*Take hard classes now for med later?

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***9/23/2000 3:50 pm*PST

*

At my college you have to take a wp course and it so happens that biochem 2 is one of those courses I can take to make the requirement, even though I have to take biochem 1 to do it at least it will be something that will be more useful in med school then the biology wp course they offer which is called research and technical writing which sounds boring compared to biochem 1 and 2. The downside is that I will be taking it my junior year but will be doing the MCAT my first time around during my sophomore year. I doubt it will really help my mcat because most of my critical classes and my study time will be devoted to the sophomore year when I take my mcat especially if I never take it again then the biochem wouldn't have helped me at all on the mcat. I was wondering how much time studying do biochem classes take compared to organic chemistry and how hard are they and if you think it is wise for me to take biochem because it will be covered in med school again and it will cover the wp requirement at the same time or should I just go with that other WP course and take some other easy course?

 

Keep in mind though that these classes MAY hurt my GPA more then if I had not taken them, but I am not sure if they would or not, so basically I want to know how hard they are (maybe compared to organic chem) on average and if it is worth it or do you think I should just skip taking them? and just stress out in med school when you already have enough classes and studying as it is to let alone worry about learning biochem

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***9/24/2000 11:18 am*PST

*

I'm a junior, and I'm taking Biochem right now... a full year course in fact. I've heard it's easier than organic, and so far it's holding true. Biochem is just a whole lot of memorization and thus requires very little brain power to it. But then again, the ONLY reason I'm taking it is because UBC requires one year of biochem before matriculation... UBC is one of those weird schools that require a full-year of biochem and not even one term of physics... Go figure (of course I'm biased cuz I'm a physics major)

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***9/24/2000 3:32 pm*PST

*

At my school biochem is upper division and requires a year of organic chemistry(also upper division) before you can take it so this is why I was wondering if it was harder, is this what is required at your school too? Do you think it will help in medical school or probably not? I figure with the amount of volume of work and classes you take in medical school and I have heard something about biochem being hard in med school (but I could be wrong on this) so I was thinking why not take a year of biochem because I have to learn it anyways and it will also get me that WP class requirement while I am at it. Does anybody think that I should instead take the biology course- research and technical writing class- instead for my (wp-writing profiency class) requirement?

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***9/24/2000 4:06 pm*PST

*

how is biochem going to qualify you for your "writing proficiency" class? There is no writing involved in biochem... it's all memorization. Yep, orgo 2 is required for biochem at my school but it's still supposedly easier than orgo. As for course load, that depends. I'm taking six courses right now... and they're not no-brainers either--electricty and magnetism, quantum mechanics, complex variables, biochem, and an honors electronics lab... the only easy course I have is a philosophy course. On top of school, I work 16 hours a week, work as a math TA, volunteer, play intramurals, and partake in clubs, so I'm saying it's definitely do-able, but that totally depends on you. The ONLY reason I'm taking biochem is because it is required for the only in-province med school (the med school I have the highest chance of getting into), otherwise I wouldn't take it at all. I am taking the watered-down version of biochem, which is basically geared for people like me--pre-med but non-life science majors. It _will_ help in med school... most schools would recommend that you take it... and as for the GPA thing, I say don't worry too much about it... It's only one course, and it won't screw your GPA up much if you do do badly. So I would go for biochem over that other bio course you were talking about... it is actually pretty interesting stuff

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***9/25/2000 12:50 am*PST

*

I don't know why its a wp course but biochem is called a wp course so there is some type of writing in there. You say this is a watered down version , as far as I know my biochemistry class WILL not be a watered down version and is under the chemistry category and there is only one type of biochem offered at my school. Do you think there will be any difference between mine and your "watered" down version? I am kind of curious of how you can stand doing all those classes and extra stuff? I mean if I was taking all those classes would be enough of a hassle, let alone doing clubs,volunteer work, and being a math TA and having a job. How is there even enough hours in the day to accomplish all you need? or do you just really limit your studying hours which may hurt your GPA? I am guessing you must have no free time during the whole week or do you stay up till like midnight get a few hours of sleep so you can have a "couple" hours of free time every day? Please explain how you are able to handle all this stuff because to me it sounds like your going way overboard and there is NO reason to try this hard, even half this hard would be doable I think to get into most meds school(as long as your gpa and mcat are good) and if you don't get accepted well then you can work harder for a year on extra curricular activities or taking a copule classes over to help your GPA or whatever, but NO use killing yourself to the max the whole 3 years just so you don't have any chance of rejection from a medical school seems like too much. Then again maybe you have like a IQ off the charts and studying is something you don't even have to do maybe another reason why you can handle all this. Please explain how you are able to do this?

