BS/MD Programs

[Viggy]

hey everyone. I am a high school student in Windsor. The other day I was just on the Web, looking up random stuff and I learned that there are lots of BS/MD programs in the US. I only new about the one at Wayne State, since it's right across the border and if your on their site its easy to find about it. However, i never knew about all these other programs.

 

Some of these programs are accelerated 6 or 7 year programs that guarantee you med school acceptance if you meet the basic requirements (nothing ridiculous, just really low requirements usually so you are guaranteed). http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section3/degree2.cfm?data=yes&program=bsmd

 

-So, what are the Pros and Cons of these programs?

-When should people be applying if you are a Canadian resident?

 

and whatever else you know would be appreciated. I will be applying next year, so there's no rush or anything.(u have to apply in like november or earlier....really early lol) i just wanted to make a thread with open discussions on this topic.

 

***this thread wouldn't really mean much to current undergrad students as you apply right out of high school, but if you know anything pls. post

[Lactic Folly]

Check that the program accepts Canadians first.. some do, some don't.

[keith_015]

You would be absolutely ridiculous to attempt to go this route.

 

Consider:

1) Cost. As an international student, your tuition would likely be $20-30k USD per year for your undergrad. For your medical degree depending where you go could be anywhere from $40k (possibly) to $65k+ for Wayne. Considering that inflation and time will increase prices, after a minimum of 3yrs undergrad you are already looking down on $60k+ or for four years $80k+. Med school is expensive in the US as is and you shouldn't make it harder to fund your undergrad. Don't expect much help from OSAP. This option is really for internationals ONLY if they grow money trees. Consider too that the dollar fluctuates so if your loans were originally in CDN and converted, you could be much further down the hole in the future.

 

2) Testing: Schools will expect you to write either the ACT or SAT and you must score very high. You would have to look up information on that, and studying for either could severely screw up your high school studies as they test you on everything.

 

3) Competition: Being a non-US resident has already put you at a large disadvantage when you apply as a lot of schools consider residency (In state, US citizen/perm res.) very important. These programs admit very few students, likely 10 or less. Competition will be extremely high, so if you expect to apply you better have a GPA of 90%+ (~3.85+/4.0), a VERY good ACT/SAT, VERY solid clinical volunteering experience (They want to know that you are absolutely aware of what you are getting yourself into, ie. no turning back) as well as extra-curriculars.

 

4) Your future: going to school in the US MAY limit your residency choices. As well you are essentially "stuck" there for the next number of years you do the combined program so if you hate the school/city/area too bad.

 

5) No Guarantees: For example, for U Kentucky "High school students interested in the B.S./M.D. Accelerated Course of Study must declare Biology as their major and apply to both the University of Kentucky and to the B.S./M.D. Accelerated Course of Study. In their second year, students must take the MCAT and then apply to the UK College of Medicine in the summer following year two for admission into the UK College of Medicine after year three. While there is no guarantee of admission in the UK Medical School, successful completion of the curriculum, exceptional performance on the MCAT, demonstrated maturity, and continued commitment to the medical field will make students very competitive applicants for admission."

You still have to do the MCAT and you still aren't guaranteed admission.

 

Take note that a handful of schools don't accept internationals for regular admission so I wouldn't think they would admit you for a BS/MD either.

 

See also: http://stason.org/TULARC/health/medical-education/3-10-Should-I-enroll-in-a-combined-BS-MD-program.html

 

My Advice: Relax kid. Take a more traditional route and don't get too ahead of yourself. Doing this is definitely not worth it. I know you want to be assured a spot, but the honest reality is that everybody on this board and likely in the US would've wanted early admission if they could. I've seen some of your other posts and it seems like you are already grasping at straws trying to find "easy" programs. Like actually being in medicine, you will have to put considerable effort into getting there instead of trying to take the easy road or half-ass it.

[Viggy]

hey, thanks lactic folly and keith for you inputs.

 

cost isn't that big of an issue, at least at Wayne State, since I get in-state tuition for being from Windsor. Plus, my Dad works in the US and gets US pay, so loans and stuff would be in USD. But I definately see what you mean, because as a canadian, i won't be eligible for scholarships (like wayne states MedStart BS/MD program offers full-ride scholarships for the students if you are a US resident) and at other programs i won't be eligible for in-state tuition.

however, i should get my US citizenship in the next few years as my family applied like 7 years ago or longer. so, by the time i get to med school, i'll at least get out-of state tuition. but ur point is 100% valid. that's why i am mainly focusing on Wayne State's MedStart program for the financial reasons.

