Guest anitabanita Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 my roomate and I brought this up recently and I was just wondering what people from this forum thought(?) here is where were things are at now - ...Is it wrong to deny anybody health care especially emergency health care on the basis of something like citizinship. (?) ...yes they should get free healthcare. Give them the same quality of service as anyone else would get, and worry about the details later(?) ...Canada is a country because of immigration(?) ...Every Canadian has the right to free and necessary health care. Everybody else has to pay. We could open our hearts and look after the world's poor, deprived, or greedy for free - actually, why not? But when you want a MRI or a CT scan, or stitches in your finger, and you have to wait inappropriate amounts of time to receive your rightful treatment because of the 80,000 illegal immigrants in front of you, you'd better not complain (?) ...well, the issue is more about punishing the right people, than it is about punishing the immigrants - immigrants are used in plants and crops because they don't need to be paid minimum wage. So how can actual residents be angry about immigrants because they dont pay taxes but they benefit from free healthcare...but they love using them for cheap labour (?) ...a woman in labor must remain to deliver her child. Babies born to illegal aliens - (degradingly called “Anchor Babies” for once they are born, like anchors dropped to keep boats safely in harbor they pull their illegal alien parents and siblings into lucrative residency) The babies instantly qualify as citizens for welfare benefits, resulting in skyrocketing Medicare costs and stipends, is this right(?) ...The movement of people into Canada is controlled by Citizenship and Immigration Canada in order to protect the Canadian people, economy, and services from the strains that would occur due to a huge influx of migrants. Illegal immigrants should not be provided with free healthcare, because it is a burden to Canada's already floundering healthcare system (?) **********...if ya'll would like to keep this easy ...a simple yes or no would be great ( or maybe a sentence or so),just want to get a feel of what ppl think with a little informal survey. Note: I did a search and nothing came up, but if anyone knows a thread where this alrady is - holler at me with it! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jochi1543 Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 I got a huge problem with the whole illegal immigration debate because I'm a legal immigrant and get really ticked off when people who think it's ok to abuse the law and expect to get everything, including some things that I, as a legal immigrant, wouldn't be able to get. Takes me back to the US debate about illegal immigrants - they are all talking about how it's all racist and whatever to deny citizenship to illegals while people like me have lived in the States LEGALLY for years and years are NEVER going to get a chance at citizenship despite obeying the law, paying taxes, etc. So I say if you wanna get the benefits, either go back to your home country or take the legal path. I would definitely have a huge problem with illegals being treated when there is even just one citizen or legal alien waiting for healthcare. If non-profit organizations want to organize centers specially geared towards helping those people - sure, why not - but I think the government should take care of its citizens and legal residents first, and then everybody else. However, I do not foresee a situation in the near future when every Canadian citizen and legal resident gets the healthcare he or she wants, so there's definitely no room for treating illegals. Sure, Canada is a country because of immigration, but people get so fixated on illegals, they forget about all the LEGAL immigrants coming to the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daryn Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 1) It is definitely wrong (IMHO) to deny someone emergency health care on the basis of citizenship. If somebody is dying at my doorstep, my first instinct as a human being is to do whatever I can to help them, not to check their passport. 2) At the same time, I don't necessarily mean any and all sorts of health care services. Emergency, yes. I agree with Jochi on this point. If we worry about the details later, I can't even start to imagine the abuse the system would get. Canada IS a country of immigration. So do it legally. 3) "Every Canadian has the right to free and necessary health care. Everybody else has to pay." I agree unless we are talking on humanitarian grounds which is very subjective. Again, if it's deathly urgent and necessary, I would say go for it. I would rather depend on our refugee declaration system for this. I know it's not a good/perfect system, but it's more unifying. 4) Again, if you want to live here, do it the legal way. I immigrated to Canada myself. It's not fair to all the other people who do this legally. What's the point in immigration laws then if there is nothing wrong with being illegal immigrants? If they do it legally, they wouldn't have to suffer wages below the minimum wage because they would be covered under Canadian laws. 5) "a woman in labor"... I don't think it's right, maybe. We should deliver the baby, as it's urgent and necessary for the health of the mother and the baby. But do we need to grant it citizenship if neither mom or baby ever wishes to reside in Canada? Is it just another "just in case" passports to hang onto? If they end up living in Canada, then by all means, give the baby citizenship. 