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***9/25/2000 4:54 pm*PST

*

Well first off, at our school, they offer three biochems. One is for biochem honors and majors (the hardest one), the second is for life sciences majors (the second hardest one) and the third is for non-life sciences pre-med people like me. The version I'm taking is roughly equivalent to the life sciences majors one... we just don't do stuff that are relevant to biology like photosynthesis, etc. The major focus is on human biochem.

 

And second, how do I budget all my time? First off, I'm doing something I absolutely LOVE. I am passionate about physics... it's something that has always interested me and it's something I take great pride in talking about and doing. People always ask me how I can go into med school with physics... I just tell them physics is really really beautiful and it's something I really really enjoy... and that's what matters. Anyhow, to tell you the truth, my GPA slipped a big from first year to second year, when I started getting more involved. But I still have a solid 3.72 CGPA and 3.83 SGPA, so I'm not too concerned. I think a large part of one's success in undergrad is proper time management. Watching TV on a weeknight may not seem harmless, but those three hours (or one or two) will be much better spent on studying or finishing problem sets. I make an effort to finish problem sets at least one day before they're due. And with physics and math, doing problem sets also means you're studying. I don't know how biology courses are, because I haven't taken one since my freshman year, but I get the feeling that you don't get problem sets, and you don't have to hand in problem sets. That may cause one to procrastinate and end up cramming everything in at the last minute... As for having a life, I usually set aside a couple days a week to do stuff with my friends (Friday nights... after a long week, you gotta take a break) My life at the present time is very structured, very organized. I know what I need done at what time.

 

I think also the fact that I'm in something that I love also has to do with my success (so far). I spend a lot less time studying and worrying about exams than the average premed. That's cuz I go into physics and math exams extremely confident. And don't forget in 99% of physics/math courses we get cheat sheets or open books on our exams, so the basic rule is: If you can do problem sets, you can do the exams. I'm sure if I majored in biochem or something like that, I'd probably be dying right now... I'm glad I'm not.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***9/25/2000 6:47 pm*PST

*

Thanks for the info. As for the part about what classes I am taking mostly chemistry and biology are going to be my major science classes. This means I have to do a lot of reading for bio class(not a terrible amount but can be 4 to 8 hours a week of reading or preparing for bio exams) and reading and doing problems for my chemistry class(probably takes more time then bio class because I have to do homework and do practice problems on top of reading and preparing for exams) and also I am taking calculus 1 which is homework 4 days a week and is recommended that about 2-5 pages of reading before you should start the homework. Basically I have to read for all 3 of my classes and especially for chem and biology that can take an average of 6-15 or more hours a week just reading but it depends if I am caught up on the chapters or if I am well ahead, I have some weeks which are really bad and some, like this week, are farily ok because I really did a lot of reading the week before school started and the first week of school so I got a huge head start on reading. I don't cram because in calculus and chemistry that is something you don't do and its hard to cram reading assignments out of the biology, but I imagine if I did it would be worse on me since 50 percent or more of my total studying is just straight reading and understanding the material. I don't know how much time you spend reading but I would assume that physics classes aren't that much reading (only the intro are I guess which you already took as a freshman because you know the basics of physics) so therefore maybe you can afford to take more classes then I would be comfortable with(and maybe you can stand physics more then I can stand bio and chem even though I really like them and enjoy learning them). You are right about the whole tv thing, I only watch tv after I feel I have caught up on all the reading and homework material and studied for any quiz or exam. I think the problem with many college students is they don't know time management and they spend time watching tv instead of the studying that they should have been doing instead! I still don't see why you want to do so many things at once at least if you want to do so many things out of the classroom why not just limit your classes?

 

Do you think the biochem at your school for biochem majors is as hard or harder then organic chem? At my school I think its prefered for just chemistry majors (we don't have a biochem major program at our school) so Iam thinking its probably as hard or almost as hard as the one at your school for biochem majors.

