Can you practise in Australia if you go to med school and don't want to come to canad

[sgt.pepper]

edit. go to med school in Australia and practice there instead of coming back to canada

[nosuperman]

From what I've gleaned in email correspondences and interviews for Australian med schools, its nearly impossible to find a residency as an international applicant.

 

They're having a massive surplus of students (with more on the way with the new programs opening up) relative to residence positions, and those are given preferentially to domestic students.

 

http://forum.pagingdr.net/ is a good place to start if you haven't checked there already.

 

Edit: To make sure I understood the question - I was referring to if you did med school in Australia

[redshifteffect]

From what I've gleaned in email correspondences and interviews for Australian med schools, its nearly impossible to find a residency as an international applicant.

 

They're having a massive surplus of students (with more on the way with the new programs opening up) relative to residence positions, and those are given preferentially to domestic students.

 

http://forum.pagingdr.net/ is a good place to start if you haven't checked there already.

 

Edit: To make sure I understood the question - I was referring to if you did med school in Australia

 

I'm currently working in the Australian system and am doing exactly that. However you should be aware that in the future jobs will be harder to get because of the larger number of locals that will be graduating. However it won't be impossible.

 

Have a read of this post, which basically outlines what you will need to do to get a job in the future in Australia:

 

http://www.medinoz.com/2010/01/21/the-tsunami-is-coming/

 

Also PM me if you need anymore advice.

[leviathan]

Wow so Australia is seeming like a bad deal overall....mediocre chances in either Canada or Australia.

[future_doc]

unless you marry an Australian living in ozzieland!

[redshifteffect]

unless you marry an Australian living in ozzieland!

 

I doubt that it will be as easy as it once was, but it certainly won't be impossible either.

[sgt.pepper]

From what I've gleaned in email correspondences and interviews for Australian med schools, its nearly impossible to find a residency as an international applicant.

 

They're having a massive surplus of students (with more on the way with the new programs opening up) relative to residence positions, and those are given preferentially to domestic students.

 

http://forum.pagingdr.net/ is a good place to start if you haven't checked there already.

 

Edit: To make sure I understood the question - I was referring to if you did med school in Australia

 

Ya that's what i meant. Just wondering not gonna apply to med school for another 2 years

[spoudaios]

Don't they discuss about these issues during the presentation that they (representative of Aussie Med schools in select cities in Canada)?

 

If not, then it seems like false promises. After completing med school in Australia, then what?

 

Apply residency, of course. If not able to find one, then what?

[leviathan]

I wonder what the match rate is for Australians applying for US residencies with only having a few electives or even no rotations in that country? Is there a decent chance matching anywhere now?

[spoudaios]

I wonder what the match rate is for Australians applying for US residencies with only having a few electives or even no rotations in that country? Is there a decent chance matching anywhere now?

 

Hi leviathan, please check your pm. I have some questions. Thanks

[nosuperman]

Ok so I've been accepted to 2 Aussie schools so far (and another one informally) and I've had a decent opportunity to grill the interviewers (or admissions contacts at UQ since they don't interview) at 5 of the schools (Flinders, UQ, Deakin, Melbourne and Sydney) and here's generally what I asked them;

 

"If I distinguish myself, graduate close to the top of my class, excel in the clinical setting and work hard to gain experience in the hospitals... if I stand out beyond all expectations - will I have the opportunity to follow up on any interests I have in non-family-medicine-related fields?" I don't care where it is but if I happen to like surgery, cardiology, obgyn, etc - would I have a chance at following up on it in Canada, US or Australia?

 

I'd present them with the CaRMS numbers (basically IMGs shouldn't bet on getting something outside of family) as well the US school's treating us as doubly international - non-Americans graduating from non-American schools - and then we'd discuss the Aussie med student 'tsunami'...

 

Nobody has replied that there's even a decent chance of that happening. They say theres always a possibility that doors may open but in general you shouldn't plan on staying in Australia and I think the stats speak for themselves for coming back to Canada for anything other than FM/IM. Everyone seems to acknowledge that currently Canadians can get internships in Australia but they say they have no idea if it will be possible in 4 years due to some politics preventing actual numbers from being released.