I am preparing for the SAT already(i won't be writing the ACT) and i am waiting on my PSAT scores (should get them by end of this month). so far, it hasn't interfered with school, as i just review a bit on weekends and in some spare time. my GPA, should be 4.0 if converted properly.

 

I just have some questions based on what Keith said:

1. Why does going to the US limit residency choices? I always figured going to the US would be a PLUS, since there are so many hospitals, etc. so getting into the residency of your choice would be easier. (like getting into competitive residencies like Otho., Anest., and Plastics would be easier, b/c there are so many places to get matched at)

 

2. I currently volunteer at a retirement home and may ask a local doctor if I could shadow him during the summer or something. But, how do these kids in the US get all this volunteer experience, and how can I? like they state that they have shadowed physicians, done research projects, helped in ER sector of a hospital, etc. How can these places let mere gr.11s do this (you apply to these programs in like november, so most of this volunteering is done in gr.11....and they ahve like 100s of hours in such environments)

***like i won't do jacksh*t for ontario universities, since i won't need to, so this shadowing physicians would be only for the sake of these BS/MD programs and other US universities that might value such experience for regular undergrad programs

 

thanks

[c17h]

hey, thanks lactic folly and keith for you inputs.

 

cost isn't that big of an issue, at least at Wayne State, since I get in-state tuition for being from Windsor. Plus, my Dad works in the US and gets US pay, so loans and stuff would be in USD. But I definately see what you mean, because as a canadian, i won't be eligible for scholarships (like wayne states MedStart BS/MD program offers full-ride scholarships for the students if you are a US resident) and at other programs i won't be eligible for in-state tuition.

however, i should get my US citizenship in the next few years as my family applied like 7 years ago or longer. so, by the time i get to med school, i'll at least get out-of state tuition. but ur point is 100% valid. that's why i am mainly focusing on Wayne State's MedStart program for the financial reasons.

I am preparing for the SAT already(i won't be writing the ACT) and i am waiting on my PSAT scores (should get them by end of this month). so far, it hasn't interfered with school, as i just review a bit on weekends and in some spare time. my GPA, should be 4.0 if converted properly.

 

I just have some questions based on what Keith said:

1. Why does going to the US limit residency choices? I always figured going to the US would be a PLUS, since there are so many hospitals, etc. so getting into the residency of your choice would be easier. (like getting into competitive residencies like Otho., Anest., and Plastics would be easier, b/c there are so many places to get matched at)

 

2. I currently volunteer at a retirement home and may ask a local doctor if I could shadow him during the summer or something. But, how do these kids in the US get all this volunteer experience, and how can I? like they state that they have shadowed physicians, done research projects, helped in ER sector of a hospital, etc. How can these places let mere gr.11s do this (you apply to these programs in like november, so most of this volunteering is done in gr.11....and they ahve like 100s of hours in such environments)

***like i won't do jacksh*t for ontario universities, since i won't need to, so this shadowing physicians would be only for the sake of these BS/MD programs and other US universities that might value such experience for regular undergrad programs

 

thanks

 

1. I didn't know that being from Windsor makes you considered as in state? That's kind of cool, but I can't verify if it's true.

 

2. As helpful as loans are, do you really want to put your family in such serious debt?

 

With all that being said, if you can get into a 7 or 8 year program, and your family is willing to support you (socially and financially), then by all means, I encourage you to pursue it.

 

In regards to what Keith said:

 

1. Canadians are limited by the types of residencies we can apply to because we need a work visa (either J1 or H1 to work in the US)...only certain residency programs provide such visas. So although there are more residency programs, we can only apply to certain programs (just like we can only apply to certain medical schools).

 

However, if you are anticipating having US citizenship by the time you are in medical school, this should not affect you. However, I know people who have waited 10+ years to get their citizenship...so...still something to consider.

 

2. Shadowing is common in the US, whereas it's not common in Canada (I think it may be illegal in Ontario? Someone correct me if I'm wrong). However, you can still get volunteer experience - go to a local hospital, nursing home, etc.

 

My final question to you is...how do you know you want to be a doctor if a) you have never volunteered or worked in a medical setting? and you haven't even started learning about biology at an undergrad level? Tons of people change their mind... I definitely encourage it, but just be cautious!

[Viggy]

1. I didn't know that being from Windsor makes you considered as in state? That's kind of cool, but I can't verify if it's true.

 

2. As helpful as loans are, do you really want to put your family in such serious debt?

 

With all that being said, if you can get into a 7 or 8 year program, and your family is willing to support you (socially and financially), then by all means, I encourage you to pursue it.

