Guest Dannyboy Posted February 20, 2003 Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 I just wanted to comment about the GPA thread from yesterday. Regarding percentiles, my understanding of statistics (and it has been a couple of years) indicates that a 3.70 would not necessarily be the 70percentile---with percentile rankings, the numbers are relative. I know that the median GPA for this year's pool is 3.51. Yeah, knowing the mode (or even the mean) would have been far more informative but people are secretive about that one. Back to the 3.70 GPA: depending on the position/place of that GPA RELATIVE to the other applicants determines the percentile. So, if the bulk of students had GPAs in the range of 3.50, 3.70 could fall in a higher percentile (e.g. 80 to 85 th). The alternate could also hold true but we are only going to concentrate on the positives here. By reviewing previous years acceptance stats, I would venture to suggest 3.70 is a competative GPA and it would place you in at least the 70th percentile. Many people apply to Mac because their GPA cutoff is considerably lower than the other medical schools so that 3.70 may rank quite high. NOT to discourage those with lower GPAs: please don't think I am doing that. As one recruiter told me: sometimes the lower GPAs are the best indicator of the type of student that Mac wants since many times outspoken, passionate, innovative, creative, constructively critical and intelligent people have lower GPAs. Meaning, with many schools, being different = being labelled controversial = biased and unfair marking and the subsequent lowering of your grade. This is especially relevant for the arts students where much of their success involves playing the 'game' well and being a submissive and responsive member of essentially a popularity contest. In essence, those who rock the boat get tossed to the sharks. Mac knows this and accounts for it in as many ways as they can. I am not explaining this as well as I should. If a GPA of 3.85, for example, (which for many schools is an "A" average: remember what OMSAS does to most GPAs) is relatively uncommon, someone with that GPA could land in the 90th percentile. Or the 70th...which I highly doubt. Any other comments about my logic?? Regarding the scary high number of applicants this year: I wouldn't read too much into it. Absolutely I think MCAT scores being posted had a significant impact on those figures sooooooo read into it a bit: many applicants will not have prepared adequately and/or did not necessarily choose Mac as a first choice (and may not be suitable candidates). I know of at least a dozen people in that category. Also: a minor but somewhat amusing point that is sort of related to this topic is how many applications get 'tossed' because of omissions and because people did not satisfy the requirements. Apparently in any given year 300 to 600 people do not satisfy the requirements AND (this is the part I find amusing) *at least* 400 applications are removed because people respond "N/A" to the question about experiencing a failure in life. So funny; I could write a book on my failures....This info was provided by a recruiter so I think it is quite legitamate. As you can see, the 3 600 application figure is deceiving. Anyways, there's my two-cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mala2003 Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Hi Dannyboy, Just a quick comment on the last part, I remember attending the University Fair in high school. I visited the Mac's booth and I spent quite a long time chatting with the lady representing the Mac's medical school. She kept telling me (at that time, I didn't know much about the different medical schools) that many applications get tossed out (as you mentioned) because they don't "follow the instructions". I wasn't sure what instructions she was talking about (and I still don't know what she was talking about). But the point I wanted to make is that I've also heard about applications not being considered because they haven't "followed the instructions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mumfirst Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Thought I would throw in my 2 cents to this discussion. Last year a 3.68 GPA made for a 74%ile ranking. I think that this year with the number of "last minute" applicants (read as MCATs did not make the Queen's/UT/Western cutoffs), the GPA rankings might be slightly more skewed. There are likely more applicants with GPAs in the upper end (eg. 3.7 or more) than those less than 3.5 because these are the applicants that if they had met MCAT cutoffs then they would have applied elsewhere and left Mac out of their application. I'm thinking that a 3.7 this year will likely be around 73 - 75%ile ranking. Secondly, last year Mac had about 3300 applications but only 2450 met requirements. These figures were given to me by the adcom last year. As Dannyboy said, many applicants (about 850 last year) do not qualify because they 1) do not answer all 15 questions 2) do not have the required number of courses (the max number of 1st year courses are exceeded), or 3) they do not meet the 3.0 minimum (might be applicants that hope to have the mid point of applicant pool used as their grad GPA to pull them over 3.0). Regardless of the number of applicants, you still need to stand out from the crowd with your autobiographical submission - whether your GPA is 3.0 or 4.0. Forget the other 3800 applicants - there are likely only about 2800 that you need worry about!! Agggghhhhhh! We