What are my chances - from a long-time lurker

[Jojef]

Fellow long-suffering premeds,

 

I'm looking at applying to American schools for the upcoming admissions cycle. A bit about me: I was interviewed, waitlisted at UBC in 2010, then denied an interview for 2011. I'm also considering moving to Alberta with the aim of unchecking the "crapshoot" box on my OOP application (I'm from BC). Anyway, I need your help in whittling down my list of American schools as I broaden my horizons; I'm super familiar with the Canadian system but am fairly clueless re: US schools. And the idea of Aussie or Irish schools still gives me the geebies (not being a doc would suck; having 250K in loans with no way to pay it off - i.e., can't get residency or come back to Canada - would REALLY suck).

 

I've gone through the MSAR and gathered a list of 10 or so schools that a) technically accept Canadians and have mean GPA and MCAT cutoffs close (or not so much) to mine.

 

Here they are with mean accepted GPA and mean accepted GPA :

George Washington University 3.7 30Q

University of Hawaii 3.7 31Q

University of Louisville 3.7 30P

University of Louisville 3.7 30P

Tulane University 3.6 31Q

Michigan State University 3.6 30P

East Tennessee State University 3.7 30P

Meharry Medical School 3.5 25O

University of Utah 3.7 29P

Eastern Virginia Medical School 3.6 31Q

Virginia Commonwealth Uni 3.7 30Q

 

My stats:

CGPA: 3.67

AMCAS CGPA: 3.6ish?? --> I'm know that AMCAS pulls the ol' switcheroo and commutes A+'s to A's. I have 11 A+'s so that's really going to hurt. Upper Division UDGPA: 4.11

Trends: Very strong upward trend. Last 50 credits close to 4.1.

Prerequs: Weak! Likely average a B+/A-.

MCAT: 29Q 8PS 10VR 11BS

 

ECs

3 yrs/200 hours of hospital volunteering in a leadership role (training, mentoring, etc.), 2.5yrs/300 hours crisis line (again, with leadership/promotion), couple minor scholarships, 100 hours international volunteer experience (1 month in South America), 2.5yrs/150 hours Special Olympics (head coach, program volunteer, some basic admin), 2 yrs/100 hours care home volunteer, co-founder of (soon-to-be) registered non-profit organization (lots of initiative etc.), 3 months directed studies research health sciencey field, 6 months part-time research assistant/course materials writer, 2 yrs paid work in geriatric healthcare setting, plus misc. interesting stuff (woodworking - built a guitar, public speaking/emceeing, sports, outdoorsmanship etc.).

 

LORs will be strong, and from people who know me well, but then so will everybody else's. I don't have heavy hitters (though I could possibly get one from an MD); most would be sourced from "community people", though I do have two somewhat less strong academic references.

 

So, I consider myself to have relatively strong ECs, decent/low-end grades and a good personal story. I'm also slightly older than the traditional med applicant (25 yoa). Not sure if this classifies me as "unconventional" given that I did a science degree.

 

I know that both my MCAT and my CGPA are below average. Nonetheless, I do have a few things working in my favor. I have a verifiable and compelling/interesting med school motivation story and a good trend in grades. I'm convinced to this day that it was my essay that got me as far as I did at UBC, and once they removed it for the last application cycle, well...

 

Any input would be very, very much appreciated. Is my list of schools incomplete? Are there others I should be considering? I know Wayne State, Kentucky, SUNY and have been suggested. What I'm really wondering is this: what schools are a good fit for someone with my stats/strengths. Feel free to tell me what I may not want to hear - god knows my Grandma won't!

 

Of course I'm still doing my own research into schools/contacting admissions departments etc. But any unofficial advice would be great.

[AnxiousBoy]

I think you put it best... applying to schools outside of your home province is a crapshoot.

 

Your list of schools is definitely incomplete. My list was pretty long but it hardly overlaps with your list. When I was looking into things, schools down the middle (mideastern-midwestern) were pretty much a no go. Hawaii rejected me after 1 week pos-app submission. Best gauge is to look at each school's class statistics and see the number of Canadians enrolled.

 

I think an applicant from Canada really needs to sell themselves in their application and it is entirely possible to leap frog over other Canadian applicants with higher GPA and MCAT scores. I say this because most US schools don't get enough applicants from Canada to be able to judge them based on school reputation, rigor of curriculum, nor the extra-curricular activities more commonly undertaken by the US counterparts. This is actually an advantage. It gives you the avenue to express yourself in unique ways unaffordable to others. If you don't want to be left forgotten, I suggest you review your CV, pick an angle and run with it.

