Why don't more Canadians apply to the states?

[schumpeter]

It's much less competitive than Canada where 4.0 can't even secure a spot. When you graduate you're a CMG and get 1st match in residency. Sure there's high tuition, but cant you just get a bank loan for that? You're going to make 6figures anyways. Why don't more people apply to US then come back? There's gotta be a catch...

[Mashmetoo]

It's much less competitive than Canada where 4.0 can't even secure a spot. When you graduate you're a CMG and get 1st match in residency. Sure there's high tuition, but cant you just get a bank loan for that? You're going to make 6figures anyways. Why don't more people apply to US then come back? There's gotta be a catch...

 

Lots of people apply to the States. In fact, over 1000 in 2011. The problem is that the acceptance rate is ~10%. Only 106 Canadians actually matriculated in US MD schools in 2011.

[apache]

so 106 of the 10 percent of 1000, or 106 of the thousand...

 

honestly, im asking the same question at this point... cause well i could of went to a top us school instead of a lynch mobbing by wolves watching the sheep... well, could of... i suppose past tense and present tense can mutually exist... grammar works, lol

 

also, thereès the fact that getting good marks and acing the usmle, plu social intelligence mean something, beats nepotism, pass fail crap, and having your student rep tell you to sue the **** out of your school, then leave the ed department, when you cant even get off the registrar... inactive... yeah, morality makes people do some crazy things, and unfortunately knowing a bunch of bio doesnt mean i cant isolate someone for some civil fun... more fun when i triple my documents via whoring myself out for legal costs... yeah, no one likes a liability, or someone whoès incompetence bleeds money, o well... im really looking forward to going somewhere where effort seems to count a bit more

 

Lots of people apply to the States. In fact, over 1000 in 2011. The problem is that the acceptance rate is ~10%. Only 106 Canadians actually matriculated in US MD schools in 2011.

[Mashmetoo]

so 106 of the 10 percent of 1000, or 106 of the thousand...

 

honestly, im asking the same question at this point... cause well i could of went to a top us school instead of a lynch mobbing by wolves watching the sheep... well, could of... i suppose past tense and present tense can mutually exist... grammar works, lol

 

also, thereès the fact that getting good marks and acing the usmle, plu social intelligence mean something, beats nepotism, pass fail crap, and having your student rep tell you to sue the **** out of your school, then leave the ed department, when you cant even get off the registrar... inactive... yeah, morality makes people do some crazy things, and unfortunately knowing a bunch of bio doesnt mean i cant isolate someone for some civil fun... more fun when i triple my documents via whoring myself out for legal costs... yeah, no one likes a liability, or someone whoès incompetence bleeds money, o well... im really looking forward to going somewhere where effort seems to count a bit more

 

damn you and your superior verbal reasoning skillz lol.

 

106 is the 10% of the 1000 applicants.

[apache]

oh ok, for a sec i was like wtf, 10 percent grad rate... this is worse than the caribean, lol

 

damn you and your superior verbal reasoning skillz lol.

 

106 is the 10% of the 1000 applicants.

[deathvvv]

$$$ is also an issue. Most us schools nowadays cost you 300K+ for 4 years. Not everyone can afford to locate that much cash or wants to take a decade of debt to fund their education

[affyuser]

Lots of people apply to the States. In fact, over 1000 in 2011. The problem is that the acceptance rate is ~10%. Only 106 Canadians actually matriculated in US MD schools in 2011.

 

Well the 106 doesn't include the Canadians who got offers from both American and Canadian schools and picked the latter right? I know several people who did just that for the huge difference in tution and staying closer to home. So I guess the acceptance rate in American schools for Canadians should be higher than 10% once they are factored in.

[Mashmetoo]

Well the 106 doesn't include the Canadians who got offers from both American and Canadian schools and picked the latter right? I know several people who did just that for the huge difference in tution and staying closer to home. So I guess the acceptance rate in American schools for Canadians should be higher than 10% once they are factored in.

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/321502/data/2012factstable21.pdf

 

10char

[apache]

wow, the us marks suck... money, believe me, there's always a creative slution to every problem, if i had a dollar every time i heard we can't do that sir and was allowed to do it i could prob buy a 3g piece of **** car, lol

 

uniue interests, the right patron, so to speak, mdphd route in something someone wants to fund... lol, honestly, if you really need something and ask enough people, you eventually get a yes, the hardest part is opening up to new possibilities.