 

In regards to what Keith said:

 

1. Canadians are limited by the types of residencies we can apply to because we need a work visa (either J1 or H1 to work in the US)...only certain residency programs provide such visas. So although there are more residency programs, we can only apply to certain programs (just like we can only apply to certain medical schools).

 

However, if you are anticipating having US citizenship by the time you are in medical school, this should not affect you. However, I know people who have waited 10+ years to get their citizenship...so...still something to consider.

 

2. Shadowing is common in the US, whereas it's not common in Canada (I think it may be illegal in Ontario? Someone correct me if I'm wrong). However, you can still get volunteer experience - go to a local hospital, nursing home, etc.

 

My final question to you is...how do you know you want to be a doctor if a) you have never volunteered or worked in a medical setting? and you haven't even started learning about biology at an undergrad level? Tons of people change their mind... I definitely encourage it, but just be cautious!

 

Hey ch17, yea wayne state offer in-state tuition to all ontario high school students. i am positive about this. they always come to my high school promoting their "Good Neighbour Policy" lmao

 

Yea, hopefully I can get my US citizenship before med school. It has been 8 years or so I believe, so I hope the process is close to being over. I can't see it taking more than 4 more years, that's pretty ridiculous...hopefully it doesn't happen.

 

I am going to look up info. online about shadowing in Ontario. hopefully it is legal, because I know a doctor that would be very willing to let me shadow him, he is so nice and my family kind of knows him.

 

I have gotten medical related experience. I have volunteered at a retirement home...i have 20 hours so far, but haven't gone regularly....i expect to get around 75-100 hours when its all said and done by the end of the summer...long time to go so i expect over 100hrs.

 

-i have 20 hours at the hospital, but it wasn't really medical related stuff. i will call them and find out what I can do there. man, these US kids say they like volunteer in ER sector and help with ridiculous stuff....i can't believe hospitals let these kids do this stuff...some of them on this other forum say they are in like gr.10!!! i hope they are just sitting in a chair watching lol.

 

doesn't help that my school doesn't have advanced level classes or anything. i hope that playing on the high school baseball team and travel baseball will be looked at as being impressive since i balance with mid-90s

[sky_blue2000]

I had to check up the good neighbor policy, because they just seemed too good and I had never heard of it before...

 

BUT, unfortunately, that doesn't apply to the MD program.

 

"Good Neighbor Non-Resident Tuition Waivers: Residents of Fulton, Lucas, Ottawa and Williams counties in Ohio, or residents of Ontario, Canada who enroll at Wayne State University in eligible academic programs are assessed resident tuition rates. Academic programs which are excluded from this benefit are the School of Medicine MD program and the Pharmacy doctoral program in the Eugene Applebaum College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences."

 

from http://reg.wayne.edu/pdf-tuition/t_f_regs_f09.pdf

 

Check it out! Too bad! It would have been nice

[c17h]

Hey ch17, yea wayne state offer in-state tuition to all ontario high school students. i am positive about this. they always come to my high school promoting their "Good Neighbour Policy" lmao

 

Yea, hopefully I can get my US citizenship before med school. It has been 8 years or so I believe, so I hope the process is close to being over. I can't see it taking more than 4 more years, that's pretty ridiculous...hopefully it doesn't happen.

 

I am going to look up info. online about shadowing in Ontario. hopefully it is legal, because I know a doctor that would be very willing to let me shadow him, he is so nice and my family kind of knows him.

 

I have gotten medical related experience. I have volunteered at a retirement home...i have 20 hours so far, but haven't gone regularly....i expect to get around 75-100 hours when its all said and done by the end of the summer...long time to go so i expect over 100hrs.

 

-i have 20 hours at the hospital, but it wasn't really medical related stuff. i will call them and find out what I can do there.***these US kids say they like volunteer in ER sector and help with ridiculous stuff....i can't believe hospitals let these kids do this stuff...some of them on this other forum say they are in like gr.10!!! i hope they are just sitting in a chair watching lol.

 

doesn't help that my school doesn't have advanced level classes or anything. i hope that playing on the high school baseball team and travel baseball will be looked at as being impressive since i balance with mid-90s lol. these kids from the US just volunteer, study, eat, sleep. in my opinion well rounded means academics, volunteer, ECs, personality, and such, not school, volunteer.....yea i'm pissed lol

 

Best of luck with your applications!! It sounds like you're on the right track. If you keep up the grades and extracurriculars throughout undergrad, you'll have a great chance of getting in.