will all know in the next few days! Good luck to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Hey mumfirst and other aspiring applicants: I think you are right that the autobiographical submission will be the real clinger, especially this year with all of the extra applicants. I imagine that those people may have great GPA's but if they wrote their submissions "last minute" then they will likely bomb. I would not even begin to venture a guess as to the percentil scores for now, but we will soon know:rolleyes I now forget his name, but one presenter at the open house at Mac last August that I attended also mentioned that indeed every year a number of applications are discarded for simply not following rules and leaving blanks (but I find it hard to believe the significant number proposed by applicants in previous posts). Only one (maybe two) more episodes of ER until we find out if we've got that interview! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mumfirst Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Hey Macdaddyeh, I also found it difficult to believe that so many of the applications were not included in the percentile ranking but 'tis true. I spoke to Halina (Admissions coordinator) last year to ask the number of applicants that the percentile rankings were based on. When she told me 2450 I questioned it as well. She explained that more than 800 applications had been set aside for the reasons that I gave above. I am sure if we called they would also let us know the number of eligible applicants in this year's deep pool of 3700+(?) received applications. I'm not going to call however, I'm too busy watching for our mail car!! A friend of mine has also pointed out - as a couple of other posters have said - that the last minute applications of those "Mac by default because my MCAT didn't cut it" will likely not be up to par compared to those Mac die hards who have spent months thinking about, working on, and polishing our submissions... or so we can hope!! Good luck to all... just 10 more sleeps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dannyboy Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 I know the GPA thing gets beaten to death but I also know that there are plenty of applicants out there panicing because they don't have stellar marks and there seems to be too many people out there who think the marks are THE indicator of a good dr. So here's my point for this latter group: HELLO when was the last time you asked an attending physician what his/her GPA was? Or better--in appreciation of previous comments regarding determining a surgeon's ability based on him/her not having a science background or on his/her GPA--when was the last (or perhaps more appropriately, the first) time you asked a surgeon this question?????? How many people even ask where (or sadly, if) the dr went to school? The very high GPAs are a relatively new adventure that is related to the increased number of students (few spots + too many students = competition which unfortunately means higher GPA cutoffs for most schools). I have asked drs (I am too curious for my own good) and I have been surprised. MANY drs (and almost always they are the ones I admired) had ok grades and certainly nothing close to 3.5. The one dr who was my inspiration growing up (he inspired me to be a decent human being and taught me the meaning of altrusim) and most definitely inspired me to pursue medicine had a GPA of 3 and he was TERRIBLE at both math and science (and still claims to be). I have a GPA that I am quite honestly embarrassed by. No, it is not low; I actually broke the GPA record for my department. I am embarrassed by it because I compromised too much to earn it. I too often left my personal life suffer; I put my family and friends through far too much for what amounts to MY selfish benefit. Yes, I did do alot of good things for others over the last 4 years but those who meant the most to me paid a price and they never agreed (or were asked) to be part of the deal. I wish I could take things back---I would gladly give up my marks if this was possible. Absolutely, hand me the 3 and make my lapses in judgment go away.....I am trying very hard to make it up to them now and I know that I won't make that mistake again but...it just hurts that I hurt them. My situation amounts to me being a runaway success in the academic realm but a total failure in my personal sphere when I should have sought and maintained a balance between the two. Too often, that is what a very high GPA amounts to. I've met too many people with stellar grades that have done the same *but* are not aware that there was a significant price attached to achieving great marks. I do NOT mean to belittle their achievments but everyone does things a little bit differently; everyone has their path to navigate. Grades are but one indicator of what it takes to be a good dr and although it is an important one, gosh, there so many other things that are much more important...... The one thing that I am most certain of is what I think will make me a good dr are the same things that make anyone a good person and these qualities can most definitely not be learned in a classroom or by reading a textbook. For those of you worrying about your marks...nothing I say will likely soothe these concerns but please don't use your marks as any indicator, or worse, as a barrier to obtaining your goal/dream of being a dr. You're good people because of who you are and what you've done and continue to do. A letter of acceptance