Are Life Science degrees useless?

[Guest LifeSci05]

Well, I don't quite mean "useless"...let me explain.

 

LifeSci at Queen's is essentially premed, and if one doesn't get into medical school, does anyone know what one could do with a LifeSci degree?

 

I'm under the impression that LifeSci degrees are just for meds wannabes.

 

 

I'm in LifeSci and I'm thinking of switching majors for this reason and other personal ones.

[Guest undergrad]

in terms of direct-entry undergrad degrees, it seems nowadays only business and engineering have a good shot at getting a decent progressive job coming out of school. Everything else is a bit tough unless you continue with a grad degree.

 

I remember at queen's some of the non-meds lifesci students were contemplating stuff like alternative medicine or nutrition etc. However the road for most was in grad research.

[Guest governorgeneral]

if you think you're up for it, you can apply to the military as an officer with any bachelor's degree. i think it's an option a lot of people don't even realise exists. true, you'd have to do another few years of "school" (training, etc) but your career (and your pay) start right from day one of training.

 

www.recruiting.dnd.ca/html/careers/index.html

[Guest Liana]

Well, biomedical programs certainly prepare you for research careers in the biomedical sciences as well (ie, via grad school).

 

However, most biomedical grads I know who didn't end up in grad school or medicine found relevant work experience in the biotechnology field or in the government. Most of the jobs are in quality control or technical support (where chem and micro experience are particularly relevant) or in sales. These jobs vary widely with respect to the level of challege, interest, and compensation they offer, but there are certainly opportunities out there. However, even if you never plan to get into academic research, having a Masters (in science or business) will certainly open a lot more doors in these areas.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Most undergrad bioscience 'BSc's are relatively "useless" without some sort of grad work. I'd doubt most employers looking to hire 'BSc's would make a huge distinction between the various degrees.

 

It is true that some bioscience grad programs require a degree in that specific field. I only know about the school I did my UG at - Dal, where I'm fairly certain their biochem department looks for undergrads who did biochem. Same might be true for Micro/Immuno. Thing is, there are tons of grad programs that have "few" undergrads graduating in similar undergrad programs. There aren't many undergrad physiology and pharmacology programs around - those programs usually take 'BSc's with any degree that's given them the proper prereq courses. So I'm pretty sure a lifesci degree could be used to get into grad programs.

 

Additionally, through classmates of mine who are lifesci grads I've met lifesci grads in other professional schools - in particular speach pathology and law. So a lifesci degree does not limit you to medicine.

[Guest b]

I agree with what's been said already. But the part of your post where you mention "personal reasons" is very telling as well .. If everything else points to some other field as being best for you, don't stick with life sciences just for getting into meds!

[Guest Beaver]

I have also heard of a lot of people go into teaching via teacher's college (there is a big demand for science teachers)

 

A few people I know went into Pharma sales

 

A few went and did an MBA with Co-Op ie. the health science MBA and now work in drug companies (legal ones) and Hospital management etc.

 

Law also has opportunities in patent law, or any tyoe if law you wish to practice, although a friend of mine who's problem preventing him from getting into med school was his verbal score on the MCAT said that the LSAT IS one big verbal and reading section, so that may not be option for some......but as you see there are lots of things that you can do

 

there are also college programs to go on to be a lab tech, or Michener with programs like Chiropody, Respirology etc.

 

So dont feel too sad if you dont get in to meds, there are other paths that are probably MORE travelled (since med school is so hard to get into)

[Guest]

For chiropractic you basically need the same thing as med school, except there isn't a standardized test and the cutoff GPA is 2.5. Check out the website.

 

http://www.cmcc.ca

[Guest Beaver]

Hi there

 

Through my Phd work, I have had the chance to do alot of research with neurologists and neuroscientists and I think I should pass along their very negative feelings about being a Chiro.

