Guest Dental Depression Posted April 1, 2002 Report Share Posted April 1, 2002 Hey there I just graduated from dentistry and I am currently practicing as an associate. At this point all I can say is I totally hate it! The patients hate you, hate coming to you and bitch about how OHIP doesn't cover the expenses (really...its not our fault!!). On top of the crabby ungrateful patients I really dont think I will be able to handle looking into people's mouths for the next 25-30 years. I am thinking about applying to medicine as that was my first choice in the first place (like 90% of my dentistry class anyway!). Has anybody applied after completing dental school or practicing as a dentist, anyone hear of such stories? Thanks alot, I dont mean to put down the dental profession, I think they play a very important role in health care but I feel that the drawbacks far outweigh the compensation etc for me anyways. Thanks again Zach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Zach, Man...I'm sorry you feel like that. My wife felt like that mid way through her obs/gyn residency...except it wasn't mouths she was tired of looking into...and talking about 'crabby' patients! Seriously, she eventually switched into family medicine...and she hated it much less than obs/gyn by the time she graduated (smile). Once she finished her residency and started practicing she realized that residency and medical school don't even compare. She's really enjoying herself. My advice to you would be (and take with a large grain of salt) to wait for at least 6 months to a year before ditching dentistry. I think you should apply to med school if that was your first choice...you'd have a huge advantage over other candidates in my opinion. Since the wait to gain entry to med school is the better part of a year anyway that would give you ample time to really introspect to determine what it is you want to do... I hope you find happiness...I know what it's like to be unhappy with such a central part of one's life. Be hopeful...even scary changes like this will resolve themselves for the better. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterPan Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Hi Peter I've read your advice here and there and I think you're alriight dude. Just wondering whats your story, were you an engineer or something before with Nortel? What made you jump on this path? Neat life you have lead! Good Luck to to, share your story I think it will inspire a lot of us out there I wish you the best "Live like you were going to die tommorow, learn like you were going to live forever" - Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 PeterPan, Funny, some of the bullies at my primary school used to call me that! Thanks for the kind words. My "story" is a very twisted windy one...but here it goes in as few words as possible so as not to use up the entire bandwidth of the net... I grew up in "La Belle Province", Ville Mont Royal, to be exact. I went to Vanier St. Croix Camput for CEGEP and found myself to be interested in both the physical sciences and psychology. I had a choice to make between hard science and psyche...and at the time, psychology seemed right as it gave me the balance between biological/human sciences and the fascinating investigation of human behaviour. I conducted human factors research in the Perception of Traffic Circulation for my undergraduate Honour's Thesis. During my undergraduate degree I met a wonderful professor conducting primary research and clinical services (not shrinkology) for individuals with Low Vision (e.g., decreased visual acuity due to many things like glaucoma, macular degeration, cataracts, combinations of these, etc.). I became fascinated with the research she was conducting, particularly because she applied learning from her research to patient care. I'm not the kind of person who enjoys doing research for the sake of building academic knowlege...I love applied research. Anyway, she ended up taking me on as a graduate student (M.A. Experimental Psychology, with a focus on Low Vision and perception). My graduate and thesis work was supported by NSERC. I worked at the Low Vision Clinic at the Royal Victoria Hospital assessing residual/functional vision in persons with Low Vision and also used the facilities to conduct applied research in the area. I truly loved this...the satisfaction of having someone come in who hadn't been able to read for 6 months due to cataracts and macular degeration...who had been told there was nothing more that could be done for them...and who walked out of the office in tears of joy reading again...gave me the most deep satisfaction I'd had in a long time. I realized that I had somewhat missed my calling as a physician, however, I seemed to be getting enough of what I liked working at the Low Vision Clinic. Unfortunately, after graduating from my master's program...it was all over...I had to find a real job that actually paid...and in Canada, unless you're a physician, you can't get paid for what I was doing. Interestingly, in the US, I could have got paid but I wanted to remain in Canada. I then linked up with another doctor, an Ophthalmologist who sub-specialized in cataract surgery. He personally paid me to assess and fit his patients with vision aids to compensate for their visual loss. This was heaven...in a private practice doing what I liked to do best. Unfortunately, a local group of Optomitrists (sp?) caught wind of the fact that I was providing people with specialized prescription glasses at cost (they had a monopoly and were selling older people on pensions, etc., the same glasses at about 700 buck a crack...I was providing them at about 100 dollars as profit was not the purpose...it was to provide a valuable and affordable service). Anyway, to make a long story short, they complained to the government and made it impossible for me to continue my work in Canada. Again, needing