 

Edit: LOL actually Future Doc I did ask about marrying an Aussie and they said it wouldn't help

[spoudaios]

Wow, very scary.

 

I don't know if I really want to go anywhere after knowing this. If I stay in BC, I will still work full time or part time (I am 32 now) and apply to UBC while improving my non-academics which may take up to 5 years.

 

What about everyone else? Any back up plans?

 

 

Ok so I've been accepted to 2 Aussie schools so far (and another one informally) and I've had a decent opportunity to grill the interviewers (or admissions contacts at UQ since they don't interview) at 5 of the schools (Flinders, UQ, Deakin, Melbourne and Sydney) and here's generally what I asked them;

 

"If I distinguish myself, graduate close to the top of my class, excel in the clinical setting and work hard to gain experience in the hospitals... if I stand out beyond all expectations - will I have the opportunity to follow up on any interests I have in non-family-medicine-related fields?" I don't care where it is but if I happen to like surgery, cardiology, obgyn, etc - would I have a chance at following up on it in Canada, US or Australia?

 

I'd present them with the CaRMS numbers (basically IMGs shouldn't bet on getting something outside of family) as well the US school's treating us as doubly international - non-Americans graduating from non-American schools - and then we'd discuss the Aussie med student 'tsunami'...

 

Nobody has replied that there's even a decent chance of that happening. They say theres always a possibility that doors may open but in general you shouldn't plan on staying in Australia and I think the stats speak for themselves for coming back to Canada for anything other than FM/IM. Everyone seems to acknowledge that currently Canadians can get internships in Australia but they say they have no idea if it will be possible in 4 years due to some politics preventing actual numbers from being released.

 

Edit: LOL actually Future Doc I did ask about marrying an Aussie and they said it wouldn't help

[leviathan]

Ok so I've been accepted to 2 Aussie schools so far (and another one informally) and I've had a decent opportunity to grill the interviewers (or admissions contacts at UQ since they don't interview) at 5 of the schools (Flinders, UQ, Deakin, Melbourne and Sydney) and here's generally what I asked them;

 

"If I distinguish myself, graduate close to the top of my class, excel in the clinical setting and work hard to gain experience in the hospitals... if I stand out beyond all expectations - will I have the opportunity to follow up on any interests I have in non-family-medicine-related fields?" I don't care where it is but if I happen to like surgery, cardiology, obgyn, etc - would I have a chance at following up on it in Canada, US or Australia?

 

I'd present them with the CaRMS numbers (basically IMGs shouldn't bet on getting something outside of family) as well the US school's treating us as doubly international - non-Americans graduating from non-American schools - and then we'd discuss the Aussie med student 'tsunami'...

 

Nobody has replied that there's even a decent chance of that happening. They say theres always a possibility that doors may open but in general you shouldn't plan on staying in Australia and I think the stats speak for themselves for coming back to Canada for anything other than FM/IM. Everyone seems to acknowledge that currently Canadians can get internships in Australia but they say they have no idea if it will be possible in 4 years due to some politics preventing actual numbers from being released.

 

Edit: LOL actually Future Doc I did ask about marrying an Aussie and they said it wouldn't help

 

If this was 4 years ago I would say that going to Australia is a better option than the Caribbean, as long as you could afford it. However it seems like the Caribbean is now a better option, as you get equal chances as Australian grads to match in Canada, and a much better chance at getting into the US. But the same problems are going to happen in the US over the coming years as well, so I can't say going ANYWHERE outside of Canada is an acceptable risk anymore.

[nosuperman]

If this was 4 years ago I would say that going to Australia is a better option than the Caribbean, as long as you could afford it. However it seems like the Caribbean is now a better option, as you get equal chances as Australian grads to match in Canada, and a much better chance at getting into the US. But the same problems are going to happen in the US over the coming years as well, so I can't say going ANYWHERE outside of Canada is an acceptable risk anymore.

 

Agreed. I actually didn't apply to Caribbean this past round because I thought Australia would be the safer choice, as per the 4-years-ago ideology, and I'm kind of disappointed with how this has turned out risk-wise.

