Guest Cathy Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 I have heard alot of people taking about how if they dont get into med school they will just go and do dentistry. From looking at the dental school websites, their averages seem to be similar to med school. It looks like its just as hard with alot of applicants. I was just wondering why people generally think they will be accepted to dental schools when the requirements are very similar to med school. Thanks Cathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ML Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 I remeber reading somewhere that the two dentistry schools in Ontario and ALL dentistry schools in Quebec don't require interviews--just personal profile forms. So, maybe dentistry is easier to get into if you have few pre-reqs but good grades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 In Canada, I think the competitiveness for dental school is equal to medical school. Both professions have a very limited number of seats available compared to the number of applicants each year. I think a lot of the people who apply to both medical and dental school and have the credentials to be accepted at one profession are also likely to be accepted into the other. I know of at least one person in my class who was accepted into both UBC Medicine and Dentistry in the same year, and ultimately chose medicine. Ian UBC, Med 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bad hombre Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 I"m in second year and still choosing between dentistry and medicine, so i've done a bit of research into the admissions processes for both. Dentistry in Canada is a lot harder to get into than in the states, as Ian has mentioned. for example, the mean GPA of the latest entering class at U of T dentistry was 3.81 (albeit an 85+ = 4 on their scale). Still, marks count for a lot when applying to Ontario schools. The evaluation scheme for ontario schools: Uof T: 70% GPA 20% Interview 10% DAT Western: 60% GPA (OMSAS scale) 25% interview 15% DAT Other schools want more proof that you truly want to be a dentist, i.e. shadowing one or doing research or volunteer work in one of these areas. The good thing is that most schools don't require all the essays and stuff that med schools require. Just give em your transcripts and DATs and then see if you make the cutoffs for the interview. McGill asks for a mini essay and a couple of "letters of reccommendation". These are really just survey-like evaluation forms two science profs fill out. I've heard that the admissions people really look out (negatively) for people that appear to be looking only for money and for those that view dentistry as a "backup plan" for meds. If either of these apply to you, then I suggest you try to hide it by doing some dental-oriented volunteer work. Obviously this is kinda sorta unethical but what the hell, you have to do something with your life if you don't get into meds. Good luck everyone, hope this helps someone. ... oh, and the post above is WRONG... U of T, Western, and McGill ALL REQUIRE INTERVIEWS, i.e. why do you want to be a dentist? etc. I have heard though that these are no where near as nerve wrecking as the meds ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cathy Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 Bad Hombre Do Dentists really make that much money that people go into it only for the money and admission people have look out for these people. That's interesting I thought they made a modest salary given their huge overhead costs any insights would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bad hombre Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 Dentists do make great money. I think they have the second highest mean income out of all the professionals in Canada (after physicians). But if you take into account the hours dentists work compared to physicians, dentists may actually make more PER HOUR than doctors. So with those extra hours you can spend time with your family or run a side business etc. Also, earning potential is very high if you have good business skills etc. Some practices make over a mill a year. The hours are great, there's a lot more independence compared to medicine, you can start working a lot sooner, it takes a shorter time to specialize, etc. So there are a lot of reasons to get into dentistry if that's your thing. MOney would definitely be a deciding factor for some people. But you have to remember that eventhough you can be making half a mill a year by the time you're thirty, you have to LOVE what you do or inevitably you'll wind up being miserable. Also, a dentist friend once told me that if your primary goal as a dentist is money and then helping people, you'll never achieve either goal. However, if you're main objective is to help people, and THEN make money, you will invariably attain both goals. But I think I'm going off on a tangent right now. I'll just leave it at this: Yes, dentists have awesome income potentials, but in the end it's not about the money (all that much). cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 Hi there, I've seen a couple of sides to dentistry... I play squash with one dentist who runs a small, rural practice and has decided to take the time to tackle the hygenics appointments himself, etc. He said that he's happy making what he's making and is pleased with the size and focus of his practice. Coincidentally enough, one of his classmates (from UT) also happens to be my family's dentist. This guy is quite the astute entrepeneur. He decided to do a specialty in anaesthesiology and now runs one of the most successful dentistry practices in the city which specializes in knocking folk out, in case, for example, you may want to take care of your teeth but have an abject fear of the dentistry experience. My dentist, I'm positive, pulls in well over 7 figures and the offices (which are staffed by multitudes of dental hygenists, dental aesthetists and support personnel, are open from Mon.-Thurs. only. Incidentally, I visit the dentist regularly (2x per year for hygiene appointments) but haven't seen this guy in greater than 3 or 4. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dental diane Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 I graduated from dentistry 3 years ago and you guys/gals have know idea how expensive it is to run a dental practice. Most practices ar impressed when you tell them your overhead is only 65% of your total revenue. The average overhead costs are 70% which means 300,000 in gross revenue becomes 90,000 net income for the dentist, then after tax that is 65,000! Even for a person with a fancy office and tons of hygiene staff etc, that stuff costs a fortune. Dental Hygeinists make 80,000 per year, assistant 30,000 and nurses 50,000 (if you have anesthesiology in your practice you are required to have these). So these costs add up including the enormous start up costs. So your flashy dentist may make 1,000,000 a year but his costs probably leave him with 300,000 and his after tax take home will be 150,000! Just something to think about before you jump into dental school And that's the Tooth! Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jase133 Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 Dental Diane is absolutely right. The overhead for medical doctors is somewhere in the range of 40% I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the figure I obtained from my family physician). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest strider2004 Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 I've seen account reports of successful dental practises pulling in over $1.6 million with the head dentist receiving over $600,000. I also spoke to my friend in dentistry who says that a successful dentist should be pulling at least $1 million into their practice. This takes business sense AND hard work. Everything can make money if you're an entrepreneur, including medicine so it's not always wise to choose a career just for the money. Anything makes money if you do it properly. Talk to a financial planner/accountant for advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dental Diane Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Strider I would love to know the reference to that report. If you have it please post it for me. Additionally your friend is currently in dental school and therefore does not know the realities of actually being out there and practicing. If you go to the UofT website you will see practices for sale from retiring dentists, not one grosses over 500,000 and out of that you have to pay overhead. Im sure its possible but your associated overhead would increase with the increase in gross. As far as dentists salaries, there is a reason why the provincial average is 120,000. And for new associates who graduated just starting out the salaries in toronto are competitive at 70,000. Not too high conseridering the costs of dental school. Each year tuition 17,0000+instruments 10,000+labs3000+books etc. So the bare tuition and instruments each year are 33,000. That doesn't include living expenses or books. Pretty steep. Just some points, I hope I'm not being to Gummy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Hygenists make $80,000 annually??? Man, what was I thinking going into med school? Ian UBC, Med 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest re Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 10000 worth of instruments each year??that's crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bad hombre Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Dental Diane, thanks for the info, i wasn't aware that overhead was THAT high for dentists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dental Diane Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Hi everyone Sorry, I dont mean to discourage anyone from going into dentistry, after all I do it and I love it but I just think it is important that prospective students understand the pros and cons before making their decision. As dentists its the costs that are the problem. Each of our scalars (the thngs we clean plaque and calculus of your teeth with) can run $600-2000 a piece (hence the instrument fee in Dental school). Staff salaries are high, material costs are high, and nearly everything is disposable. If you think of a physician, maybe 3-4 patients out of ten would require, paper towels, latex gloves, needles or bibs. For us every single patient requires everything and much more. It adds up very quickly. Then we have to sterilize the equipment purchase materials for bondings, veneers, fillings, impressions, lab fees etc all cost us a fortune. In addition to all that each dental chair in the operatory costs 15,000 and 10,000 for the hydraulic lifts. Then there is the dental light, electric speed drills (6000-7000 each) etc,etc,etc. Dentists always compare our offices as the place where they make pottery where everything is messy, has to b disposable and the equipment is a fortune. This is in contrast to a physicians office that is like an art galary,clean,low cost to maintain etc. If anybody has questions about dentistry or dental school or applying/DAT, grades or anything else please feel free to ask,because I know how hard it is as a student when everyone is so tight "lipped". (i've got a million of these bad dental jokes!) take care Dental Diane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Heh! Let me be the first to say then: "Welcome to the forums!" Ian UBC, Med 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest strider2004 Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Hi Diane, I did some bookkeeping in the summer in Calgary including financial statements of some dentists in the area. Mind you, they are quite ambitious dentists and they have associates working under them. My friend is in dentistry and his dad has a successful dental practice so I imagine that's where he gets his info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dk Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 The boss of my dental friend has annual NET income of 400,000$ with his two clinics. However he does work A LOT and I assume that he is only an exceptional case, as the overhead is high in Dentistry... Personally I do not think someone should ever enter Dental school solely for the easy money they will eventually make