 

In terms of the in-state tuition thing, I don't think Wayne State gives instate tuition to Ontario students. I went through my email and found this letter from Wayne this letter (since I applied this year):

 

Due to your citizenship/visa status, you will not be eligible for any financial aid from United States or State of Michigan sources should you be offered an admission to Wayne State University School of Medicine.

 

Canadian citizens will be considered non-residents for both admissions and tuition purposes. The Good Neighbor policy at WSU does not apply to medical school. Current tuition (2009) for non-residents is $59,275 per year. This is subject to change by the Board of Governors without notice. You will also be responsible for obtaining any necessary immigration paperwork.

 

It will be necessary for international applicants to submit a statement of financial support. This statement is a requirement of the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) and is needed to substantiate that you are able to financially support yourself for one year. The total amount of expenses to attend Wayne State University School of Medicine for one year is: $81,537 (USD) which includes Tuition and Fees, Living Expenses, Transportation, Books, and Miscellaneous Expenses.

 

This financial statement must be issued by a bank or other financial institution and must be sent directly to the School of Medicine Office of Admissions from that institution. If this documentation is not received, the INS will not issue a student visa to you. As an international student, you are required to have a student visa in order to attend school in the United States. This documentation needs to be in the Office of Admissions at the School of Medicine no later than April 30, 2010.

 

If you have any questions regarding this procedure, please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

Please sign the reverse of this form and return it with your secondary application.

 

 

 

Silas Norman, Jr., M.D.

 

Assistant Dean for Admissions

 

Wayne State University School of Medicine

 

You may be an exception if you're applying through the 7-8 year program...but I don't think it's likely...perhaps something to look into?

[Viggy]

oh yea, not for med school. only for undergrad they will give you in-state. sorry for the confusion. their "Good Neighbour Policy" is only for undergrad.

 

but since the MedStart Program is an 8-yr. BS/MD thing, I will get in-state for the undergrad years....like the BS part of it. after that, i will play the 57K....unless, i get my US citizenship by then. and my dad works in michigan and such, so maybe we can pull some strings to get in-state for med school. but, if i get my citizenship, at least i'll be guaranteed out-of-state at the worst.

 

But, this MedStart program, you apply in high school, and you are guaranteed into their med school if you meet some requirements (like a 3.3 gpa and 30 mcat i believe...so not bad). The only drawback is that as a canadian citizen, I am not eligible for their full-ride scholarship for the undergrad years...but i will get in-state due to the good neighbour policy at least....so i'll be looking at around 20K USD for undergrad at the most.

 

My ECs/volunteering suck though, compared to other kids applying. like they have about 15 seats for around 300 applicants or so. very competitive to say the least. and these kids have, no joke, like 100+hours shadowing, 100+ retirement home, 100+ hours hospital, 150+ hours research lab, along with all their AP courses, and all those ridiculous US ECs they have (like quiz bowl? wtf is that lol)

[a41]

MedStart only accepts US Citizens/residents IIRC.

 

* MedStart applicants must be citizens or permanent residents of the United States. Our specialized pre-professional programs are open to all students, but financial aid only is available to U.S. citizens. Non-Michigan residents must pay out-of-state tuition and fees. Students who are not citizens of the United States are not eligible for scholarships offered during Scholars Day events at Wayne State University

 

I had to check up the good neighbor policy, because they just seemed too good and I had never heard of it before...

 

BUT, unfortunately, that doesn't apply to the MD program.

 

"Good Neighbor Non-Resident Tuition Waivers: Residents of Fulton, Lucas, Ottawa and Williams counties in Ohio, or residents of Ontario, Canada who enroll at Wayne State University in eligible academic programs are assessed resident tuition rates. Academic programs which are excluded from this benefit are the School of Medicine MD program and the Pharmacy doctoral program in the Eugene Applebaum College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences."

 

We've been working to get this changed....but it seems pretty impossible.

[CdnatWayne]

a41, do you know anyone in your class that has been able to successfully get reclassified as In-State?

[keith_015]

+1 to c17h's first comments. Explained my position well.

 

In terms of volunteering in hospitals ie ER's, it is not impossible in Canada. I volunteered at a hospital in Kitchener in an ER during and after undergrad; however, they had a program set up for high school students to volunteer for the summer only. I don't think that you are limited from volunteering in an hospital at times other than the summer either as long as you are 16. You just have to go through the rigorous screening processes etc. To volunteer, just check the hospital of interest's webpage for the volunteer link and get yourself more information. As for nursing homes, you don't get the genuine "medical" experience of that of a hospital in that you don't really see doctor's doing rounds, and you aren't interacting with people who likely aren't patients everyday. Hospitals present a constant degree of stress which you should expose yourself to thoroughly before considering being a doctor.