to have employment, I began working for a Pharmaceutical research company in Montreal, applying my research background to managing pharmacokinetic, bioavailability, bioequivalence and efficacy studies. I did this for a year and found myself not really enjoying it that much as it was detached from people. I then ended up moving to Ottawa to work for Bell-Northern Research (now Nortel Networks) as a human factors specialist in their central design group. I was essentially responsible for bringing together the physical and logical characteristics of machines (e.g., telephones, software, optical switches) with the physical, perceptual and cognitive capabilities of human beings. I eventually ended up managing a multi-disciplinary product design group, producing mass-marketed products in the telephony, optical, copper, HFC, and wireless domains. I did this for about 11 years. Throughout this 11 years I went through marriage, had two children, got divorced, watched my father go through long and painful death with a lovely combination of alzheimers, dementia and parkinsons. Last summer, with the demise of Nortel Networks, our entire division was laid off. I found myself in the fortunate position of having to think about what I wanted to do after an 11 year career. After having been divorced and prior to being laid off from Nortel, I met a wonderful woman (my current and last wife, for sure) who was a physician. Watching her go through residency reinforced everything I liked about medicine. Although, as I mentioned in another post, she had some difficult times, as I expect anyone going through the process does, I realized this was my chance to do it. Up until this point I had had too much responsibility and too much success in what I was doing to throw it all away to become poor again...but having been laid off and having gone through some pretty tough personal issues I mentioned above, made me realize I can do anything I put my mind to. So, I finally put my money where my mind has been and applied to medical school this year. Realizing that the application process is highly competitive and would take close to a year to complete...I found another job. I'm currently working as a manager at Statistics Canada conducting a national research project on behalf of Health Canada focussing on women's experiences of pregnancy, childbirth and early parenthood. So, one day, I received a package in the mail inviting me to an interview at the university of Ottawa! Yeah! I went to my interview...I think I did quite well...and here I am... Told you it would be long...and this was the abbreviated story! Anyway, I'm completely excited about the possibility of going back to school this year...I hope to see and interact with many of the people I met on interview day and in this forum...it's been a very refreshing couple of months...I've met some incredible people with fresh new ways of thinking...who are similar to myself...who have the same motivations, etc. I look forward to seeing many of you in September. If not this year, then you can rest assured that it will be the next, or the next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterPan Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Wow Peter That is really interesting, I guess you had a ton of interesting things to talk about during the interview I think with a background like that you will make an excellent doctor. Did you apply to Mac or anywhere else? I think one of the biggest challenges for you will be financing your education and living the life of a student but fer sure you will come out and never look back Out of curiosity, what are you thinking about specializing in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toothy Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 I wonder if D.Depression is for real, or a faker? It's really not so easy to tell... How about a quickie quiz Where is the ideal location for pins in restorations? Why is there a minimum isthmus width in preps? heh that might work to weed out some people. I was a bit suspicious because for the problem with OHIP complaints, statistics show 65-70% of dental patients have company coverage. So it's likely the 30-35% of the leftovers. And of course not every one of them will complain. If half get crabby, that's only 15-17% 1 out of 6 patients. Is that too much to handle? I also don't see how it took this long for you to discover that patients could be in a bad mood. Didn't you ever see that in the clinical years? Considering the fact that the time required for procedures in the clinic are at least 5 times longer than in the real world, I'd suspect regular patients to be easier to deal with. When I shadowed a dentist I didn't hear anything like that at all. Not to cast doubt on your desire to become a doctor, but if I was on adcom I might not be so accommodating to someone who spends 5 years and $100k to discover they made a mistake. Who'd read a poem by Robert Frost if he saw a fork in the road and took BOTH paths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Toothy, I appreciate the fact that this may not be a reaction you have or would experience, however, I personally know many medical students, residents and practicing doctors who currently or have at some point in their education had those types of feelings. My wife almost quit medicine several times and let me tell you she's no shlump...she was the gold medalist at Western in Genetics, she earned the highest award possible for Piano from the Royal Conservatory of Music, she was one of the best in her graduating class from University of Ottawa and currently receives scads of calls from physicians all over Ottawa looking for locums to the point where she has to turn down many great opportunities. All this to say, even someone who has achieved things better than most of us will ever hope to come close to achieving, can make poor choices or get into things that