6) Canada's health care system is already floundering. We should fix the bigger problem (which is ours to fix) before we point fingers at people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xylem33 Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 You can't deny anyone health-care no matter what - no questions asked - even if the patient is the mafia boss or cop killer jake or a white supremist - that is not the concern of the profession. You make a vow upon graduation from med school...you serve humanity - humans, individuals. There is no such thing as Canadian, American, European, Chinese - nationalities, citizenship, politics - no way jose. Humanity and that's it - idealistic for sure but that's how we gotta be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jochi1543 Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 But do we need to grant it citizenship if neither mom or baby ever wishes to reside in Canada? Is it just another "just in case" passports to hang onto? If they end up living in Canada, then by all means, give the baby citizenship I *think* (not 100% positive) that you have to apply for it - the government won't just check on your baby's status and just hand the baby citizenship. If I remember correctly about the US - again, this is not an area of immigration I'm familiar with since none of my family members did that and I don't personally know anyone who did this either, but I think that's what I read - the mother has pigeon rights until the child is 18 and acknowledges his or her desire to let the mother have citizenship too. I believe they then have to go through a family reunion-type process (same as you would if you had a parent in the States and wished to immigrate there). I definitely remember reading about more than one case where a woman was in the States on a visa, gave birth, the child and the father who was a US citizen remained in the country, but she was sent packing home and had to go through hell just to get the opportunity to see her child in the US. I don't know how strict Canada is about that, but you are not exactly just handed citizenship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jochi1543 Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 You can't deny anyone health-care no matter what - no questions asked - even if the patient is the mafia boss or cop killer jake or a white supremist - that is not the concern of the profession. You make a vow upon graduation from med school...you serve humanity - humans, individuals. There is no such thing as Canadian, American, European, Chinese - nationalities, citizenship, politics - no way jose. Humanity and that's it - idealistic for sure but that's how we gotta be. Yeah, but your pay comes from Canadian dollars and you work for Canadians - you can sure head to China on your own time and money and help the locals, but when you are in Canada and on the Canadian payroll, educated by a medical school supported by Canadian dollars, I believe your primary commitment should always be to those who are support you and have helped made you into a doctor, which would be Canadians. But then again, maybe it's *me* who's idealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lurkergonepublic Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 immigrants are used in plants and crops Maybe it's just because it's late, but this part made me laugh when I read it. Sorry, nothing real to contribute... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest happy2bme Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Canadian born children of illegal immigrants are allowed to stay, HOWEVER their parents are sent packing! Just because you have a baby in Canada, doesn't mean you get to stay in Canada. I have witness this first hand. Obviously most people will take their baby with them back to their home country, but legally the child CAN stay with friends, family, or a ward of the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HP Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 No. Health care is not free. The universal insurance we enjoy is one of the best and most efficient means of allocating/financing care (IMO), but it is still paid for by tax dollars. People who support the system should be covered, people who don't should not. As far as using this as compensation for employers underpaying workers...two wrongs don't make a right. (Like many of you, I wouldn't turn someone away from an emergency department...but as soon as they walked out under their own power they would be talking with someone from the government.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Law Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Personally, I think that Canada's immigration policy may be a little to strict. I have heard of people who came here, made a good life for themselves through hard work, yet ended up being deported. I don't think you can deny anyone health care. Personally, as I human being... how could you say no? Especially in cases of an emergency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tmacgirl Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 ^ Canada's immigration policy is not strict at all...if done the proper way. The proper way is when people apply to have resident status. I know alot of people who have come from other countries and had no problem with the immigration policy is Canada when they did everything the right way. (side not:we do have to remeber that Canada does have safety policies that can't be ignored). I believe its ethically wrong to deny a person health care in an emergency sistuation. A life is much more important then residental status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jochi1543 Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Yup, I've experienced both Canadian and US immigration, and Canada is a lot less strict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xylem33 Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 but your way of seeing the world is still a little flawed IMHO - because being paid by Canadian taxes and being trained by Canadian schools does not and should not oblige a doctor to serve his compatriots first and foremost. PPl have to start seeing the world as a world without borders - some doctor from england wrote some article...i can't remember from what time or his name but he put it best when he said that doctors are the prototype supranational man (or woman). We're not lawyers or politicians or soldiers or economists or busniess people - aren't we all citizen's of the world? i wouldn't head over to china to work for free - unless i was really wealthy. however, anyone who needed my care in canada would get it - i don't know how illegal immigrants get their healthcare but let me just pt out that if they didn't have ohip or another form of payment, i wouldn't help them for free unless it was a life or death situation. now, of course - an illegal should never receive care ahead of a tax paying canadian. but then again, relatives and close friends of doctors, head nurses, presidents of hospitals shouldn't bypass waitlists for treatments over ppl with no connections but **** happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Law Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Yes, Canada is a lot less strict than the US. However, Canada does seem to favour academically oriented applicants vs labour applicants. There is currently a push in the house of commons by some MPs to try and change that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daryn Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 If I decide to volunteer my time