 

Just a quick q. Are you still trying to get actual citizenship or permanent residency?

[Viggy]

* MedStart applicants must be citizens or permanent residents of the United States. Our specialized pre-professional programs are open to all students, but financial aid only is available to U.S. citizens. Non-Michigan residents must pay out-of-state tuition and fees. Students who are not citizens of the United States are not eligible for scholarships offered during Scholars Day events at Wayne State University

What does IIRC mean? And does this mean I can't even bother applying to the MedStart program? damn, that would suck

 

And at Keith, permanent resident. my dad is trying to get his green card and then we can be residents.

 

a quick question. to those of you who have applied/been accepted and such to US universities could you just state whether you went to undergrad in the US or not, and where you went and what program? I just want to get an idea of what future med students from Canada have done to go to US universities. thanks, i know its a little off topic.....

 

 

what I don;t understand, is that the people that get accepted to these 'guaranteed med school' programs, are already the students that would get into med school anyways, correct? plus, they will do great on the MCAT anyways, as most have tremendous SAT scores and great scores on other standardized tests in the past. So, why do they seek the 'guaranteed admission'? Like, myself included, just because i'm guaranteed med school doesn't mean i won't prepare hard for the MCAT. so, wats the point, unless you go to a program that saves you a year or so or you don't have to write the MCAT at all, i'm seeing limited advantages.....

[C2U2]

It's because everyone thinks the same way you do.

 

* MedStart applicants must be citizens or permanent residents of the United States. Our specialized pre-professional programs are open to all students, but financial aid only is available to U.S. citizens. Non-Michigan residents must pay out-of-state tuition and fees. Students who are not citizens of the United States are not eligible for scholarships offered during Scholars Day events at Wayne State University

What does IIRC mean? And does this mean I can't even bother applying to the MedStart program? damn, that would suck

 

And at Keith, permanent resident. my dad is trying to get his green card and then we can be residents.

 

a quick question. to those of you who have applied/been accepted and such to US universities could you just state whether you went to undergrad in the US or not, and where you went and what program? I just want to get an idea of what future med students from Canada have done to go to US universities. thanks, i know its a little off topic.....

 

 

what I don;t understand, is that the people that get accepted to these 'guaranteed med school' programs, are already the students that would get into med school anyways, correct? plus, they will do great on the MCAT anyways, as most have tremendous SAT scores and great scores on other standardized tests in the past. So, why do they seek the 'guaranteed admission'? Like, myself included, just because i'm guaranteed med school doesn't mean i won't prepare hard for the MCAT. so, wats the point, unless you go to a program that saves you a year or so or you don't have to write the MCAT at all, i'm seeing limited advantages.....

[keith_015]

 

a quick question. to those of you who have applied/been accepted and such to US universities could you just state whether you went to undergrad in the US or not, and where you went and what program? I just want to get an idea of what future med students from Canada have done to go to US universities. thanks, i know its a little off topic.....

 

 

what I don;t understand, is that the people that get accepted to these 'guaranteed med school' programs, are already the students that would get into med school anyways, correct? plus, they will do great on the MCAT anyways, as most have tremendous SAT scores and great scores on other standardized tests in the past. So, why do they seek the 'guaranteed admission'? Like, myself included, just because i'm guaranteed med school doesn't mean i won't prepare hard for the MCAT. so, wats the point, unless you go to a program that saves you a year or so or you don't have to write the MCAT at all, i'm seeing limited advantages.....

 

Schools don't care if you went to Canada or the US as long as you did your undergrad in either country.

 

Something you may not understand yet is that 90%+ students in high school could end up dropping down to 70% or even less yet in their university career fairly quickly. Everybody knows a friend of person of which that happened to. Just because you did well in high school and have done a bunch of stuff doesn't mean you would always be one of the "students that would get into med school anyways" if you apply traditionally.

 

Some of the schools with BS/MD still make you maintain certain GPAs in undergrad and still make you do the MCAT to test your actual academic skill. The only thing that is really eliminated is the interview.

[Viggy]

aight, thanks guys. i got all the info. i could want from this thread. thanks, and i think i'll just stick to an ontario university as i don't expect to have my green card before application time comes around next yr....so i won't even be able to apply to most, if not all, of these programs, and i'd rather go to university in ontario anyways

[sydney123]

I know the university of winnipeg in canada has great academic programs, my sister went there. Its worth a try

http://www.uwinnipeg.ca