[gadabout]

It's probably not too late to apply to Carrib if you're serious about going there. St George's in Grenada has January matriculation last time I checked. There still should be plenty of time to apply.

 

Australian schools do have advantages over certain Carrib schools in that some North American medical schools do not allow Carrib medical students to take clerkship electives with them (UBC comes to mind). But I don't think Carrib medical students will have that much trouble securing electives anyhow... and their clinical years are already spent in the US which is a huge advantage, as we all know.

 

With Australian schools, I think there's less worry that you're getting an education that only helps you do well on USMLEs but does not help you gain skills that will make you a great doctor. There are concerns that education in some off-shore schools are too targeted at USMLEs -- their bread and butter. On the flip side, if you don't perform well on the USMLEs/MCC exams, you might not get the residency spots you want. And it does seem Australian graduates struggle with Step 1 because the curriculums don't cover the basic sciences required for Step 1.

[leviathan]

It's probably not too late to apply to Carrib if you're serious about going there. St George's in Grenada has January matriculation last time I checked. There still should be plenty of time to apply.

 

Australian schools do have advantages over certain Carrib schools in that some North American medical schools do not allow Carrib medical students to take clerkship electives with them (UBC comes to mind). But I don't think Carrib medical students will have that much trouble securing electives anyhow... and their clinical years are already spent in the US which is a huge advantage, as we all know.

 

With Australian schools, I think there's less worry that you're getting an education that only helps you do well on USMLEs but does not help you gain skills that will make you a great doctor. There are concerns that education in some off-shore schools are too targeted at USMLEs -- their bread and butter. On the flip side, if you don't perform well on the USMLEs/MCC exams, you might not get the residency spots you want. And it does seem Australian graduates struggle with Step 1 because the curriculums don't cover the basic sciences required for Step 1.

I've heard that comment thrown around a lot how a curriculum is too focused on the USMLE. I think that's a baseless allegation though. Exactly what skills or education are you referring to?

 

Australia definitely has an edge over Carib schools for electives in BC, but the east coast is not so prejudiced. On the flip side, there are a small group of students at a certain school in the Caribbean who are doing core rotations in the maritime provinces, which you obviously can't do coming from Australia.

 

Regardless as I said, it's a bad idea to go really anywhere outside of Canada at the moment. That's my opinion anyway, but obviously people will still take huge risks in order to pursue their goals, and that's their prerogative.

[gadabout]

RE: Curriculum too focused on USMLE. It's an allegation I've heard against Carib/Eastern European schools.

 

RE: Core rotation in Maritimes. Which Carib school would that be? Saba? I'd never heard of this, and have been told that such collaborations do not exist. I DO know most prominent Carib schools facilitate core rotations in the states.

 

If what you have said is true, then I can't imagine it'd be a bad idea to go to that Carib school. Also, when you said it's a bad idea to do education outside of Canada, you probably meant outside of North America...

[leviathan]

RE: Curriculum too focused on USMLE. It's an allegation I've heard against Carib/Eastern European schools.

Yeah, I've heard the same, but there isn't really any basis to it. I mean, even if you accuse a school of only focusing on the Step 1, then find me an area of education that Canadian schools cover which isn't a part of the material tested on the Step 1. In fact, it's a bit ironic when Canadian students accuse other schools of being inadequate since I've heard the curriculum taught in US schools/tested on the USMLE is in more depth than what Canadian medical schools go over. However I also heard Canadian schools focus more on clerkship stuff even during the first two years, in place of learning the biochemistry/genetics/pathogenesis and basic medical science info.

 

RE: Core rotation in Maritimes. Which Carib school would that be? Saba? I'd never heard of this, and have been told that such collaborations do not exist. I DO know most prominent Carib schools facilitate core rotations in the states.

All the schools in the Carib have their official rotations in the United States. I know at least one school that has had students setting up cores in Canada. The preceptors enjoy taking students from this school and regularly accept a small number every semester for most cores. Because it's an unofficial thing, I wouldn't want to say which school it was and have people falsely believe they're going to be able to do the same thing. The only point was, going to a school over here allows you to get a lot more exposure in North American hospitals (whether it be Canada or the US, for cores and/or electives).