 

Good luck

[deathvvv]

google princeton review and MSAR, there is a little excel file that tells you the avg stats of matriculants and their MCAT/GPA and how many internationals they admit, just cuz a school's stat is 3.5/30, doesnt mean you can get in with those stats because 1) they dont take canadians 2) they are a state school and those who get in with those stats are residents

 

But generally, schools with low stats that are canadian friendly are:

 

1) Wayne State

2) Jefferson

3)CMS

4) GWU

5) SUNY (not very friendly but they give you in state tuition after 1 year)

[moo]

I would take Meharry off your list. This is a historically black college that really admits mostly African Americans to serve in poor urban black areas. Even if you're black, if you don't have US citizenship, you will likely not qualify for admission.

[Genemo]

Sorry but I have a irrelevant question...for US schools that take Canadians, do they take canadians at higher cutoff (like the oop thing in canada)? Cos if they do, then having a 3.67GPA as a canadian and applying for US schools with average accepted at 3.7GPA will not be a good idea since they may give a harsh cutoff for not being the US citizen.

[Genemo]

There's no strict cut-off in the US admission process and the reviews are more holistic.

 

But don't they require much higher for canadians compare to their average?

[Slashsev]

mcats will come to haunt u...

 

u need to hit 30 (10, 10 10)...

 

you might get 1-2 interviews, compared to majority with a 30-32.. id do a rewrite and apply same time

[Slashsev]

dont forget waynn...isnt that a canadian fav?BU too...

 

isnt University of Hawaii no international...realistically speaking i dont think theyd take anyone from outside

[Jojef]

Hey All,

 

Thanks for your input. I''ll try to respond to each of you in turn.

 

AnxiousBoy, what others schools are on your list? What were your stats and outcomes (rejections, acceptances, etc.)? Insofar as looking into class stats, I'm assuming the best way to go about this would be to visit each school's website. I agree with the angling bit - as I said, I was frankly shocked to get waitlisted at UBC (in a good way), and I think the only way I got that was by submitting a unique application. Though of course for your application to work it's literary magic you at least need to have the baseline MCAT/GPA so your app doesn't go straight to the toilet. Whether or not I have that, we'll see. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

Mlbn, yep I've thought of re-writing the MCAT. Shortly after I usually think about vomiting. I know my score is low - especially PS - so I'm prepared to write it again. With a solid low 30s MCAT I'd be much more competitive. Something to think about for next cycle, as it's too late for this one. Thanks for the heads up on EVMS. SLU would be nice (my dad went there), but escrow is a no-no for me. Also, is there a reliable way/agorithm for me to predict my AMCAS GPA?

 

Deathvvv, thanks for the list..I keep hearing SUNY, Wayne, and GWU. I'll have to investigate. I tried to find that spreadsheet, but was led back to these boards with a link to this (much more entertaining than excel):

Is it possible you can upload it or PM me? Thanks.

 

Moo, I'm a WASP. Guess Meharry's out. Thanks.

 

Genemo, I think I know what you're getting at (i.e., that US schools don't have a strict cutoff, but rather a higher GPA/MCAT standard for Canadian applicants relative to American ones). Can anyone else verify this? I've certainly heard this before. Are there US schools that are blind to Canadian citizenship? Average accepted CPA necessarily implies that there's people with sub-3.7 who get in (probably not much south of 3.6, I would think); whether or not these are Canadians would be nice to know.

 

For everyone: generally speaking, how are graduate degrees looked upon by American schools? I'm considering doing one in Austria, Holland, Germany or Alberta. Also, I know that reapplication without drastic improvement is strongly discouraged at most American schools. Am I shooting myself in the foot by even applying to schools this year with my relatively poor MCAT? Would I be better off to wait until next year and apply with a stronger MCAT, or would a re-write of say 32Q be enough improvement (in addition to some other NAQs). I may yet do a masters.

 

Thanks again in advance.

[Genemo]

Unfortunately I have no idea about the US schools and Im not able to help with your case. I'd love to seew what other people say since I may consider the US as an option.

 

Good luck Jojef.

[deathvvv]

dont have the complete link, but this is literally the first result when i googled "MSAR princeton". webscript.princeton.edu/~premed/MSAR2..

 

As for the Canadian thing, let me further illustrate an example. Average american MD matriculant has a stat of 3.6/31 while the average Canadian at US school has 3.7/33. So as you can see, Canadians who are accepted generally have higher stats. Also, check the accepted/interviewed/rejected thread on this forum and you see everyone who got accepted had at least a 30 MCAT (I squeaked in just with a 30). So as you can see, you are fighting an uphill battle with a 29. Op, your dad went to SLU for med school? Is he american? Doesnt that give you citizenship status?