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/321502/data/2012factstable21.pdf

 

10char

[deathvvv]

Not as simple as that. Yes its true that if you have a "Mcdonalds or Medicine" attitude then yes ull find a way. There are no free rides in this world. If you get funding or alternative routes (i.e. MD/PHD) from somebody there is always a cost. Some people may not want to pay those costs. Simple as that.

[EngGirl]

There are a few reasons:

 

1) You cannot apply to state schools. Only private schools - which are often more competitive.

 

2) Private schools tend to limit spots to international students. The system has a strong preference to US schools.

 

3) If you are going to pay $200,000 in tuition alone, why not apply to Australia or Scotland that are much more favourable to Canadian students.

 

That being said. US has AMAZING MD PhD programs, only a few US schools take international students. But you get to do an MD and PhD for free - and they give you about 20K a year to live on. I applied (and was promptly rejected) to the Harvard MIT joint MD PhD last year - best rejection letter ever.

[Mashmetoo]

There are a few reasons:

 

1) You cannot apply to state schools. Only private schools - which are often more competitive.

 

2) Private schools tend to limit spots to international students. The system has a strong preference to US schools.

 

3) If you are going to pay $200,000 in tuition alone, why not apply to Australia or Scotland that are much more favourable to Canadian students.

 

That being said. US has AMAZING MD PhD programs, only a few US schools take international students. But you get to do an MD and PhD for free - and they give you about 20K a year to live on. I applied (and was promptly rejected) to the Harvard MIT joint MD PhD last year - best rejection letter ever.

 

............

[Dayne67]

Why don't more Canadians apply to the states?

 

For one thing, it's not the easiest thing to gain an acceptance here. You do need to be a solid applicant who has at least a 3.6 GPA and 32+ MCAT.

 

I also think that there is also suprisingly quite a degree of ignorance of the US MD degree. A lot of Canadians don't know that the US MD = Canadian MD on many levels. As such, they apply freely to the Caribbean and Australia or Ireland without giving much consideration to the US.

 

And of course, the cost can be prohibitive for some as well.....

[apache]

honeslty i would love to do an mdphd in the right field... but well, lets say i've whored myself out for cash and or resources before, lol

 

Not as simple as that. Yes its true that if you have a "Mcdonalds or Medicine" attitude then yes ull find a way. There are no free rides in this world. If you get funding or alternative routes (i.e. MD/PHD) from somebody there is always a cost. Some people may not want to pay those costs. Simple as that.

[Alastriss]

I'll jump into this one.

 

First of all, careful with the statistic. 106 matriculated, but you have no idea how many were accepted. My educated guess is that a significantly higher number were actually accepted but few took the offer since they probably got accepted at canadian schools and opted for that.

 

Secondly, you are and you aren't considered a CMG. You are in the sense that you don't have that stigma of being an IMG, you compete in the first round, but you aren't in the sense that canadian programs will always want canadian grads first even if you've come from harvard simply because we know what the education here holds. It's a comfort thing. This is doubly so for some of the competitive programs like ENT, vascular, ophthalmology. Often times your referees and those going to bat for you are known to the committee of various schools because the communities are just so small. So you aren't, for all intents and purposes, considered one equal footing as a CMG.

 

Regardless, it's a fantastic option and you have better access to the US residency spots than a canadian grad. I would put this option over going to scotland, ireland, australia, or carrib without a doubt. It really is no question.

 

Gaining an acceptance in the US is easIER, but I wouldn't say easy. For example, I gained no acceptances from the US (probably because I applied and interviewed late), but I obviously got into Canada.

[apache]

i guess i also meant, entrepreneurial ways, like, say you live in the us, sell orlistat to canada via ebay... i guess seeing easy moneys has never been difficult for me, but the problem is im so adhd, i get bored... i love to be travelling, writing, doing, learning new things, meeting all kinds of people, staying at home for a day is like the worst torture you could ever force onto me, so i could never be one o those types that sits around a beach... then again, it would false to assume im the nerdy academic type too... opposite that... lol, yeah i know what you're saying though, i tend to date girls that are more into the kids at 40, adoption, after the completely crazy party mdphd phase, lol ... i know others are diff tho, and that my mesolimbic systems well, lets say weird at best

 

Not as simple as that. Yes its true that if you have a "Mcdonalds or Medicine" attitude then yes ull find a way. There are no free rides in this world. If you get funding or alternative routes (i.e. MD/PHD) from somebody there is always a cost. Some people may not want to pay those costs. Simple as that.

