nursing

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<threadtitle>the fourth year: do I have some flexibility????</threadtitle>

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<title>the fourth year: do I have some flexibility????</title>

<pagetext>Hey guys and gals: thanks for reading and hopefully answering:

 

Here's my scenario:

 

I'm in my third year of pre-med.

 

I will finish this year and would be happy to have these three years as my three years of eligibility for applying to the ontario medical schools.....

 

so do I have to be a "full-time" student for the fourth year if I don't intend to use that year as a year of an eligiblity? Or can I just take a half-year, etc????

 

My specific desire is the following:

 

Do my fourth year on a student exchange... through this process I actually hope to get transfer credit to finish my four-year degree (perhaps even with the honours).....so my question for the gurus on this site is..... from the med school perspective, will this count against me?

 

Since they say they need only three years... i would assume this is true.... am i wrong??!?!

 

thanks again :hat :smokin

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Your situation largely depends on two factors: 1) to which Ontario schools you aim to apply; 2) the year in which you apply.

 

Regarding factor one, the majority of Ontario schools will not really care if your final year is less than full-time. Queen's will use your best two years at least, Ottawa will use your best three, UWO will look at the two years which were above the cut-off and McMaster will look at all courses taken whether they are within a full-time year or not. UofT is the only school that (I believe) will regard your application differently if you have one year that is less than full-time.

 

Regarding factor two, if you apply after third year, then the UofT issue may be irrelevant as long as they continue to accept applicants with a three-year degree, as opposed to a four-year. (Wasn't there a rumbling that they would only be accepting Honours degree students, or has that been implemented already? :rolleyes ) Good luck.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest justanotherpremed]

Kirsteen:

 

Thanks for your, as always, prompt and insightful response. Here are my clarifications:

 

1) all five

 

2) I have applications in right now and I would be applying next october

 

If you have any additional guidance, it would be much appreciated

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi again,

 

Well, if you have your applications in now, hopefully they succeed the first time around so that this will not be a worry in your future.

 

As to policies, aside from what I've mentioned above (UofT being the only school where a less than full-time courseload would currently matter), a caveat would be that school policies have been known to change from year to year. It's largely unknown as to what those policies will be next year. Sorry, but I have little more insight to shed as, I'd love to have one, but I haven't yet gotten my hands on a reliable crystal ball.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest aneliz]

UWO will not care if you are less than full time in your final year (this is new as of the last two application cycles...so if you hear differently, you may be receiving some outdated information). However, you must have two full time years that are both independently above the minimums for GPA. If you are confident that you have satisfied this requirement already (ie are confident that 2 of your first 3 years are high enough) than it doesn't matter. But, beware that you will not be able to use your GPA from your fourth year at UWO if it isn't a full time year.

[Guest mitchie41]

Hey Kirsteen:

 

Where did you hear the rumour that UofT will only be accepting honours students in the future?

 

 

 

 

Thanks.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

I'd read the tidbit somewhere, although sorry, I can't recall where exactly. That doesn't say much for the integrity of the information, does it? So, I wouldn't worry about it too much at the moment, until it appears in the print either, on the UofT website, or in the latest iteration of the OMSAS document.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I heard a similar rumour for UWO - that they were debating only accepting 4 year honours degrees for admission. This is still very preliminary, I don't think they've acted at all on it, but it has been brought up. . .

[Guest aneliz]

Every school is constantly looking to 'adjust' their entrance requirements.... there has been no change in requirements at UWO so far....and it would take several years to come into effect if there were to be a change. Don't worry, you would get about two years advance warning before any change became effective.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

True. There was a comment made in an official but unrelated e-mail to the 2005 that this was being considered, but I haven't heard anything substantial yet.

 

Still, it doesn't hurt to do an honours degree at this point. . .

[Guest justanotherpremed]

Okay, while we're talking about honours.... I have an important question:

 

FOR going into grad studies - either the M.SC. or the PH.D..... do you guys know if they only usually select students with the honours b.sc..... or they also accept people with the normal four-year b.sc.

 

Specifically... i'm talking about grad studies in cell biology and related health sciences type grad studies.,..

 

if you guys could post specific programs you know to have this or not have this requirement of the honours degree... PLEASE POST

 

thanks so much as always:smokin :hat

[Guest PerfectMoment]

i don't think this was ever really brought up... but i was wondering what the typical timeline was for admissions... does it go a little something like this:

 

year 1:

-intro courses, yadda yadda

 

year 2:

-ochem and biochem and whatnot

-then study during the summer after 2nd year and take the MCATs during aug.

 

year 3:

-barely receive the MCAT scores and send in an app for admission into whatever med school(s)

-if MCAT scores are good enough, you receive interview invites and whatnot

-if scores are not up to snuff, retake the MCATs during April.