and my resources to help, as xylem quoted, people in China by working there for free for six months or something, then so be it. I'm doing this out of my own free will and not at the expense of others. There is a difference in providing emergency care and non emergency. I would help whoever regardless of nationality if the need arises. Otherwise, I would be compromising somebody else's (somebody living in Canada) health, regardless of where I have been educated etc. How is that fair to those people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jochi1543 Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 How is it fair for these people to break Canada's laws and use such amenities as excellent infrastracture, etc, without ever paying a dime in taxes that finance all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daryn Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HP Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 but your way of seeing the world is still a little flawed IMHO - because being paid by Canadian taxes and being trained by Canadian schools does not and should not oblige a doctor to serve his compatriots first and foremost. PPl have to start seeing the world as a world without borders - some doctor from england wrote some article...i can't remember from what time or his name but he put it best when he said that doctors are the prototype supranational man (or woman). We're not lawyers or politicians or soldiers or economists or busniess people - aren't we all citizen's of the world? Agreed, but keep in mind we're not just talking about physicians. There are nurses, techs, therapists, porters, clerks, etc. that all still need to eat too and can't afford to work for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Law Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Yeah, I agree. It would not be fair that they're not paying taxes and yet still receiving the same health care. I do think that Canada needs to reform some of its immigration policies though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jochi1543 Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Btw, based on my meager experience, there isn't much of a shortage of laborers here who are Canadian-born.....I hire a lot of laborers for the plant where I work, and the # of people who apply for this not particularly desirable job (very loud and dusty environment) is rather insane. I probably get 10 guys applying for one spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Law Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 I haven't read very much and am not that informed, but based on the little I know about this topic, I know there is always demand for labourers. There is a lot of demand also for construction workers. Based on what I've heard about Canada's "point system" for immigration... it seems to highly favour academics. Again, I'm not well rehearsed in this topic and this is only based on the very little I've read about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jochi1543 Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Based on what I've heard about Canada's "point system" for immigration... it seems to highly favour academics. That's just one of the categories, also known as "skilled worker" - your humble servant here immigrated under this category.:hat We crack jokes about it at work every time I make some dumbass mistake.:rollin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Law Posted July 1, 2006 Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 Ahaha that's funny. I was too young when I immigrated here to remember anything.:eek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scooter Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 I just thought i would add my two cents (that is about all I have...). First, yes Canada awards points for immigration biased towards academics, but then those people end up in menial labour. Second, tons of Canadians don't pay taxes!! or not their fair share at least (not talking about us poor folk who have no money to pay; ) but the fat cats and what not that hide their money or find loop holes in the tax system... Not to mention the new tax cuts S.H. (Stupid Harper/ or S*** Head) put in that see the rich paying less taxes (a gst cut means that those buying more "non-essentials" like flat screen tvs are paying less taxes, where as the single parent who barely has enough to eat, still pays the same because "essentials" like food and kids clothes are still tax-free. Third, immigration along with favouring the academics, favours the rich. It takes a lot of money to immigrate to Canada on non-refugee (this still costs a lot) tracts. You need to hire a lawyer and fill out the paper work, not to mention getting here. And then leaving again, to come back in... Also, abroad there are tons of unscrupulious people that prey on people's dreams and charge them for help with applying...thus taking all their money. Fourth, as doctors I believe we have a legal requirement to offer emergency assistance to anyone near us (I believe it is something like the closest doctor to the victim is required to offer their assistance, and can't just pretend not to be a doctor and continue eating their supper). And no-one can be refused care in Canada. Fyi, I have been refused based on my inability to pay (later was informed that the clinic broke the law... but that didn't help me later) (I have medicare but the card expired and they *forgot to send the new one, they appologized, and fyi it takes more than 3 weeks to get a new one... they have to snail mail you the form, then you mail it back then they snail mail you something else, then you card....grr>: ) And last, about the US granting citizenship to illegals, they are not. THey simply want to make it that you can apply whilest living in the US illegally. There are millions who are well estabilished there, they are not leaving (and if they left the economy in some areas would be devastated)...but that means now they can not apply for citizenship because they will be instantly deported. So under the new scheme, as I understand it, they can apply without fear of being deported for applying and make an effort to right a wrong and become legal and pay full taxes (though many are already paying some taxes). Just what i got to thinking about.:b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HP Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Second, tons of Canadians don't pay taxes!! or not their fair share at least Once again, two wrongs don't make a right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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