or rejection from a med school doesn't change that. Just being able to fill out an application and to be considered for a spot at Mac is a significant accomplishment and it is one that relatively few will ever be eligible to undertake. Before those letters hit the post, I think we should all take a step back and acknowledge what we have so far accomplished. AND please do not give up if you don't get the news that you want. You know the old axiom about the true value of success being determined by the many obstacles that had to be overcome to achieve a goal--it's about the process not the outcome and how this process shapes/influences you as a person. Just think about all the failures and setbacks that you had to overcome to get to this stage---you did and you obviously did not give up. If you don't get the news you want this time around, please do not see it as a 'rejection'; just see it as an unfortunate hurdle that was put in your path for a reason. Work to change your path a bit; take the time to live life and to learn from your experiences and get ready for next year. Navigating the hurdle will only make your eventual victory that much sweeter. Just please, as I've already written, don't give up unless that is what you think is the best thing for you (i.e. if you re-evaluate your desires and you decide you didn't want to be a dr that much). Please do not let your GPA determine your self-worth or your potential; please do not use it as an indicator of your success in either academia or more importantly, in life. Well, that was far more than a GPA rant. Opps..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dannyboy Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 I meant to add to my rant that I currently have a nasty migraine so if parts of my message do not make any sense...sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDin2006 Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 In one of the postings above, someone mentioned that applications are thrown out if one has taken too many 1st year courses. How many is too many? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tirisa Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Dannyboy, It made great sense to me. I think the fact that you now recognize the price you paid for having your high GPA shows incredible maturity and an ability to self-evaluate ... two great qualities for a future doctor. Best of luck to you. In many of the above messages here, I think that what we're seeing is major anxiety (not surprising) for the wait, and knowing how many applications are discarded somehow sends out extra rays of hope. But regardless of how many are thrown out or what our exact GPA %ile is... getting the interview invite is still out of our control at this point. We've all done our best, filled in all the blanks (hopefully), and so now, we really just need to focus on ourselves right now. And focus on what we have control of. We have lots of control over self-evaluating ourselves, as D-boy has done, learning about health care and learning about the world. If we don't get interviews, we're still going to be better people for the self-learning that has been taking place over the past months. Anyway, as always, best of luck. Tirisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mumfirst Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Quote from Dannyboy: "Just being able to fill out an application and to be considered for a spot at Mac is a significant accomplishment and it is one that relatively few will ever be eligible to undertake." Exactly, this is just how I felt last year when I was working on my application. Long story short, I have wanted to go to med school for almost 20 years but took a different career path for a number of reasons. A few years ago when my daughter was born I took the time to reevaluate my priorities and realized that I HAD to at least attempt to get into meds. I figured that I had already spent enough time "wishing" but not enough time working towards it. I buckled down and went back to school fulltime - not that easy while raising a young child. In the past four years there have also been a few other VERY significant challenges placed in my way but I chose to stick with it, even if it would have been much easier to pack it in and go back to my career (my employer had given me a leave of absence to go to school). So..... as I began to work on my med school application I was overjoyed that I was in a postion to be eligible to apply - something that I see as an amazing accomplishment!! Obviously, I am really hoping that I get an interview and a subsequent acceptance but whether or not I get an interview I have to be proud of getting myself to a place where I was at least eligible to apply - and so should every other applicant!!!! MDin2006: As for the maximum number of 1st year courses, you are best to check out Mac's website. We had this discussion last year and the more people tried to explain it, the more confused everyone got. Basically, if you have 15 fulltime courses then you can only have a max of 5 first year courses. You have to have at LEAST 2 years (10 full courses) greater than first year. Technically, there isn't a max number of first year courses (you might have 6 or 7 first year courses, but as long as you have 10 or more second year or higher you will be okay!). Again, good luck to all and may we all receive the thick envelopes in a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDin2006 Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Thanks