 

If what you have said is true, then I can't imagine it'd be a bad idea to go to that Carib school. Also, when you said it's a bad idea to do education outside of Canada, you probably meant outside of North America...

Oops, yes, the US is still a great option as well for both Canada and the US. I have a few friends who just graduated from US schools this year and matched into Canadian residencies.

[Dreamcatcher]

This is all very disheartening to hear *sigh. I have seriously been considering Australia for med school (was recently accepted to UQ). My primary goal is to come back to North America, with Canada as my first choice and the U.S. second. My reason for choosing Australia over the Carib is that I am interested in entering academic medicine and my chances of gaining a position at an academic centre/university may be limited if I go the Carib route due to stigma issues, etc. Australia is internationally recognized and thus I have been thinking that this route may be better for my ultimate career goals.

 

While the match rates for Aussie grads in Canada (41% I believe) aren't too bad (compared to about 25% or so for Carib grads), it's still relatively low. Yes the situation is bleak for FMGs in Canada, although Aussie grads may have a better chance than Carib grads. I know that at both places, electives can be done in Canada (a max. of 2-3) but I don't think it's possible to do cores anywhere in Canada. What school is this that you speak of leviathan? I think it's safe to disclose the name as all we're doing here is some info- and experience-sharing, while taking everything with a grain of salt.

 

Now if Canada doesn't work out, applying to the U.S. for residency won't be without its hurdles. Apart from the USMLEs, as has been mentioned, I'm concerned about how our double-international status and more importantly, lack of clinical experience in the U.S. will affect residency matching. Urghhh what a nightmare . I think I'm going to stay put in Canada and head back to undergrad to get my GPA up and keep applying *sigh.

[Dreamcatcher]

I realize that I've just reiterated most of what has already been said so I apologize. I guess this was just my way of thinking things through and to keep the discussion going

[leviathan]

I realize that I've just reiterated most of what has already been said so I apologize. I guess this was just my way of thinking things through and to keep the discussion going

It's still good to get your input and see that there are multiple people even on this board who are affected by this. Not an easy decision to make! 450 people in a class at UQ? How do they ensure quality of education with that many people? Is the student:faculty ratio decent? Do they still accept Canadians to UQ without an interview or essay or any information about your non-academic activities?

[redshifteffect]

I think that the caribbean focusing on the USMLE is actually a good thing vs. Australian schools which do not really focus on the USMLE. My reasoning behind this is that the USMLE score is going to be a very important factor in getting you a job, and therefore doing well in it will be very important.

[UTPEOPLE]

I also heard that some carib schools wont even let you do your STEP 1 unless you do well on a practice test (to artificially inflate their posted scores). Thus, if you go to these schools because of a poor MCAT score... you wont be able to see the light of day...

[nosuperman]

It's still good to get your input and see that there are multiple people even on this board who are affected by this. Not an easy decision to make! 450 people in a class at UQ? How do they ensure quality of education with that many people? Is the student:faculty ratio decent?

 

I asked the lady who came over to do the info session about the class size thing. She said basically you have a large class size for the lectures but everything else is done in small groups so "students don't even notice".

 

Do they still accept Canadians to UQ without an interview or essay or any information about your non-academic activities?

 

Yeah, I asked her about this as well. They say according to their research the MCAT and GPA hurdles are sufficient. Apparently if you are the type of person willing to uproot and go to Australia, it means you're probably personal/spontaneous/ambitious/brave... i.e. all of the things you'd look for in a potential student/colleague.

[happysunbeam]

"If I distinguish myself, graduate close to the top of my class, excel in the clinical setting and work hard to gain experience in the hospitals... if I stand out beyond all expectations - will I have the opportunity to follow up on any interests I have in non-family-medicine-related fields?" I don't care where it is but if I happen to like surgery, cardiology, obgyn, etc - would I have a chance at following up on it in Canada, US or Australia?

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought once you do (if possible) your internship and successfully obtain your PR status, you are on equal footing with local students to pursue any field?

 

Shouldn't you have the same chance as anyone else of going into your field of interest?