scientists consider med school as some form of high treason and are not happy when their students ditch graduate training to become doctors. The reasons for this warrant another one of my rants but I won't bore you with that today. But anyway, if you do go to grad school, you must be honest with your potential supervisor and tell them that meds is your primary goal. Some people may disagree with me here, arguing that the supervisor will then not take your training and career seriously from that point onwards. I argue that while this may be true, it is better to find out your supervisor's opinions early and establish an honest relationship. He/she will not be pleased if you come to him/her one month before the reference deadline and tell them that you were never interested in becoming a scientist or had any intention of carrying on your project but hey, can you write me a reference to med school? If you think I'm being paranoid, let me tell you that my ex-supervisor is strongly against his students going to med school (i.e. don't expect a good ref from him) and that one of my committee members actually said that if any student asks him for a med school reference he refuses without exception. Fortunately for me, the other member of my committee both likes me and doesn't possess this silly derision for MDs and med school.

 

Anyway, sorry about the rant. But I feel strongly about this point, as I had some pretty crappy personal experience with it. I'm just suggesting that you consider all the consequences in advance. Two, three, four or even more years is a long time to be doing something you don't really like.

 

Best of luck!

[Guest BennyG]

P.S. How did that emoticon beside my GPA get into my post? It was supposed to be an eight.

[Guest ThugJaan]

Someone in our class has around a 3.3 or so (I believe, someoone told me this so it is heresay). I believe the absoulte minimum is 3.0, but you will probably need a little higher than that.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Thanks for the great reply BennyG. I've disabled the emoticons for my post, but if you write a 8) it will come out as your emoticon.

 

For the original poster, you may want to poke through these forums looking for posts from Kirsteen. She's put up a number of thoughtful messages regarding graduate admissions into medical school.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest George]

Julie,

 

I can tell you from my experience most graduate students in my class, and for the other years that I know about, had a solid application (meaning high GPA, publications, life experiences). In many ways I think it maybe somewhat more difficult for graduate applicants as they are expected to have published and maintained a high academic standing. Yes, there appear to be a group of students, whether they be graduate or undergraduate applicants, who may not have the "high" marks, but they do have something else in their application that makes them stand out (ad coms love this).

 

By no means am I saying this to discourage you and your application to medicine. By all means apply, and continue to further develop your skills such that your application becomes more appealing.

 

Good luck!

[Guest wondering and wondering]

For those who got in what did you have that made you so desirable please help the rest of us trolls who have been involved in lots of interesting activities, leadership, volunteer etc 3.8+ GPA 36 MCAT's and still can't get in. Is it because we are cursed?

 

How did everyone differentiate themselves?

 

Debbie

[Guest Mark]

I'm also an applicant for this year's medicine class, and not actually in medical school yet (but hopefully soon!)

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the opionions expressed by BennyG. IF you are interested in research, then pursue it by all means. I went through an almost identical situation while doing my masters at the University of Manitoba. My supervisor was completely indifferent, my research work insignificant and under his supervision certain to fail, and I am emerging three (!) years later with only my thesis, an abstract and poster presentation at a local conference. I hated every single minute of being in graduate school, and regard the last three years as one of the biggest mistakes of my life. In addition, my grades there (two B+) ruined my 3.92 GPA undergraduate marks. In addition, graduate supervisors generally do not take kindly to students wanting to leave for a "better" career in medicine. There is no guarantee you can improve your GPA through Grad School, and you might really hate the nature of the work there and the people around you and be miserable for at least two years. You might emerge two years later without having built contacts to people who would help you in your future career, and might have nothing to show for your time there. In addition, in my opinion, the UofT is not worth getting into if it means having to spend the next couple of years in research - an easire route would be to apply to schools that emphasize the MCAT over GPA, and in the mean time to enter an academic program that would allow you to demonstrate your skills and training in patient care. And if it really means so much to you to get into medicine (regardless where), the University of Manitoba counts GPA for less than 10% of the total assessment.

 

Anyway, I might have digressed from the topic. You might not agree with everything I said, and I might be wrong in some points. As far as I am concerned, I truly believe Grad School ruined any chance I ever had of even being interviewed at the UofT.

[Guest BennyG]

Dear Mark,

 

I am totally with you, brother. While I don't believe that "misery loves company", it is sometimes good to hear from others that have been through similar situations. I'm sorry that your graduate school experience was so awful. I've been there, and I wouldn't wish that sort of humiliating and degrading experience on my worst enemy.

 

I wish you the best of luck in your medical school admission endeavours. Your undergrad GPA is phenomenal and, with a good MCAT score and application package, you should be well-positioned for acceptance. A lot of schools don't even ask for your graduate grades. So you may never get accepted to UofT? O.K., there are still lots of good schools out there. Go for it, man!!

