Guest gonzo23 Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Hello, I never realized how much there was to learn about a career in medicine. I am looking at foreign schools since my chances in canada are slimming. So, my main concern is landing a residency back in the US. I've heard Canada is very difficult but the US is manageable? Is this correct? Now, would I have to complete a residency in the country I study in? Or could I finish my education, and then write the USMLE step 1/2 and to TOEFL, and then once I'm successfully through those, then apply for an American residency? Or would I have to complete 2 residencies? One in the country I study in, and then another in the US? I'm really trying to get a good handle of the processes so I can see if it's worth applying to international schools, or whether I will be setting myself up for years and years of work trying to get back to the US. Any info. would be great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevetilley Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Lots of FMG's (Foreign Med Grads) manage to score U.S. residencies. For example, you could go to one of those caribbean schools, write your USMLES, do some rotations in the U.S., and your likelyhood of getting into a US residency would be pretty good. However, there are (at least) 2 caveats: i) You definately won't have top-pick of specialty (i.e. plastics or derm would be that much harder to get). However, I'm sure you could make your way into internal or family or perhaps gen surg, or lots of other specialties, in the U.S. without too much trouble. ii) From what I gather, there is a much greater spectrum of quality of residency programs in the U.S. (i.e. some are amazing, and some suck). If going to an foreign med school meant you could only get into a U.S. program that was at the bottom of this spectrum, that would suck. This being said, I'm sure that there are many excellent FMG's who have placed at outstanding residencies in the US, and will make fine doctors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest moo Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 Just how does Carms work exactly? As a future American grad, I want to do my residency in Canada so as to maximize my future career goals (i.e., doing a residency in Canada and going back down to the US would be easier than the other way around from what I gather). It seems that matching in Canada is a lot harder because of more government controls over spots. Is it routine for a Canadian grad to apply to different programs in different specialties? (e.g., like applying to several medicine programs and maybe a couple derm) It's uncommon to do this in the US. Also the Canadian match is two months before the American one. Is it at all possible to rank American programs higher than some Canadian programs or are you essentially ranking all Canadian programs higher than American programs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 It is quite common for Canadian grads to 'back up' their top choice discipline with something else (usually family, internal med or gen surg). This is especially true of people gunning for the very competitive specialties like derm, ENT and ophtho. Given the very limited number of spots in these specialties (like ~8-10 in the country) and their desirability, the competition is huge and, to avoid being unmatched, most people applying to one of them would also rank a back-up discipline. People gunning for less competitive specialties also tend to have 'back-up' specialties fairly often as well. It will be fairly difficult to land a Canadian residency position as an American grad. I assume that you are a Canadian citizen that is attending a US med school? (if this is not the case, it is going to be virtually impossible to get a residency position) Canadian grads of US schools are now eligible to apply in the first round of the match....but last year, not too many of them were very successful in matching...seems that Canadian program directors are a bit skeptical and would rather fill their programs with grads from the Canadian schools... As for ranking programs, only Canadian programs are ranked in CaRMS...so you can't rank an American program higher... you will rank all of the Canadian programs that you have interviewed with and feel that you would be happy being a part of....then the computer will spit out your 'match' or tell you that you are unmatched. If you are unmatched, you will be able to go into the US residency match...provided that you got your US applications out in time..you don't have enough time to get US apps together for the same year's match after you find out the results of CaRMS.... BUT...and this is the kicker, when you rank Canadian programs, you sign a legal document stating that you WILL GO to any program that you match to....so if you DO match in CaRMS, even if it is your absolute last choice program, you can't then bail out and go to the states.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest moo Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 Thanks for your reply... Yeah, I'm a Canadian at a US school right now... Do you know what PD's base their ranking of candidates on? I mean in the US you have your board scores and such but in Canada all you have are reference letters and maybe grades right? In my school which is strictly P/F first two years and H/P/F last two, there isn't much to go on. I'm in the US right now but I do have personal reasons for going back to Canada. Actually I want to be in Vancouver/Seattle area, that's why for example I would rather match at for instance U of Washington over somewhere like UT or some other program in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elaine I Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 Aneliz, FMGs are now able to apply to CaRMS in first round?? Wow! I am interested in Family Medicine. I figured that since I definately want to practise in Canada, I shouldn't even look at foreign schools. Do you know if any grads of Caribbean schools have been successful at matching in family medicine residencies in the first round? Thanks, Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 You will have to check with CaRMS for sure...from what I remember being presented to our class last year, CaRMS was willing to let Canadian citizens that had graduated from American medical schools (not Carribean, Irish, Australian, etc) apply in the first round of the match starting last year. However, I don't believe that any of the American grads that