 

Its good that you like physics, just as I like biology and chemistry but even though I really like them I couldn't imagine taking the amount of hard classes at once as you are, I try to limit it to no more then 2 or 3 moderately hard science classes(take a lot of mind power) at once. I also have found ways to try to organize my time like you said and I think people that are succesful do that kind of thing. I don't know what I would do if I never sat down and thought on this day I am going to do this and on that day I will do this, it would be more harder I think if I didn't do that. Well good luck on physics, I don't think its going to help or hurt your chances of getting into med school as far as picking the major in itself but because you like it it will help you because you are probably getting a higher GPA then if you were a Bio major or something. Just remember no matter how much you want to go to medical school it isn't everything in life and were young so lets enjoy life while we are young so if its hurting your GPA or taking time away from fun activities maybe you should ease up. I can't ease up because If I did I would be below the units to get financial aid and I wouldn't graduate in 4 years like I hope to, but it sounds like you can afford to ease up on the units your taking and there is no reason to load up on the amount of classes you are, unless you took a whole bunch of extra classes or something.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***9/25/2000 11:43 pm*PST

*

What year are you, Paul? You gotta remember that I'm from a Canadian school, so things may be different here versus there. For example, at my university, almost every freshman science student takes the same course load in the first year--Calc I and II, Bio I and II, Physics I and II, Gen chem I and II, and English I and II. There _are_ variations within each program... some may choose to defer physics II to their sophomore year, for example, but most complete it within first year, regardless of major. As for me, I did calculus in my sophomore year of high school (yes, you can call me a nerd... I was really into math in high school... did a lot of math contests and stuff), so I went in and wrote the final exam for calc I and got an A+ on my transcript. I did honors calc II in first term of first year and honors linear algebra second term. I also did french language and lit first term, along with english, physics I, and gen chem I. Second term, it was bio II (I had credit for bio I, but I'll probably go back and take another bio course just to satisfy the adcoms at various med schools), linear algebra, english II, gen chem II, and physics II. So as you can see, electives first year are very few and far between... In my sophomore, junior and senior years though, I take more electives.

 

For me, being a bio major would suck royally. I remember that first year bio course... I got like an A+ on my midterm and decided to take the rest of the semester off. I didn't go to class at times, and just let my bio book gather dust. Without problem sets to motivate me, I just procrastinated until it was time for the final... I swear I crammed so much into my head those last few days before the final... My A+ turned into a B at the end... I got like a C on the final, but I learned my lesson.

 

I don't know if the honors biochem is harder than orgo. I hear that it's pretty hard though. If I were you, I'd take it in my senior year, when GPA's don't count as much (or not at all).

 

Actually, I like all sciences. I was going to major in chemistry, but I just like physics so much more. You know, I was going to take one other physics class this term, general relativity, but I dropped it after the first day. It was just too much. See, even I have my limits.

 

I don't find my course load too heavy right now... My gpa isn't hurting that bad and I'm still happy with my social life.

 

If you're having trouble with calculus just email me... I love helping people out...

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Ian Wong, MS2

Date:***9/26/2000 5:32 pm*PST

*

I read somewhere in a med-related humour column that the smartest people in your med-school class are the guys that didn't do anything related to bio on their way to med school. I tend to agree, just because you have to really know your stuff to finish off a major, and still take all the pre-req courses and the MCAT, which are already done for you if you take biology/biochem as a degree.

 

The Chem degree people in my class really know their stuff, even though I still say they wasted four years of their life learning irrelevant crap. The same goes double for Physics and Math. At least in Chem you can make bombs or drugs.

 

Also, Biochem is usually a really time-intensive course. While there is some material that you can understand, and reason through, there's also a lot of dreck that just plain has to be memorized. This takes a really long time to do; cramming it in at the end is risky since there's a good chance you'll blank out on the final.

 

Ian

Can, MS2

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***9/26/2000 7:08 pm*PST

*

 

 

Ian Wong, MS2 wrote:

-------------------------------

 

 

The Chem degree people in my class really know their stuff, even though I still say they wasted four years of their life learning irrelevant crap. The same goes double for Physics and Math. At least in Chem you can make bombs or drugs.

 

Irrelevant? Yes.

Waste of time? No.

 

A bio major with the same credentials as me (same gpa, personality, etc.) is no closer to being accepted to med school than me.