they really don't like afterall. One of the only reasons that my wife stayed in medicine was that she was literally trapped...after the better part of 11 preparing for and going through medical school and residency...not to mention 100K of debt or so...in many ways she didn't have a choice to finish. Thank God, because she really enjoys what she's doing now as it is so different than during residency and medical school. At the times she was thinking about quitting, she had an interest only payment of 500 dollars a month...if she had quit medicine she would have also been responsible to start repaying the principle as well. Think about it for a moment...her payment would have easily been over 1000 per month even at good interest rates...this is like a small mortgage! So if she quit...what kind of a job would have provided her with 1000/month (after taxes) for her debt plus at least 1000/month for somewhere to live...plus food, clothes, utilities, etc., etc. You don't just walk into a job like this...especially having very limited work experience. This individual may not be being honest...(my guess is that he is being completely honest because the story is so familiar to me)...but this is irrelevant really as I choose to support people because even if they aren't what they say they are...they obviously need support anyway as evidenced by the fact that that they would fabricate such an intricate story. Zach, you have my support...and I truly believe your story and experiences are true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 PeterPan, Thanks again for the kind words. It's people like you that provide that little extra motivation to embark on this journey...the face of medicine is truly changing. I am quite focussed on where I think I want to be in six years, however there are certainly some uncertainties...The most likely outcome is that I will be in Family Medicine and do an additional year in Emergency as I really like Emergency related work. There is a slight possibility that I would embark on the journey of becoming an Ophthalmologist but that would mean having to sub-specialize as I would want to do cataract surgery...my background in vision research and clinical experience in Low Vision really hooked me on this one, however, realistically, I'm 38 now...that would mean 9 years of education/residency and then a few fellowship years as well...I'm not sure at this point whether I want to committ to that...we'll see. The other possibility, of course, is that during my clerkship I find another specialty that I fall in love with...I guess I'll have to deal with that when the time comes! Realistically, whatever path I choose...I have calculated that you need at least 20 years of practice to make the investment worthwhile. With respect to funding my education...I hear what you're saying...I saw how my wife lived during medical school and residency. I've actually already secured a large line of credit which I plan on living with for the next four years until residency. I also have personal savings...which I can take advantage of. Since my wife is currently working, we have an arrangement to re-structure our personal finances to the opposite of what it was when she was in residency...i.e., we pay proportional to what's possible for each of us while still maintaining something that resembles our current lifestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toothy Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 PeterHill0501, I have only respect for your wife's courage, as well as your own ambitions. The difference is that your wife is strong and persevered through even the tough years of residency, and discovered her love for family medicine. D.Depressed has completed his degree and is thinking about throwing it all away. What about specialties, including Oral Surgery (in some schools grant a MD as well)? What about dental research? I agree that dentistry is often the "back-door" for unlucky meds applicants, but it is sad to hear that someone was unable to develop even an inkling of love for the profession which makes happy, beautiful smiles and allows edentulous people a second chance at enjoying gourmet food. Maybe I'm just humouring myself thinking he is unauthentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Toothy, Thanks for the reply. Until I heard some similar stories first hand I also had some degree of amazement, however, when you are closer to the underlying factors driving finishing once you're in it's really not that surprising. Have you never completed anything for the sake of completing even though you really didn't like it? I certainly have. What I extend to Zach is congratulations for having the perserverence to not give up until, at least, he was finished. Also, I'm not sure if I would conclude that Zach will ditch dentistry. Sometimes, as I felt near the end of my second degree, the last thing you want to do is more of what you've been preparing for and doing for the last umpteen years. I commend Zach for being honest with his feelings...we need more of this in medicine and other professions. The last thing I want is some unhappy dentist working on my mouth! On the other hand...if he applies to medical school...it takes time to get accepted even in the best possible cases...it might provide the time required to see the other side of a very taxing training process. Then again, perhaps it was just the wrong thing for this individual to be in...it's possible. With respect to my wife...she still contemplates quitting medicine albeit less often...it's a tough profession with long hours...constant learning...constant ambiguity...decent but not that great money if you really sit down and think about the expenses, overhead, taxes, staff salaries, call, training, hours, etc., etc., I think it's in order to think about individual differences here...you may think it would be "throwing it all away" if Zach quit...I