[mountainaxe46]

I'll jump into this one.

 

 

 

Secondly, you are and you aren't considered a CMG. You are in the sense that you don't have that stigma of being an IMG, you compete in the first round, but you aren't in the sense that canadian programs will always want canadian grads first even if you've come from harvard simply because we know what the education here holds. It's a comfort thing. This is doubly so for some of the competitive programs like ENT, vascular, ophthalmology. Often times your referees and those going to bat for you are known to the committee of various schools because the communities are just so small. So you aren't, for all intents and purposes, considered one equal footing as a CMG..

 

 

I don't agree with this assessment. Certainly, there is some unfamiliarity beteween the two systems, the real reason is that Americans rarely apply to Canada for residency? why should they? they are more in debt, and have more and better paying options in the US. Lastly, you can't apply to Carms and the American equivalent in the same year. You're excluded if you accept one vs the other. I am sure Americans would be treated no different.

[Alastriss]

I don't agree with this assessment. Certainly, there is some unfamiliarity beteween the two systems, the real reason is that Americans rarely apply to Canada for residency? why should they? they are more in debt, and have more and better paying options in the US. Lastly, you can't apply to Carms and the American equivalent in the same year. You're excluded if you accept one vs the other. I am sure Americans would be treated no different.

 

Might I ask what level are you at in your training? I'm currently writing this from a hotel room as I go through the CaRMs tour.

 

In a competitive specialty (which I once upon a time was gunning for), it was not infrequent for other programs I visited to make mention of people I worked with. In fact, many of whom would have been my referees for residency were people known by the admissions committee at other schools. Imagine you have finished your training and you are considering an applicant who has a referee from a guy who was in your class. Would you trust a guy you know or some referee who you don't (the case if you go to the US).

 

This is not even considering the fact that the national meetings you to go for research, the electives that you do as a canadian and the time you spend in clerkship automatically give you more facetime with the powers-that-be for residency selection.

 

Secondly, each candidate is trained at a canadian school and residency programs will favor candidates from their own school or region inevitably (not always true, but true enough). Candidates trained in a canadian system will generally have it easier when they go abroad.

 

The last piece is just familiarity. There are a lot of doctors who will lump american grads as IMGs when they are clearly not. They just don't know better.

 

What I was saying is that a canadian grad will have slightly, yet sizeably better footing than an american grad and doubly so for the very competitive specialties. However their chances are still great, very close to CMGs, and much much MUCH better than an IMG.

 

You are incorrect about applying to both ERAS and CaRMS. You CAN apply to both, and since ERAS virtually always comes after CaRMs, it would just mean that you can rank carms all you want and if you go unmatched you still have the american match to fall back on.

[Flame219]

Might I ask what level are you at in your training? I'm currently writing this from a hotel room as I go through the CaRMs tour.

 

In a competitive specialty (which I once upon a time was gunning for), it was not infrequent for other programs I visited to make mention of people I worked with. In fact, many of whom would have been my referees for residency were people known by the admissions committee at other schools. Imagine you have finished your training and you are considering an applicant who has a referee from a guy who was in your class. Would you trust a guy you know or some referee who you don't (the case if you go to the US).

 

This is not even considering the fact that the national meetings you to go for research, the electives that you do as a canadian and the time you spend in clerkship automatically give you more facetime with the powers-that-be for residency selection.

 

Secondly, each candidate is trained at a canadian school and residency programs will favor candidates from their own school or region inevitably (not always true, but true enough). Candidates trained in a canadian system will generally have it easier when they go abroad.

 

The last piece is just familiarity. There are a lot of doctors who will lump american grads as IMGs when they are clearly not. They just don't know better.

 

What I was saying is that a canadian grad will have slightly, yet sizeably better footing than an american grad and doubly so for the very competitive specialties. However their chances are still great, very close to CMGs, and much much MUCH better than an IMG.

 

You are incorrect about applying to both ERAS and CaRMS. You CAN apply to both, and since ERAS virtually always comes after CaRMs, it would just mean that you can rank carms all you want and if you go unmatched you still have the american match to fall back on.