 

I don't know if you are abreast with several studies that neurologists have undertaken which are making big headlines lately, but there has been conclusive evidence that the neck manipulations done by chiropractors actually cause blood clots that if released into the bloodstream could result in serious strokes due to the close proximity of the neck to the brain. The findings of one study discovered that 87% of patients that came to a particular clinic in the US for stroke related complications had seen a chiropractor within the last year. This led to neurologists undertaking further studies of the types of work chiropractors do and from their findings concluded that chiropractors should be banned! Apparently the CMA and the AMA want to move ahead to try and induce a ban of the practice of chiropractors in North America. Who knows what the outcome will be, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be associated with that profession.

[Guest chiro]

Don't you think that a neurologist's or neurosurgeon's view might be a little bit biased.

I know a chiropractor and he has shown me quite a bit of evidence saying that there is a minute change of getting an embolism from cervical manipulations.

[Guest redblueNgold]

Hi there all, hope you don't mind 2 cents from a newcomer! IMHO, I don't think think that ANY degree from ANY Canadian University--even the ones that don't immediately conjure up pejoratives like *prestige*, or *elite* (you know: the "Ivies")--can ever be useless.

 

No matter what designator is affixed to your undergrad degree, all it signals is that you were able to constantly take on new projects throughout 4 long years, and accomplish it at a level that met the exacting standards of a *university*. It really doesn't get any more real-world than that!

 

True, certain self-made individuals, cynical of their own academic training, and with the ability to hire people, certainly seem to equate "real-world" skills with pure *vocational* training (a programming language, theory of economic production, etc..). But really, an employer who cares only about how you "work" and not so much about how you "live" isn't one you want to work for is it? Can you really ever recover the opportunity cost of going to school basically for nearly 25 years for the goal of "working"?

 

But still on the topic of economics, if job training were really the goal, the best choice is simply to go community colleges; on a program-by-program comparison, it almost always offers a more direct-route to that first job. But yet, degrees have always commanded a PREMIUM over diplomas...why? You'll have to draw your own conclusions here...

 

In foreign nations, the trend towards these "useful" degrees backfired pretty badly. In essence, becoming degree factories. I'm sure we're all aware that except for a handful of countries, a *foreign* degree carries ZERO significance here in Canada. I'd like to think that open-minded way of thinking will ensure that knowledge for knowledge's sake will ensure that OUR degrees will continue to carry WEIGHT for a long-time to come.

 

Remember, as soon as you start discriminating against your OWN degree as USELESS, I guarantee you somehow, you'll find a way to make it so. After all, if you truly think your qualifications are useless, do you think you'll be able to extract anything convincing when searching for a job? Wouldn't your problems really begin there? Worse, if you do find a job and somehow make it into a position of power, won't you be discriminating against people who completed similar degrees?

 

Anyways, this may have seemed like a "positive-thinking" mantra but really, the "useless" degree idea is too dangerous to let anyone believe it. Those are my thoughts on the matter...I'm curious to see how it bounces off you. Any thoughts?

[Guest PeterHill0501]

redblueNgold,

 

This is one of the most thoughtful and intelligent perspectives on higher education I've seen in a very long time.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> No matter what designator is affixed to your undergrad degree, all it signals is that you were able to constantly take on new projects throughout 4 long years, and accomplish it at a level that met the exacting standards of a *university*. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

Although I'm not sure about "exacting standards"...yes, this is one of the significant accomplishments of any degree obtained. As you move from bachelor, to masters to Ph.D. this accomplishment is yet reinforced again.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> But really, an employer who cares only about how you "work" and not so much about how you "live" isn't one you want to work for is it? <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

You absolutely do NOT want to work for any company that doesn't care about balance. This is one of the reasons I worked for Nortel for 11 years. They WERE one of the best employers with respect to balance between excellent productivity at work as well as excellence in personal/family life. I believe this is how they have retained great creative staff and maintained productivity. Unfortunately, for Nortel, other factors they totally missed has contributed to their current state of demise.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> But still on the topic of economics, if job training were really the goal, the best choice is simply to go community colleges; on a program-by-program comparison, it almost always offers a more direct-route to that first job. But yet, degrees have always commanded a PREMIUM over diplomas...why? You'll have to draw your own conclusions here...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