 

Anyway, this is getting off topic... point is, I like what I do right now... and I'm in no hurry to go into med school. One more year though and I start applying... it's getting scary.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***9/26/2000 7:33 pm*PST

*

I have to agree with you both that your major is irrevelant but because moo seems to like it so much she probably has a higher gpa then she would if she was a biochem major or something so if its the only thing she is interested enough to get a 3.8 in I think she would be better off then fooling around with bio major and getting a 3.5 or whatever. I noticed that ivan and some others take a year of calculus I (couple require statistics too) so I don't see the point because calculus 1 is enough math for most schools and a couple in my state in the u.s don't even require that. Ive heard that calculus is probably the most useless of the prerequisites that you have to take to get in med school so why the heck would someone want to waste brainpower doing integrals etc in calculus 2, isn't calculus 1 enough you math nerds! I don't think I would do terrible in calculus 2 in fact I consider myself really good at math I just think its a waste of time and brainpower that could be used somewhere else unless your a physics major like in moo's case.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Ian Wong, MS2

Date:***9/26/2000 10:58 pm*PST

*

I think moo is actually a he.

 

As far as math goes, calculus is pretty cool, although you'll never, ever, not in a billion years and then some, see me voluntarily take calculus again. It's a great academic foundation, because it realy forces you to think, and turn your brain around concepts in a different way than most other subjects. The kind of Math that interested me was stuff where you'd look for inter-relationships, and try to manipulate formulas to make them do whatever you wanted. However, I haven't seen any shred of Math in med school, and I doubt I will. Most doctors don't do numbers.

 

That's a far cry from the memorizing, and cramming that you do in Biology or Biochem. I don't think it's possible to cram Math.

 

Ian

Can, MS2

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***9/26/2000 11:36 pm*PST

*

Yes, I am a he. You don't see that many female physics majors walking around wanting to go into medicine. (Even I have to admit, there ARE easier routes to go.)

 

I agree that calculus is the most useless prereq to take. But I was under the impression that you have to take it for your program, even if you're in bio. That's the way it is at our university anyway.

 

Please don't take the impression that I hate bio. I can't hate something that I plan on doing for the rest of my life. I have taken a lot of bio in the past (albeit in summer courses), including cell biology, genetics, and this year biochem, and next year a full year of human anatomy. I also have taken an interest in medical physics, which seems to be a very exciting field. And who says physics doesn't play a role in medicine.

 

Ian, this one's for you. You applied during your third year right? Did you take the stance that, if I don't get in, it's ok cuz I'll just finish my degree and apply again? I should have done the MCAT this past August. I am kicking myself for not doing it. Then I coulda applied this year and take a "practice run" at it. If I get in, great. If I don't, I can just finish my degree. Now I plan on doing it in APril, and start applying all over... basically schools in Cali, U of A, U of Calgary, schools in Ontario, McGill, and Harvard. Yep, I plan on applying to Harvard, just because it's Harvard. Actually, I plan on applying to just their HST program... which is an MD program for people with a strong background in physics, chemistry, or engineering (so that's me!). If I get an interview, at least I can say that I was interviewed at Harvard. Do you know anything else about this program? I got their catalogue, but it doesn't seem to say much about chances of acceptance.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***9/27/2000 8:02 pm*PST

*

I looked up on the website for harvard and they INSANELY require 2 years of physics which I could't believe. Not even stanford, university of san francisco or other top medical schools in the united states have any pre requisites like a year of calculus based physics and year of algebra physics. I may have misread it but it seems like the requirement was for all people applying to med schools and not just ones strong in chem or engineering like you said. I think they had some other stupid prerequisite on top of that. As you mention moo about taking the MCAT august of your sophomore year that is what I hope to do but I am wondering if that is too late or is the acceptance almost 0% because most of the spots in med school are gone by the time your mcat results come in? Maybe Ian can answer this question, I think I just asked it in another post today though.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Ian Wong, MS2

Date:***9/27/2000 9:57 pm*PST

*

The acceptance rate definitely goes down, because there aren't as many available spots. At the same time, everyone in the know applies earlier, so maybe there are less applicants applying later. (?) The standard philosophy I've always believed in regarding med school applications is to do everything as earlier as possible. It gives to time to fix screw-ups, and means that you aren't under pressure later. When you rush jobs, you tend to screw things up. You definitely don't want anything but your best impression showing in your application.

 

I would still apply, because I think interview experience is something well worth the one or two thousand you might spend. After all, the interview is the final hurdle to med school. Getting in one year earlier than you planned means you get out one year earlier and start working. It also means that you probably have less commitments and obligations because you are a little bit younger (I have infinite respect for the parents in our class.)