 

Alastriss is spot on. I'm a Canadian studying in the States right now, and I'll add that for Canadian US grads who want to come back to Canada, because of the disadvantages mentioned above, they'll often try to bridge that competitive gap by doing a number of electives in Canada, with the goal of getting those letters from referees in the field.

 

Also, someone above mentioned the income differences of working in the States. REALITY is, for the most part aside from the most lucrative specialties, Canadian doctors have comparable income to those in the States. It's often a headache for physicians in the States to deal with the various health insurance plans and that really brings more hatred than love in its forms of payment. Even if you argue otherwise, Canadian doctors get paid comfortable enough that there is enough incentive to apply and practice in Canada even with the high tuition debt.

[apache]

Yeah, I agree with most of this for sure, although I think you have to heavily network with North of 49th for sure.

 

 

I also agree that it depends on how "good" of a US student you are, if you to Stanford and get Alberta Bandura to write you a reference letter, plus some other 2 big wigs who present at the same elite conferences... by this I mean theyre the headliners, know eachother etc. (like one of my profs I did research for was the 2nd best researcher in her subfield, and like, everyone knew everyone, I'd be sending e-mails to Austrailia, random **** like that, with that kind of persons ref letter for a biopsych research program I'm sure I could have gone whereever, since I'm pretty solid all around, but that's icing on the cake... just like in medicine, like you said.)

 

I don't really have an interest in Canadian residency programs, so that's out of the question for me, but like, my CV is so stacked in one discipline, since day one of undergrad, that I know I can get into that specialty wherever really, and I think it would be the same case for someone like say Macbook whose been doing eye research since way before he's even seen med, and probably a lot of contact in the field already (I just mention because obv psych... anywhere isn't competitive, but I want the top US programs, whereas Optho most places is pretty competitive... so that makes them a little more fair comparison.).

 

I think people assume American applicants couldn't get into Canada, but that's not always so, if I hadn't gotten sick during apps times, I can almost guarantee I'd have added at least Mac, going 3/3, the other ontario schools are a crapshoot, so I won't make an assumption, but yeah. I think the overall sentiment is the US is a great choice if you want to work your ass off, and 2 more times for good measure... and if you have a non Canadian admissable background, it's a great option, like I said, if you work your ass off, which all depends on the individual. So, like everything I go on about, it all depends.

 

I'll jump into this one.

 

First of all, careful with the statistic. 106 matriculated, but you have no idea how many were accepted. My educated guess is that a significantly higher number were actually accepted but few took the offer since they probably got accepted at canadian schools and opted for that.

 

Secondly, you are and you aren't considered a CMG. You are in the sense that you don't have that stigma of being an IMG, you compete in the first round, but you aren't in the sense that canadian programs will always want canadian grads first even if you've come from harvard simply because we know what the education here holds. It's a comfort thing. This is doubly so for some of the competitive programs like ENT, vascular, ophthalmology. Often times your referees and those going to bat for you are known to the committee of various schools because the communities are just so small. So you aren't, for all intents and purposes, considered one equal footing as a CMG.

 

Regardless, it's a fantastic option and you have better access to the US residency spots than a canadian grad. I would put this option over going to scotland, ireland, australia, or carrib without a doubt. It really is no question.

 

Gaining an acceptance in the US is easIER, but I wouldn't say easy. For example, I gained no acceptances from the US (probably because I applied and interviewed late), but I obviously got into Canada.

[apache]

See, you know what I love about the US, the pay is a lot more merit based, and I know that in at least one discipline, well, I think I'm decent, across the board though, if I waas say joe bloe gastro-enterologist (of which I'd definitely be below the belt in my skill set... haha, that was good) I'd take Canada anyday, great pay, no lawsuits, easy government billing.

 

Yeah, have fun suing me, If yoou are one of my more lucrative learning disability clients (I know, knowing neuropsych eval, and tangental knowledge is sick eh, you can do way more than hand out pills, and rich clients love that.) uhh, I doubt you'll have any incentive.

 

If you're one of my insurance billed depersonalization patients, who might also have substance abuse problems (see enjoying what you do is fun too, the prior pays, and the latter is interesting (moreso than seeing psychotic patients and doing the same thing everyday and never having to learn or really achieve success and change many lives) I'll go out of my way insanely to help, but, believe me, I know how to keep notes so that your credibility can be questioned if you try and sue frivolously.