applied actually managed to match. So, even though it was theoretically possible for a Canadian grad of a US med school to get a Canadian residency in the first round, it didn't happen last year. That said, there were family med residency spots left empty after the first round last year...so if family is what you want, you probably have the best chance of getting a family residency spot versus any other specialty. But, DON'T count on it as a certainty....for a couple of reasons: 1. Canadian programme directors will likely continue to favour Canadian grads 2. CaRMS may change the rules at any time.... 3. The number of Canadian grads is going to be increasing over the next few years....meaning that the ratio of residency spots: grads will likely be 1:1....this means that for you to match, your will be displacing a Canadian grad who will then be unmatched....program directors would be aware of this and would likely not choose to leave a Canadian grad unmatched for the benefit of an FMG.... 4. Matching is a large part 'who you know' in Canada....reference letters are absolutely key. We don't have board exam scores like in the US, most don't have marks from med school (most schools are H/P/F or P/F)...so your reference letters, being known to the program through doing electives and your interview are key. This will be a bit harder coming from the states and I imagine that Canadian students will continue to have an edge over FMG's in this area. As well, program directors familiarity with your undergraduate curriculum may also sway their decisions...(more comfortable taking grads from a school/curriculum they know...) Given the smaller number of med schools in Canada, all of the programs are pretty familiar with the curriculum at the various schools.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gonzo23 Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 Alright. So then what about being an IMG and wanting to go to the states? Where are all these Irish/Australian med. graduates going in the end? Where are all you out there? Speak up Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest moo Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Sorry for hijacking your thread... I believe most Irish/Australian/Carib grads end up going to the US. Take the USMLE and rock it, that's all I have to say. As for American grads matching back to Canada, I've seen one or two match at UT from my school's match list a few years ago (in peds, dunno how competitive that is in Canada). Granted it may be difficult but in all honesty, how many American grads apply to Canadian residencies? I last checked CaRms and they said like 17 or something applied last year. And like half of them withdrew because they presumably liked an American program more. How many Canadian grads are there in total? Something like 1200? I don't think American grads are taking up spots for Canadian grads. And no, I have no intention of doing FP, esp with the debtload I am incurring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest phantom8 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Here in Calgary, we are STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to back-up our first choice specialty. So yeah, most people will apply to more than one specialty. Quite frankly, I get nervous thinking about the CaRMS match now even though it's still a little ways off for myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gonzo23 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 I am more just surprised that there are no Aussie/Irish grads (or soon to be grads) out there who can directly speak of their experiences. I'm not discounting your advice. I do appreciate it. hey moo. from your experience, do you think that a 7v on the MCAT would completely screw me for admission into the states? I have a 28Q and a 3.84 gpa. I really don't think I can improve the verbal score by writing the MCAT again, since I really thought I had a handle on the section this time around! Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aneliz Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Moo, I agree with you that US grads aren't taking up Canadian spots right now....but that will change over the next few years when the number of Canadian grads increases so that the ratio of residency spots: Canadian grads becomes 1:1...this is not the case right now. As for US grads matching UofT...yes possible, but until last year, these people would have had to have matched during the SECOND iteration of the match. They are now eligible to enter the first.....and the competitiveness of peds is pretty middle of the road most years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Well, peds is usually a little more than middle of the road in terms of competitiveness, but the point remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest moo Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Gonzo, a 7 won't preclude you from schools... most US schools don't have strict cutoffs, although this varies widely. YOu might have difficulty getting into a top 20 school but you might have a chance at others. Still, a 28 is a little on the low end. I do know of someone (canadian) with a 6 in VR (but pretty much aced the other two sections plus a sky high GPA) who got accepted to Vanderbilt. Looks like getting a residency spot period in Canada is tough period. Here in the US "backing up" your specialty choice is seen as being uncommitted and is almost never done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gonzo23 Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 So Moo, Are you at any advantage having studied in the states for getting a US or Canadian residency? Or are you in with the IMGs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest moo Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Well I can get a US residency no problem. I'm at a top 20 school (although I really don't think rankings are that big a deal). As for Canadian residencies, I'm not officially considered IMG in the provinces I want to practice in but who knows if I'm actually at a level playing field with Canadian grads. Only time will tell I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Technically, I think things are looking up for Canadian born US med school grads. . . I think you've been allowed in the first round of the match for the last year or two. I'm not sure, though, how programs RANK US grads. Interesting situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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