 

Ian

Can, MS2

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***9/27/2000 11:30 pm*PST

*

I think you were looking at their HST program, which is geared toward people like me. That's the program I'm interested in. I believe the prereqs are everything for the normal program (New Pathway) plus one semester of differential equations and a year of calc-based physics and a year of calculus. It's really a research-disguised MD program, from what I've heard, that's why you need all the math. Typically, 50% of their HST grads go on to get a PhD, but that's something I'm not really interested in.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Ian Wong, MS2

Date:***9/27/2000 10:01 pm*PST

*

Yep. That was basically my stance. In fact, at the time I applied, I was nearly dead-set against the idea of going in after third year. I just wanted the chance to get some interview experience. I didn't think that I wanted to vault into med school directly after third year, as graduating and then maybe taking a year off was looking very appealing. I had a change of heart once I received my acceptance letter, and right now, I couldn't be happier.

 

This is the reason I tell most people to apply after third year. This way, you know what the process is about, you might have obtained some knowledge about getting reference letters from professors, and if you're lucky, the chance to interview. Finally, who knows, you might get in!

 

As far as the Harvard thing, I have a classmate who went there for undergrad. I'll pop the question and get back to you.

 

Ian

Can, MS2

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***9/29/2000 5:41 pm*PST

*

Maybe I will apply after my sophomore year. If I do I will only apply to once school and its a private university in my state. Do you think there might be a advantage to trying private university after 3rd year vs a public university?

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Ian Wong, MS2

Date:***9/30/2000 3:09 pm*PST

*

I honestly have no idea. I think what you should do is call each school, and request their admissions statistics. These may, or may not be confidential, but if you can get them, you'll be able to see how your profile stacks up against everyone elses.

 

Ian

Can, MS2

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***9/30/2000 9:08 am*PST

*

Paul, I think that actually US schools are more strict on accepting students after only 2 years. Most require or expect a bachelors (by the time you matriculate) and unless you have exceptional qualities it is really difficult to get in.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***10/6/2000 8:38 pm*PST

*

I am taking calculus 1 which is all I plan on taking and is all that is required for general physics (calculus based) I was wondering which one type of physics is easier, algebra or the calculus version. I heard from someone that calculus one is easier if you know your calculus. I am good at calculus but Ive only been through 40percent of calculus 1 course so far but so far it doesn't seem that bad in fact I thought it was fairly easy so far but Im sure with physics added onto it it just may very well be different so thats why I need moo's opinion. I took algebra based physics in high school and I didn't like it that much compared to the other sciences but I did well in it but I always imagined using calculus would seem easier if you knmow it. My question is for a non-physics major who is fairly good at calculus which is easier to get an A in, calculus based or algebra based physics? I think Moo should answer this one since she is a physics major.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*moo, UG3

Date:***10/6/2000 8:54 pm*PST

*

Paul, first of all, I'm a he, not a she.

 

If you've taken first semester calculus (differential calculus) and you enjoyed it (or did reasonably well in it) then there's no reason why you shouldn't take second semester calculus (integral calculus). However if you're getting anything less than a B, I don't suggest you take integral calculus. I think the majority of students find calculus 2 (integral calculus) a lot harder than calc 1.

 

As for taking calculus based physics, you might as well have calculus 2 in addition to calculus 1. You see, the two courses are complementary to one another. If you only take calc I, it's like learning addition but then not knowing subtraction, or it's like knowing how to multiply but not how to divide. If you enjoy physics and math then by all means I think you should do it. Otherwise, if you don't want to do calculus 2, then you shouldn't take calc based physics.

 

For you, since you seem to enjoy calculus, I say take calc 2, and take calc-based physics. You should take calc 2 either before or concurrently with the calc based physics. It'll be a lot more rewarding, because you will be able to see and understand how the formulas were derived. In an algebra based physics course, the instructor will just flash a formula on the screen and you'll have no idea why that's true. But with the calculus background, you will have a truly fundamental understanding of nature's forces at work.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Author:*Paul

Date:***10/7/2000 5:18 pm*PST

*

I don't want to waste my time with calculus 2. Calculus 1 has already taken up too much of my mind power especially since calculus 1 is not even used on the MCAT or in med school. I figured since I had to take calculus 1 then I might as well take the easier physics. Since it seems you have to have calculus 2 i would rather forget the hassle and just stay with algebra physics. These math courses take too much time away from the important courses (chemistry,biology) for me so Iam not going to waste my mind power and TIME away from other classes on learning additional calculus and maybe doing it again in physics. Personally I think calculus based physics and calculus 2 would be very interesting but calculus 2 is much harder and I would rather be using my time elsewhere. I know you are a she sorry about that it was a typo.