 

year 4:

-anxiously await acceptance, all the while taking your 4th year classes

-if there is no acceptance, reapply again for the next med school class

 

sound about right?

[Guest Ian Wong]

Yep. A more detailed timeline (well, actually my own) can be found at the original website here:

 

www.premed101.com

 

Ian

[Guest Steve U of T]

"FOR going into grad studies - either the M.SC. or the PH.D..... do you guys know if they only usually select students with the honours b.sc..... or they also accept people with the normal four-year b.sc."

 

I've been told the U of T Institute of Medical Science allows students with 3 years of undergrad and 1 year of medicine into a direct-entry PhD (usually for the purposes of the collaborative MD/PhD), so an honours degree isn't necessary. Otherwise, all graduate departments at U of T that I'm aware of require a 4 year degree, although at U of T, any 4 year (20 credit) BA/BSc is an honours degree. U of T doesn't offer a 4 year regular BA/BSc. They used to offer a 3 year (15 credit) BA/BSc, but last year was the final year you could graduate with that. Now it's just the 4 year honours. I suspect a 4 year (20 credit) degree will be sufficient for any U of T graduate degree, whether or not it's honours, since U of T doesn't make that distinction.

 

Perhaps U of T is trying to raise their standards at the undergraduate level by getting students into more intensive programs (more evidence is that you can no longer earn an honours degree by completing a triple minor), and the faculty of medicine is following suit by considering the move to requiring a 4 year degree before entry.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

I had the choice, when I "upgraded" my 3-year UofT B.Sc. to a 4-year to opt for the 4-year designation or the Honours. At the time, I spoke to a number of UofT congnoscenti and they all agreed that the two designations would be viewed equally, especially since I had completed a specialist program, as well as a minor, and a couple of fourth-year research projects. I opted for the 4-year and thus far, it has caused nary a problem. That wee degree got me into the M.Sc. Epidemiology program. Overall, I wouldn't worry about the designation too much, unless the programs to which you apply have some oddball requirement that is encompassed in some specialist Honours programs. :rolleyes

 

Also, there used to be at least one other UofT graduate degree that did not require a four-year/Honours undergraduate degree... the Executive MBA. I'm not sure if that's still the case, though.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest UWOMED2005]

The U of T distinction between Specialist and Honours has always confused me. I thought the Specialist degree was an Honours degree with less electives, ie more specialization in the subject?

 

My understanding is that most schools offer Majors (or no Majors) and 4 year Honours programs, and then combinations such as Combined Honours or Double Majors. Some schools then also offer an "Advanced Major" or "Advanced Double Major" degree that is 4 years, but without the final year honours research project/mini-thesis that is required for an honours degree. And then there is this "specialist" dealio offered at U of T that the U of T grads in my class will rant and rave about, but I'm not sure anyone else understands either. (:b just poking some fun at U of T.)

 

My further understanding is that for MOST graduate programs (ie MSc, MA, or PhD,) the requirement for entry is USUALLY an honours degree in that area. This is, however, waived for some programs that are so specialized there are very few undergrad programs out there that specialize in the same area (ie pharmacology, zoology, epidemiology, physiology, media studies, etc - most universities don't have these as undergrad majors.) You just have to show you majored in an associated area of study (ie English for Media Studies, Poli Sci for International Studies, Biochem or Bio for Pharmacology or Physiology) with a few extra appropriate course requirement (ie Physiology might require a major in biology to have taken some physics.) OR, some programs are now accepting Advanced Major degrees (or whatever schools are calling their 4 year major but non-honours degrees) depending on the circumstances.

 

There is also an exception is made for some people (ie mature students) who for some reason or another are deemed appropriate. The Journalism School at King's College had a member of their faculty who had NO degree whatsoever. . . he'd entered the faculty as a prof with professional experience in journalism when there was no need for a degree, and he taught for years that way. He recently completed a Master's without a bachelors, getting acceptance based on his work as a university prof.

 

Medical Schools, Law Schools, and MBA programs are NOT graduate schools in the traditional sense of the word. (At least, many of the priveleges we get at UWO - parking, admission to the grad club - are at the undergrad level.) These are all PROFESSIONAL schools that set their own standards. So while GRAD schools might want a 4 yr honours degree, a Law School or Med School can ask for only a 3 yr degree, or even just 2 yrs of school (which was the case not all that long ago for medicine) if they want. But they also have the right to ask for a 4 yr honours degree if they change their mind. . . hence my posting that message that UWO might change requirements in the future.

[Guest Steve U of T]

While most schools offer majors and minors, U of T offers specialist programs in addition. Generally, a minor is around 4 required credits, a major is around 8, and a specialist is about 12-16 required courses. So when a U of T students talks about being a specialist, that refers to their program of study, and not their degree. Fourth year research projects are available for most programs, although they're generally not required to complete the program, so perhaps a U of T specialist program isn't equivalent to honours programs at other schools, since those require a research project.