 

 

As I've said before, and as Mark also stated in his post, going to graduate school to "do time" in order to accumulate research experience and/or offset a poor undergraduate GPA is a bad choice. Regardless of how much mental gymnastics a person does to justify and rationalize their decision, it is essentially a big gamble. Some people win, some people lose. Just like actual gambling, many more people lose than win. In addition, remember that admission to graduate school is competitive, and, in some departments in Toronto, is extremely competitive. When I applied to one of these departments, it was common knowledge that Bs, or even B+s, would be a hinderance. I'll even bet that the undergraduate GPA of my entering graduate class was not THAT much lower than the first-year medical school class.

 

Therefore, if your undergraduate GPA is very poor, you may find yourself shut out of more prestigious (i.e. better science, better and more publications for your med school application) departments. Also, considering the competitive nature of graduate school admissions, I sometimes feel that it can be arrogant and callous for a person to occupy a space in graduate school which may shut out someone who actually wants to be a scientist. Sure, if you are genuinely interested in research, or are not sure of the career you want, then go for it by all means. But if it is just for meds, then consider how you would feel as a rejected med school applicant if you found out someone was in med school whose heart was somewhere else. As med school applicants, we are no better, special, or more important than other students. Medical school admissions should not be "by any means necessary."

 

In my admittedly biased opinion, the best thing to do, post-undergrad, to improve med school application chances is to write (or re-write) a really awesome MCAT and find some interesting employment or volunteer activities that you can write about on your autobiographical submissions. Not everybody at so-called research-oriented schools like UofT has a JAMA or NEJM paper before admission. As for being interested in research, or even "loving" research, as I've heard many a keen young undergrad tell me, I would suggest that summer studentships or lab volunteering is not the same as when your academic survival, not to mention your bread and butter, depends on your research productivity. Only then can you say that you "love" research, and even those that do freely admit the difficulties and stresses of a research career. They don't let it get them down, however, because of the pure intellectual challenge and exhilaration of discovery.

 

Best of luck!

[Guest maxell]

BennyG: congratulations on your admission.

 

Would you mind sharing how you went about to make up for your graudate degree? Hospital, position, job type? If you don't want to post here, my email address is ROVERMARK@HOTMAIL.COM

 

I am in a similar position that you were once you graduated - no publications, etc. I credit my failure in getting in this year because of my graduate degree and the bad reference letter from my supervisor who is one of the worst people I have met in my life (he actually wrote that "I lack communication skills"). I desparately need to make up for all the failures of gradaute school and establish good contacts for this years application.

 

If you can give me advice, I would be very grateful.

[Guest Champ]

Dear Maxell,

 

A poor letter of reference will instantly destroy your medical admission chances. I had a colleague with 2-doctorates (yes..one from Canada and one from the UK)..he was rejected from Meds.. His supervisor wrote." I question XXXX's desire to study medicine!!". Comments like those and the one that you got may definitely impair you chances.

 

One suggestion, try and carefully sound out your referees before asking. I asked to read my refs before they were sent in.

 

Good luck,

 

 

champ

[Guest maxell]

Thanks for your comments. My experience with my former supervisor and with those in my graduate department exposed me to the reality of just how careful one has to be when associating /working with others. It is my aim now to "make up" for all the failures of graduate school by starting anew and wiping out the past.

 

I am on the waiting-list at the UofT for this year, but I do think that it is due to such a poor reference letter that diminished my chances in the first place, and will ultimately make me not among the preferred candidates who will get in this year. It is particularly frustrating for me since I worked so hard in my undergrad (GPA >3.9 Honors).

[Guest BennyG]

Dear Maxell,

 

Thank you for your congrats. I would be happy to provide you with any advice that I can and I will e-mail you shortly. I intend to register with this board soon and I'll post my e-mail address there for anyone else who wishes to chat off-board.

 

Just briefly, however, I would like to say that I think your chances of admission are very good. Your GPA is excellent and you were wait-listed with, as you describe, a zero publication record and a poor letter of reference. This indicates to me that if you change references and maybe "spice" up your application with a publication or an extra-cirricular that you like (and you probably don't even need that), you should be accepted. If I was on an admissions committee and saw "maxell lacks communcation skills", I would be strongly inclined to not offer an interview, so this means that the rest of your application is very strong. But we can chat more off-line.

 

Respectfully, I both agree and disagree with Champ. True, one must be very careful in choosing references and I think it is perfectly reasonable to be blunt with your referees as to how they feel about you and give them the opportunity to turn you down.

 

On the other hand, some people have no spine at all and have no problem telling you that they will write a good reference and instead write a killer. To combat this, it is best to think hard and evaluate the personal character of your refs-to-be rather than ask to read the references as Champ suggests. I agree that this works in some cases. The other possibility, however, is that you will just get a watery and bland letter that, while not saying anything damaging, is filled with generalities and cliches because the author knows that you will be reading it. If he/she likes you, the confidential vs. non-confidential letters will be similar. If he/she does not like you (professionally or personally) and also lacks the courage to discuss your faults like a mature adult, you will get the letter I just described. You should also consider the possibility that asking to read a letter that should be confidential may offend a potentially good referee who likes you - they might think that you don't trust them to write a good letter.

 

Good luck - I'll e-mail you later today.

 

BennyG