Mumfirst. I have another question for you or anyone else that can answer it. Does one simply have to finish 15 courses by June 30 or do the grades for all of these courses have to be available by that date? I asked this on a different thread but no one has yet to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dannyboy Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Hey there, Thanks for sharing your story with us mumfirst. Did you apply last year or is this your first time around? Are you at U of T by any chance? I am finishing up an M.A. at U of T (two more months & I am freeeeeeeeee!!!!). Just being nosey. I am also a parent and a single one to boot. My son was the one thing that was always a priority with me so he fortunately was not an aspect of any of the "lapses of judgements" I noted previously. I almost always found school was beneficial in regard to raising a child (i.e. the hours and such were conducive to spending quality time with him) *but* I had waited until he was seven before returning to school so my experiences would likely be considerably different than others who are raising younger children. MD2006: don't worry so much about getting the grades in. Admin told me that at this stage they will request any and all transcripts that they require. In the past, I've ordered transcripts a couple of weeks before grades have to be in and requested that they be processed as soon as grades are posted. This way, I am at the head of the line for requests (the office will be swamped at the end of the semester) and there will be a paper trail indicating that the transcripts were ordered in time. I would think, however, that grades would have to be in by June 30th---your acceptance would be conditional upon proof that your courses were successfully completed. If this is a problem, contact your school and request that your transcript be 'rush' processed and sent immediately (this will usually, unfortuately, cost you more). Occasionally you will run up against problems (yes, the standard "we don't do that; we can't do that"). Don't let that concern you--just go to the another person. Just be patient, persistent, and polite. The three "p"s have worked wonders for me. The Dean of Students is often an excellent "cut through red-tape' source. If there is one thing I learned in university it is that if you get a "NO" all that means is that you've asked the wrong person. Good night folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mumfirst Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Hey Dannyboy - I did apply last year and missed out on an interview invite by a very small margin (according to my rankings).:\ I firmly believe that things happen for a reason and obviously last year just wasn't my time. When I looked back on my autobio submission I couldn't believe how dry it was. Oh it was professional and polished, but it was so impersonal that there was no way that the readers would have gleamed any sense of who I am by reading my answers. This year I reworked the whole thing and made it much more personal and conversational. (I'll tell you how that worked in the next week or so!) I don't go to U of T, I am a Waterloo grad. Most of my degree was done through distance ed which gave me the flexibility to juggle my study schedule around my daughter's schedule. It has been an amazing experience and I feel so lucky to have been able to stay home with her in these very important early years and worked on my degree at the same time. It has also been a tremendous learning experience as far as time management, self-discipline and priority setting! MDin2006 - I'm sorry but I can't answer your question. You should talk to admissions about that. My guess would be that you have to finish the course by then and there might be some leeway as far as getting the transcript in BUT you should check with Mac to know for sure. Once again, good luck to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kellyl20 Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 While GPA is certainly not everything I would like to think that successful applicants do have adequate GPA to show thinking/reasoning/remembering processes. And b/c now that I have started to look at med schools I have in fact started asking doctor which med schools they graduated from. That doctor with the GPA of 3 may well be very people oriented and compassionate, but if given a choice, I will take my chances with the GPA 4 doctor anyday to do the job, even if he is not personable. This just my opinion and not really realistic as patients do not know their physician's GPA. The general public trusts the med schools to do an adequate job of med student selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kellyl20 Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 There are many students who do not have to compromise anything to get their high GPA. They are genetically gifted, are involved in lots and have a good time also. It is just the majority have to put in the time to learn/study or else they simply would not know their stuffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dannyboy Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Good morning mumfirst: good for you!!!!! I've taken distance ed courses and they are not fun. I hope you included that experience in with you autio (if you had room). I think my answers were tooooooo "me" and toooooo "personal"---I little more polish and prof. would have been nice. C'est la vie. Hey Kelly120, Please do not take the GPA comment the wrong way. I am well