 

An honours degree at U of T is earned by completing either one specialist program, two majors, or one major and two minors (and also making up the balance of 20 total credits, and I think you need a cgpa of 1.7 or higher). Until a couple of years ago, you could do 3 minors.

[Guest purine5]

Hi everyone~

hope you had great holidays

 

I am currently doing my 1st yr undergrad in UT

 

I have been thought about doing life sci major in 2nd yr

but having gone through the 1st yr...

I wonder ending up with science degree,

is the right path for me. I have heard these horrible things

from ppl with Science degree: after ended with science degree, go to college to get another diploma to get a job

 

I never thought of myself ended up as a scientist at lab. (I don't think I can handle that later)

 

Nowadays I am thinking about applying to nursing program

offered at Ryerson.

Everyone probably heard about its job securitiy and salary and other good things of nursing.

 

since it seems to cover all the interesting stuffs I like

(psychology, how people get sick, anatomy, blood, more

human interaction)

 

Do you think it's ok to pursue RN-BSN instead of bachelor of Scinece as premed? I heard it's possible to do but still i am worried...

[Guest UWOMED2005]

So are you saying U of T (specialist) students are less well rounded than other schools?

 

With 12-16 courses all in one area, and prereqs, where is the room for electives in history, physics, poli sci, economics, and the like? You know, the stuff that ensures you're not that guy at a cocktail party who can talk for hours about molecular biology, but looks blankly when someone mentions Stalin's relationship with the West, Relativity and its relationship to the atomic bomb, whether the NDP is a sustainable political party in the 21st century, or whether the University of Chicago school of economics has had too much influence in the last 30 years.

 

And on a serious note, I seem to remember needing more than 8 credits for a major at Dal. Isn't it amazing how non-standardized this stuff is? It's so hard to keep it all straight, especially considering how many universities there are across Canada. Next time a U Vic grad says to me "yes, my name is Joe Bob Shabidoo the III and I did a triple superspecialist with quadruple honours in Rocket Science, Neuroscience and Complicated Chaos theory Calculus" I think I might need to interrogate him on exactly how many courses it takes to get a triple superspecialist with quad honours at U Vic. . .

 

And no wonder the med schools don't care what course of study you took. I wouldn't want to try to keep all this straight either!

 

. . . and are you sure about the 1.7 cgpa for honours?!? I think I remember getting less than a 3.0 in a single honours required course jeapordized your chances at Dalhousie. . .

[Guest Steve U of T]

I wouldn't say U of T students are by default less well-rounded than at other schools (although there are some who are pretty bad). When I said there are 12-16 required courses (I checked, and the undergraduate calendar describes the range as 9-17.5 - close enough), not all those courses are on one subject. All prerequisites are included, as well as courses from various other departments, and there is a considerable amount of choice. For example, I am in the physiology specialist program, which includes the basic sciences (bio, chem, math or physics) in first year and 1-2 electives (depending on whether or not you take both math and physics, which is recommended, or just one of the two). Second year has one physiology course, along with molecular/cell bio, biochem, organic or physical chem, calculus or physics, and again, 1-2 electives. Third year has a little less freedom, with physiology lecture and lab courses, biochem lab, more molecular bio, and a choice from a bunch of 3rd year science courses from an outside department (e.g. microbiology, pharmacology, toxicology, immunology, pathobiology, zoology, etc.), and only 1 elective. Fourth year requires only 2.0 credits of 4th year physiology, leaving 3 electives. Of course, the physiology department in particular offers so many incredible 4th year courses, so I'm taking more than the required. They are all joint undergraduate/graduate courses, and are really interesting. I just started a course in sleep physiology that has 2 MDs (residents) as students because it may be important for their practice, but the material isn't covered in medical school.

 

Although the courses differ (mainly in upper years), the structure of the program is fairly typical of a U of T life science specialist program. I think the bare minimum of required courses should leave the student well-rounded in various life sciences, with a great deal of knowledge on one particular subject. There are plenty of electives, so those who choose to be truly well-rounded by studying literature, philosophy, history, politics, etc., can do so freely, and may even be able to squeeze in a major, or at least a minor. The narrow-minded people who would otherwise refuse to take a non-science class for fear of getting a low grade are forced to complete a distribution requirement, meaning science students must take at least one credit of humanities and one of social sciences, although it should probably be more.

 

Also, I checked, and the cgpa requirement is actually 1.85 to graduate. Keep in mind, the honours degree is now the standard arts & science undergraduate degree. U of T no longer offers a regular BA or BSc, so if the gpa requirements were higher, a lot of people wouldn't be able to graduate. A U of T honours degree is definitely not by default equivalent to a Dal honours degree, although depending on the program, it may be.

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