 

As for the masters thing, US schools dont give you much credit for doing a masters (ie a research masters will not compensate a low GPA/MCAT). The only benefit from that is publications to boost your CV+ interesting stories you may share during interviews. If you are looking for grad school, Canadian med schools (particular U o T) tends to be more receptive. Good luck to you

[Genemo]

dont have the complete link, but this is literally the first result when i googled "MSAR princeton". webscript.princeton.edu/~premed/MSAR2..

 

As for the Canadian thing, let me further illustrate an example. Average american MD matriculant has a stat of 3.6/31 while the average Canadian at US school has 3.7/33. So as you can see, Canadians who are accepted generally have higher stats. Also, check the accepted/interviewed/rejected thread on this forum and you see everyone who got accepted had at least a 30 MCAT (I squeaked in just with a 30). So as you can see, you are fighting an uphill battle with a 29. Op, your dad went to SLU for med school? Is he american? Doesnt that give you citizenship status?

 

As for the masters thing, US schools dont give you much credit for doing a masters (ie a research masters will not compensate a low GPA/MCAT). The only benefit from that is publications to boost your CV+ interesting stories you may share during interviews. If you are looking for grad school, Canadian med schools (particular U o T) tends to be more receptive. Good luck to you

 

Thanks for addressing that question! May I ask if the US schools distinguish Canadian citizens and permanent residences? I wouldn't be surprise if they do, but I wonder for those US schools taking Canadians, are they just taking international students as a whole, or specifically friendly to canadians only? I'm a PR but not a citizen, in case you are wondering why I'm asking.

[deathvvv]

Depends on the school, some school like wayne state, accept Canadians only, thus all internationals category on the MSAR are Canadians, on the other hand, Harvard accepts internationals, so in that case, the Canadian applicants are considered as internationals along with citizens of other countries. As a PR, you can apply to a lot of other schools (ie EVMS) that Canadians cannot. What are your stats?

 

Thanks for addressing that question! May I ask if the US schools distinguish Canadian citizens and permanent residences? I wouldn't be surprise if they do, but I wonder for those US schools taking Canadians, are they just taking international students as a whole, or specifically friendly to canadians only? I'm a PR but not a citizen, in case you are wondering why I'm asking.

[Genemo]

Depends on the school, some school like wayne state, accept Canadians only, thus all internationals category on the MSAR are Canadians, on the other hand, Harvard accepts internationals, so in that case, the Canadian applicants are considered as internationals along with citizens of other countries. As a PR, you can apply to a lot of other schools (ie EVMS) that Canadians cannot. What are your stats?

 

Thanks for answering. Talking about my stats, well...I will be writing my first MCAT this summer and I don't expect it to be a balanced 30+, since my verbal really sucks. I will keep practising my reading during this year and write it again next summer, and that one will be my serious best try.

 

About my GPA...I had two years with tons of credits @~86% in China and I have no idea how they will look at that GPA, maybe something like 3.5-3.6/4? And then I have 3 years at ubc but because of the co-op I only had 66 credits @ ~83% during that 3 years. I decided to postpone my graduation to 2012 so I still have one year to go and I will fill that year with 30 more credits. I'm hoping for something like ~90% but yeah it sounds ambitious and I cant guarantee it.

 

I know my case is really complicated so I can't expect to have an accurate idea about my chance without apply&see how it goes. Is there any US schools that actually look at the latest 2 years specifically? I would benefit a lot from that but I think I saw somewhere says the US schools look at all credits at post-secondary level.

 

Thanks for finish reading lol

[Genemo]

As a PR, you can apply to a lot of other schools (ie EVMS) that Canadians cannot. What are your stats?

 

What do you mean by this? Is there any schools that don't take canadians but preferably take students from other countries (sounds ridiculous tho)?

[deathvvv]

Oh my bad, I thought you meant US PR. Generally, US schools DO NOT take Canadian PR (only citizens). Also, you mentioned that you did most of your undergraduate studies in China, thats also a red flag. All US schools require you to do at least 3 years (90 semester hours?) in a US and Canadian school. So things are not looking good for you on the US end. And no, US schools do not have a best 2/highest 2 year policy. If you are intent on US schools, you probably have to do a second undergraduate degree in Canada, do well on the MCAT (30+, at least 8 in verbal, but in reality you probably need 9+) and apply.

[Genemo]

Oh my bad, I thought you meant US PR. Generally, US schools DO NOT take Canadian PR (only citizens). Also, you mentioned that you did most of your undergraduate studies in China, thats also a red flag. All US schools require you to do at least 3 years (90 semester hours?) in a US and Canadian school. So things are not looking good for you on the US end. And no, US schools do not have a best 2/highest 2 year policy. If you are intent on US schools, you probably have to do a second undergraduate degree in Canada, do well on the MCAT (30+, at least 8 in verbal, but in reality you probably need 9+) and apply.