I absolutely agree with the first part of this statement but am somewhat at odds with the second part. My experience over the past 13 years of working absolutely indicate that if you want to make more money a community college diploma is the way to go. I was one of about a half a dozen individuals from amongst my childhood friends to go to University. Interestingly, the "University Goers" make significantly less money than the "College Goers". I believe one advantage, strictly speaking about remuneration and working conditions for a moment, of going to University is that your working conditions tend to be much better than people who train for a vocation like plumbing, construction, etc...people in these trades work much harder and have, in my opinion, far less balance in their lives than those who get a degree.

 

I personally believe you get way more out of obtaining any University degree. The first thing you get which money cannot buy is a wealth of experience, the ability to train yourself how to learn. People who train for trades, do so for one primary reason...to get a job. People who attend University, again in my opinion, are training themselves to learn. I can tell you after "learning the trade of telecommunications equipment research, design and manufacturing" and having been laid off after an 11 year career...that I'm glad that I know how to learn and not just how to design phones, optical switches and software! By the way, I have a Masters degree in Experiemental Psychology with a specialization in perception and vision research...I created an R&D company in the summer...sold my shares...and am now working for Statistics Canada...and hopefully leaving that career to begin learning once again in medical school this fall...only a few more weeks left until it hits the fan!

 

I believe the other main advantage of University is it gives you life experiences that others don't get...you meet people with common interests...creative people who open your mind up to new ways of thinking...new ways of doing things...new experiences that you never would have thought of trying out. This became completely evident during my FIRST marriage. You see...I'm divorced...I married a woman who WAS very beautiful at the time I met her...but who had not chosen the path of University...and I believe this was the demise of our marriage. As years went by, I grew...experienced new things...she did not. During our marriage we thought fundamentally differently about basic issues and philosophies of life. It didn't seem that important to me at the beginning, however, as our life continued to 'develop' together, it became evident that we were from different planets. Thankfully, she chose to have an affair and simplified the decision of whether to be together or not. The "second time around" I chose a woman who not only is beautiful, but who also went to University (she is a family doc, graduated from U of O last year). The difference in how we argue and the similarities in how we approach challenges are striking! This is some of the stuff that University, regardless of your degree, provides you with that no amount of money or glory can replace.

 

Anyway, I've rambled on a bit too long on this subject...thanks for providing another perspective redblueNgold!

 

Oh, and THANK GOD (actually, my parents) for providing me with the opportunity to complete my "Useless" degree!

 

Peter

[Guest Champ]

Dear PeterHill,

 

I am a firm believer the the value of a university education (been in it for 10yrs), however, I am not sure I agree with your idea that people choose university are doing so to train themselves to learn. While that is the mature perspective, I am sure that the average 18 yr old entering university is not trying to train themselves to learn. Rather, I think that a teenager chooses University for a variety of reasons (good grades, parents, want to be a professional, get away from home), but most importantly the strongest motivation is that they feel that in order to get a good job somewhere, they will need that piece of paper. In my opinion, the intrinsic benefits of aspiring towards and attaining a degree are the product of the university education but not one's motivation to do it.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I would also say that I wholeheartedly disagree with your comments regarding renumeration, working harder and less balance in college graduates. There is no real empirical evidence to support this. In terms of remuneration, while college goers may start earning at a much earlier age, are you convinced that amortised over a lifetime of work they will earn more than the engineers, doctors, chartered accountants, computer programmers, pharmacists and bankers? In terms of "hard work" I assume that you are referring to physical labour (vs hours spent dedicated to work) because if not, I think the the "hardness of work" really depends on the person. The issue of balance is also one that I think may be one that is not entirely clear. With or without a university degree I think balance is something that both doctors and plumbers can have to the exact same degree. All isssue completely education-independent.