 

See, best of both worlds... more money, and less (well actually more, but less than the average american doc) suing, plus I get to use stuff like Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) for people whose past has shaped a borderline-type personality, and be paid, unlike in Canada, where despite showing equal efficacy to CBT, the gov dictates the limits of my practice and punishes me because I work harder to learn about things besides bipolar, schizophrenia, and anxiety... throw this at any psych for sun, three psychopharm mainstream treatments for depersonalization (one they should be able to guess intuitvely (they'll prob guess ssri's, which is one, but the guess that's a result of probability, not inuitive theoretical understanding (naltrexone)... lamotrogine works sometimes too, as does my fave wonderdrug, clonazepam, but often, depends on the subtype of depersonalization (primarily biological, secondary to faulty visual processing... hey hey hey, I know about that, etc.) yeah, I don't think Manitoba psych would reject me if I ever wanted to be in Canada, but yeah, if you're that kind of candidate in field x (ent cowboy, doing inner ear research first year, ent surg research on rats or some ****, whatever the **** they do, in your second year nserc... think you'll be cool.

I don't agree with this assessment. Certainly, there is some unfamiliarity beteween the two systems, the real reason is that Americans rarely apply to Canada for residency? why should they? they are more in debt, and have more and better paying options in the US. Lastly, you can't apply to Carms and the American equivalent in the same year. You're excluded if you accept one vs the other. I am sure Americans would be treated no different.

[Lactic Folly]

Hey, nice paragraphs muse!

 

I agree on the Canadian referees... a candidate may have references from well-known people south of the border, but unless the letters are personalized, it's hard to know if everyone gets a similar letter... whereas it's easier to form a baseline of elective supervisors in Canada who tend to write multiple letters each cycle.

[apache]

lol, thanks, ever since deciding to go to a diff school, my overgeneralization of frustration to all of medicine from one person to everyones really gone down, and this new med dose totally is improving my non verbal working memory, pretty crazy how an extra 10 mg makes a huge diff.

 

Hey, nice paragraphs muse!

 

I agree on the Canadian referees... a candidate may have references from well-known people south of the border, but unless the letters are personalized, it's hard to know if everyone gets a similar letter... whereas it's easier to form a baseline of elective supervisors in Canada who tend to write multiple letters each cycle.

[apache]

lol, thanks, ever since deciding to go to a diff school, my overgeneralization of frustration to all of medicine from one person to everyones really gone down.

 

inversely consideration for a medical forums general population has rapidly gone up, lol.

 

plus this new med dose totally is improving my non verbal working memory, pretty crazy how an extra 10 mg makes a huge diff, so i don't forget what i'm saying right away if i stop relating it to another concept...

 

yeah, seriously, it's just impossible to make generalizations... certainly, probabilistically... the generalizations are pretty straightforward by this, but every case is different. personally, i get to know half of my profs, treat them like friends, and i think it's more acceptable than average because it's obvious i'm talking to them out of interest, and my enthusiasm is reflected in the level of complexity of say a question i ask if i'm going for help. if you're authentic, genuine, very very hard working, profs will help you on a personal level, because after a while, you develop an almost collegial, and in many cases a level of friendship (which isn't necessary like their best buds their own age, but definitely at that point where you enjoy someones company not because of necessarily identical life interest, but because theyre a good person. Like to me, this is a norm, and I know a lot of students who've never been to a single office hours, or have trouble getting research oppurtunities... but for many people, they take on the defined roles they perceive and which are projected, like, when i see my adhd doc, if i disagree with a theory she has about something, i def express it, same with profs... but many are blown away by this, since they have stereotyped roles with social scripts for appropriate levels of interaction, and rules for social communication, and without knowing those can be modulated, what I'm saying sounds crazy.

 

i guess in the end, my ref letters end up being insanely personalized, but i don't think that's the norm, honestly, i wouldn't know cause i wouldn't ask unless i knew someone extensively.

 

and of course, while top us profs may be well known, the canadian med community is smaller, so you may not need those kind of letters, and like you said, forming a base is much easier.

[Tacrolimus]

https://www.aamc.org/download/321502/data/2012factstable21.pdf

 

10char

 

I wish I lived in US.