in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asdfghjkl Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 I've shadowed a number of dentists and have seen NET incomes from 100-500K NET. However, all these dentists really enjoyed the practice philosphy they were running. Netting in the 100-200 range with a smaller more personal office vs the 400-500 range while running what could only be called an actual fullblown business. For example one dentist who is also a relative of mine, has a huge practice. He bought into the practice ~10 yrs ago for 400K (which he still is paying off) and the guy who owned the practice was billing 1.2 Million GROSS and taking home ~450K NET. Together they built a new larger office with ~ 8 chairs. They employ 2or3 receptionists, a lady who only deals with insurance, a business manager (who has an MBA) and the ususal hygenists and assistants. The whole practice now makes 2.4Million GROSS and they carry around 65% overhead leaving each of them with 400K+ in NET takehome before taxes. THey are currently looking for a 3rd partner that could buy in for around 400K. However, other dentists like to work less hours, have a less complicated practice and a much slower work day and they can still bring home a nice income and live an enviable life. Basically you can make your practice anything you want it to be but to bring home 400K you need to be very ambitious and be willing to work after hours on the whole business side of your practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toodumbformeds Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 bad hombre: U of T:20% Interview Are you sure there is an interview? Don't you mean the personal essay? Western:60% GPA (OMSAS scale) Why OMSAS? The admissions page seems to use percentile grades. (The last class had a 85.3 I think) re: income Overhead also has to do with the location of the office (i.e. rent, traffic, % of the community employed and insured). The skill and efficiency of the staff is also a big factor. There are often comparisons between the incomes of doctors and dentists; certainly $600 root canals and $1000 crowns are nothing to sneer at. (lab fees, time req'd, yeah, yeah, I know... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toodumbformeds Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 From my course, here are some sobering numbers for those of you who are interested in dentistry for cash. GP Gross billings (Median) : $380k GP Net income (Median) : $126k First 5 years after grad Net income $50000 (=$30/hr) - though my prof insisted this was a correct figure it was a bit hard to swallow... maybe this was in USD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bad hombre Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 Yes, toodumbformeds, U of t does have an interview which was implemented only a couple of years ago (maybe only one?). And the OMSAS scale for UWO is what i've seen in a pamphlet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest artsyfartsy Posted March 22, 2002 Report Share Posted March 22, 2002 Hi, I got an interview for dentistry at u of t and medicine at mac. I am still waiting for an interview or rejection at toronto for meds. I think sometimes, all this is a real crap shoot. A friend of mine from grad school in History at U of T applied to the Ph.D. program at Cambridge straight from undergrad and got in; she came to Toronto this year to do an M.A. because u of t gave her money and Cambridge didn't. last november, she was talking over email to the supervisor she wanted to work with at cambridge and 5 months after she was accepted, this supervisor said to my friend "Oh, we were just looking over your application and realized that you didn't have a Master's at the time that you applied to our Ph.D. program..." I was floored when I heard this. I was shocked they didn't realized that when they admitted her - I doubt they even looked at the Transcripts (which were good nonetheless). So who the hell knows how it works! I wouldn't take rejections personally or try and qualitatively assessing the difficulty of admissions can be quite relative outside of sheer statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asdfghjkl Posted March 22, 2002 Report Share Posted March 22, 2002 You have mentioned that the competitive starting associate wage in ontario is only 70,000. This number seems awfully low from what I've heard and doesn't make much sense. First of all, you say hygenists my 80,000 so a graduating hygenist is now making more than a dentsit?? Secondly, every dentist I talked to in BC and Alberta said that it is easy to start out at 100,000. Thirdly, if this was true why wouldn't every dentist in Ontario go into the DOTP program with the Canadian Forces. IN the DOTP you get all school and books and clinic fees paid for, you get a salary of 40,000/yr while in dental school and you start at 96,000 as soon as you graduate. You only owe them 6-8wks each summer and then service for 3 years and you're working in a clinic with zero overhead and you would be able to improve your skills before going out to serve the general public. Plus you serve at a base in Canada, not out in the field or away in another country. Seems pretty stupid to actually go into debt and then come out on your own if you're only going to make 70,000 the first couple years???? I was also wondering about the 70% overhead being average. I have never heard an overhead figure that high. I usually hear 50-55 for a practice grossing 300-500K and up to 65 for practices grossing 1000K or more. Anyways, I was just really suprised with those figures because they are so different from what I've heard over the last couple years from numerous different sources. I would like to hear any further comments you have about these numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asdfghjkl Posted March 22, 2002 Report Share Posted March 22, 2002 You mentioned average figures for dentistry and you said you got them from "a course". What course are you reffering to? Just curious about 55,000 for the first 3 years, seems a little ridiculous to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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