 

Ha. I wish I had the US PR

 

I will apply for the US after graduation, and by then I would have completed ~90 credits in Canada which equals to 3 years (and that took me 4 years to finish with co-op). Does this help? And does that mean they won't take my chinese GPA into consideration (I wish...)?

 

I think 30+ with 8 in verbal should be within my reach and maybe I could get a 9 if I work hard enough and lucky. I'm strong at physics and I major biology so I wouldn't think science will be my problem.

[deathvvv]

Hey

 

sounds like you got your mind set. Good luck to you. A few things though.

 

Canadian PR: That makes you ineligible at couple of schools, Wayne and GWU comes into mind since they only take Canadians. Make sure you check the excel file out to see which one accept INTERNATIONAL students (ie not Canadian citizens) before you apply. Good luck

[Genemo]

Hey

 

sounds like you got your mind set. Good luck to you. A few things though.

 

Canadian PR: That makes you ineligible at couple of schools, Wayne and GWU comes into mind since they only take Canadians. Make sure you check the excel file out to see which one accept INTERNATIONAL students (ie not Canadian citizens) before you apply. Good luck

 

I know I have a small chance at Canadian schools, and maybe an even smaller chance at the US. And that's why I've never looked into the US schools. But good I get your confirmation on this.

 

I'll work towards canadian schools first and see how it goes. If after several years I still dont get in, then I may qualify for the canadian citizen at that time and then apply for the us as a canadian.

 

Thanks and all the best with your study

[Slashsev01]

US or much of canada for that matter...doesnt care about masters...

 

takes some classes 2-3, write the mcat get 30, and apply nxt year

[thirty6ix]

But generally, schools with low stats that are canadian friendly are:

 

1) Wayne State

2) Jefferson

3)CMS

4) GWU

5) SUNY (not very friendly but they give you in state tuition after 1 year)

 

SUNY Upstate is decently friendly to Canadians, although the other SUNY schools are not. Also, it is Upstate's policy to give US citizens/permanent residents in-state tuition after one year, but this policy does not apply to Canadians; they require 4 years of out of state tuition.

[moo]

The only schools that are really friendly to Internationals are either MD/PhD programs or schools that are top tier.

[deathvvv]

Thanks for clarifying. By not being Canadian friendly, I was referring to the trend that they are increasingly accepting more and more instaters (instate student went from ~50% of the class to 90% of the class from 2004-2009). Since they accept less out of state (which Canadians are considered as for admission but not tuition purposes), fewer Canadians are accepted as they years go by (check MSAR) due to the less number of OOS admitted.

 

SUNY Upstate is decently friendly to Canadians, although the other SUNY schools are not. Also, it is Upstate's policy to give US citizens/permanent residents in-state tuition after one year, but this policy does not apply to Canadians; they require 4 years of out of state tuition.

[AnxiousBoy]

Thanks for clarifying. By not being Canadian friendly, I was referring to the trend that they are increasingly accepting more and more instaters (instate student went from ~50% of the class to 90% of the class from 2004-2009). Since they accept less out of state (which Canadians are considered as for admission but not tuition purposes), fewer Canadians are accepted as they years go by (check MSAR) due to the less number of OOS admitted.

 

Yes, I agree with this person.

 

As to the OP, there's no use comparing our stats. I graduated from an Ivy League school and I was reviewed like any other US applicant. Its been quite a few years now so I don't remember my school list but they mostly centered around the northeast.

 

Correct regarding less and less Canadians being accepted at Upstate (PS: Upstate is the only SUNY that accepts Canadians). There once was a time when you can literally make a Canadian posse, but those days are long gone.

 

Correct regarding tuition break. If you are being drawn in due to the in-state tuition rate after 1 year, it doesn't apply to Canadians. Tuition went from ~35k to ~50k the past few years with increases every time the State made cuts to the hospital system. Upstate is part of the SUNY system which in turn is directly linked to the State government. The school has no control over its own tuition rate/hike and must accept what is dictated down to them. From what I hear, there was another 10% cut in the budget so I expect another hefty tuition hike for next year.

 

If you haven't noticed, I attend SUNY Upstate.

[DubZteR]

SUNY Upstate is decently friendly to Canadians, although the other SUNY schools are not. Also, it is Upstate's policy to give US citizens/permanent residents in-state tuition after one year, but this policy does not apply to Canadians; they require 4 years of out of state tuition.

 

My gut feeling tells me that SUNY Upstate will in the near future not accept applications from non-US citizen/perm residents. As someone else pointed out, they're the only SUNY school that accepts non-US citizens/perm residents.