 

On a final note, in terms of the people you meet. University is definitely a place to find and interact with intellectually minded people, however, one cannot assume that attendance to a university bestows a higher level of intellect, because it doesn't. You can have equally thought out arguments with non-unversity educated people who simply read alot!

 

 

Not sure where this leaves me on the value of a university education, but I guess if you have the time, money and inclination then you have everything to gain by going.

 

 

champ

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Champ,

 

Thanks for the reply. You raise some great points which I believe I'm in agreement with...perhaps I didn't communicate my thoughts effectively or fully:

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am a firm believer the the value of a university education (been in it for 10yrs), however, I am not sure I agree with your idea that people choose university are doing so to train themselves to learn.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

I absolutely agree with you, however, regardless of the motivation to obtain university training...or what people believe they are going to get out of it (as evidenced by the fact that someone here has asked whether a particular degree is 'useless')...I believe one of the primary gems is that you learn how to learn which results in flexibility. Flexibility is the stuff that allows one to adapt...perhaps University is the seed for intellectual Darwinian evolution?

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> Unfortunately, I would also say that I wholeheartedly disagree with your comments regarding renumeration, working harder and less balance in college graduates. There is no real empirical evidence to support this.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

I think I should have qualified this...the people I know who went the trade route are making far more money than I will ever make...I should add that their success is largely dependent on their creativity and intelligence and not necessarily because they decided on a trade. Do I know a representative range of people who take this route? Probably not. I guess what I was saying is that if you want to make bags of money and you are intelligent then a trade or starting your own business is likely the better route. I apologize for the previous sweeping generalization...it was unrepresentative and unwarranted.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> In terms of "hard work" I assume that you are referring to physical labour (vs hours spent dedicated to work) because if not, I think the the "hardness of work" really depends on the person.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

We may have to agree to disagree on this one...but let me qualify my answer somewhat. I do believe that people who are university-educated will most often find themselves in better physical environments than those who go the trade route. I also believe that those who don't go through university more often find themselves in manual labour types of jobs (which I personally find hard!). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that...and many people find it extremely satisfying, however, I don't prefer hard manual labour jobs. Is working 14 hours a day at a desk/intellectual job hard...absolutely...but, for me, much less difficult than working at a hard manual labour job for the same amount of time...

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> The issue of balance is also one that I think may be one that is not entirely clear. With or without a university degree I think balance is something that both doctors and plumbers can have to the exact same degree.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

I think you're right on this one, however, I think...again...people with university educations tend to end up in jobs which allow a bit more flexibility. At the end of the day...you are right...balance is achieved by desire to do so.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> University is definitely a place to find and interact with intellectually minded people, however, one cannot assume that attendance to a university bestows a higher level of intellect, because it doesn't. You can have equally thought out arguments with non-unversity educated people who simply read alot!<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

Again, I totally agree with you. I guess I'm talking more about trends. About half of my friends stopped going to school after High School (Ottawa) or CEGEP (Montreal)...I have extremely intellectually challenging discussions with most of them. Not everyone who goes to university is intelligent...likewise, everyone who doesn't go to university isn't non-intelligent. I think, however, people who go to university do have some traits in common (be it intelligence, interests, or whatever). I don't personally judge people on whether they're academically educated or not...I hang with people who are fun, creative and flexible.

 

Thanks for your point of view Champ...it was very thought-provoking.

 

Peter

[Guest Champ]

Peter,

 

Well I think we are in agreement to a certain extent.

 

However, I guess the proof of your theory about hard-work really comes to light by the simple fact that both you and I are in some type of job that allows us the time to type long responses on this forum.

 

That is however, assuming that you are working (I am in the UK and it is 1:30pm) now!

 

 

take care and good luck with your applications.

 

PS. did you apply to UT?

 

champ

[Guest PeterHill0501]

Yes champ...I'm working at Statistics Canada...I'm in Ottawa. Actually, I wrote the post to you from home... 8)

 

Cheers...and have a good bitter on me!

 

Peter