wouldn't say that...he's learned a great deal...developed as a person...and could apply learning from Dentistry to a completely different field. I'm an Experimental Psychologist...I've applied my expertise to pharmaceutical research, primary vision research, cataract surgery research, low vision research, diagnostic test development, creating telecommunications end-user devices, optical switches, and most recently conducting national quantitative research with Stats Canada on behalf of Health Canada. I think we want rounded individuals with a bunch of different life experiences and skills in medicine. Also, the fact that you find "love for the profession" doesn't mean everybody else does...again, appreciate the diversity in life...it's really valuable. Why get so upset with people who choose dentistry second to medicine? Anyway, I appreciate your honesty and point of view...I just have other interpretations of the same situation. I don't mean to disrespect you...only to provide you and others who frequent this site food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephanie Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Hey Peter I totally agree with you, I think you show a great deal of maturity and understanding with regards to D. Depression's situation, and toothy I can totally sympathize with D. Depression and trust me they are not fake, I'm a dental hygienist and believe me insurance is not what it used to be. Alot of insurance we see only covers 40-50% of the procedure while our office manager has to chase the patient for the rest...thats when we hear about ohip!!! You would not know that shadowing the dentist you would have to shadow the manager at the front desk!!!! Now here's my story (I think its safe to say we all love ya Peter on this board ) I was a hygienist for 5 years post hygiene diploma which took 2 yrs and I went back and did 3 years of undergrad and was accepted at UofT meds, Mac meds and Queens meds. I accepted Mac with a 1 yr deferral, in order to work this year to save up more money. However now I'm having second and third thoughts. Why? Well I'm thinking about family meds and after the expense of Med school and setting up a practice, I dont know how things will work out. You see Peter as a Restorative Hygienist I earn $81,000 per year, I pay no overhead etc. I was wondering how much do family doc's typically make in their own practice settings (ie your wife or other friends that you know of) What percentage of that goes to overhead and what is the net income really like. I would love to find this out as it would really help me decide from a financial percpective at least I know the income is variable but what are some the offers from jobs and revenue from her own practice generated. Thanks alot Peter your the best and there is noone I'd rather see in med school next year than you! Cheers Stephanie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Thanks so much Stephanie, I would say if you work hard, and once you're established, it is possible to bring home (after taxes, overhead, ect.) 100K per year (while still maintaining a reasonably balanced life) based on my wife's income and other people we know in family medicine. It also depends on what you like/can tolerate. My wife's formula for balance somewhat limits her income...but that's her choice. Walk-in clinics are extremely lucrative...but then you don't get the satisfaction of developing relationships with patients and doing what I believe are the things which make up a great family physician. I know of one individual who only does walk-ins and clears 150K per year....and he's extremely happy doing that...he's also an excellent doc. I think it depends on your own goals, etc. I'll be leaving a yearly income of 100K+ per year to go back to medicine. My calculations indicated that money is a really poor reason to go into medicine...I'll break even after about 2 years of finishing residency, at best (and this assumes quite aggressive payback schemes). I'm going into medicine because it is my true love...my calling...if it's not this year...then it will be the next...or the next..as I've said in many posts. To sum up...I would strongly urge you to base your decision to train in medicine primarily on issues other than money...otherwise, you may find yourself being quite disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stephanie Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 Thanks alot Peter your the best to volunteer that information to me. Just one more small question, is that 100K after personal income tax, ie 200,000 income after office overhead and then deduct personal income tax (lets assume 50% tax rate) to arrive at 100,000 in your hand after paying revenue canada. If that is the case that is fantastic! I make 81,000 but after taxes I come home with 53,000 Thanks again Peter and you are right you have to follow your heart not your wallet to find true happiness I thank you once again for your excellent advice Cheers Stephanie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterHill0501 Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 That's after taxes. I wouldn't assume that it's 50% tax...I believe the figure is 50% of everything you make after some figure (75K?). I believe my wife puts away about 33% of billings for tax...you can also offset this figure substantially by maxing out your RRSPs. Not to depress you or anything, however, I think you also have to think about lost income during your 4 years of medical school (or 3 at mac) and then your 2 years (at least) of residency. You should also consider any debt you may accumulate as well. As I mentioned previously, it will take me about 2 years, minimum, to recover financially from my debt but this does not include lost income during medical school/residency. Something to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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