aware that some people with high GPAs were able to balance things *but* "genetically gifted" or not, a 4 requires an enormous amount of work which will necessarily take you away from interpersonal responsibilities. My situation is different: I have a family and I do not live at home (that makes a critical difference) and I have considerable life responsibilities (e.g. paying bills, working). I have an IQ that is very comfortably past 130; I have never encountered anything in school that was that challenging. Real life can be an enormous challenge but no, nothing in a textbook is that daunting to me. You are making a CRITICAL mistake by equating IQ with intelligence, potential, as an accurate assessment of your knowledge base, or even as a fair assessment of school performance. Einstein struggled in school and did not get good grades. Bill Gates failed many courses and he might actually be a high school drop out. My mentor in university had a GPA just above 3 and he is a genius and he is considered the leader in his field. Any "genetic gift" an individual has is not that relevant: regardless of any "gift" if you took courses that were selected to *expand* your knowledge (vs. courses that you essentially already took or were "no brainers") and even if you did not, assignments need to be done and this requires a substantial amount of work especially if you take a full load. Even if you are brilliant, reading 500 to 700 pages of text (and that, in my situation at least, is only a tiny component of the work load) takes time. Do you really think "people skills" aren't critical? I may be misunderstanding you. Empathy and well developed people skills guide people's perceptions, their evaluations and most importantly, their decisions on how to treat people. I once had a "brilliant specialist" tell me that my son was going to die and that I should just get "used to it" and accept his fate in life. I had him removed from my son's case. The next specialist was not as "well known" nor as "brilliant" (he was fresh out of residency) but he looked right at me and said that there was no way he was going to give up nor was he going to let anyone else give up on my son and that we were going to fight the condition as a team. He CARED enough to call in other people and together they worked to figure out treatment options. The other "brilliant" specialist refused to allow any other people to come in to offer different ideas/opinions (I had asked him to). At every juncture the 2nd specialist treated me with respect and kindness. He infused every aspect of the situation with hope. My son recovered within two weeks. From my reading of the literature on what *people* think makes a great dr, people skills take the top spot. All the knowledge in the world doesn't matter if you treat people like "subjects" or "specimens". Perhaps you don't understand what is involved in med school or with getting a specialty (or, alternatively, maybe I don't). EVERYONE in the end writes the exact same exam to become a dr. and not everyone gets tapped to be a specialist----it is not a given if you are in med school that you will be provided this opportunity (see the matching process for more info). Med school and residencey teaches you the basics but medicine involves life-long learning. Your GPA is only an indication of a past performance and one, I might add, that was earned in a very structured environment. Real life is just not like that. My comments were to comfort those who were concerned about their lower GPAs and most definitely not to 'knock' those with high GPAs. Have a good weekend Kelly and all the best to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dannyboy Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 MD2006: Of course, confirm everything with Mac but here's some advice for you: I wasn't aware that you were taking a course that ends in May and that your grades will not be available until August. So, I asked a couple of my profs and they both said to contact your prof in person and explain your situation to them. The contact should be made both in writing (email---that paper trail is critical) and in person. If it is decided that you need that grade in order to be accepted, they might be able to make an alternate arrangement for you. Both said that in the past, they have marked a student's work early in order to give the student their mark. However, both said that the mark did not go on the official transcipt until all the marks were posted. Instead, they wrote a letter to the institution explaining the situation and provided the students "unofficial" mark and contact info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kellyl20 Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Sorry if I had offended you Dannyboy. I still think that a GPA of 4.0 would take a person who is perhaps born smart much less effort and time to achieve than someone who has to struggle to get a good GPA. While assignments needed to be worked on, studying is a breeze for those individuals and perhaps even a shorter time needed to put those assignments together. I am glad things worked out with your son and I would believe that the person who ultimately provided the "cure" was someone who used their thinking cap talent rather than their gift of gab; or was that not the case here? Acknowleging limitations and going for help to bring in expertise is ultimately relying on different persons (other experts) with their smarts, not their sympathy. Hand holding is a needed skill also, but IMHI the thinking process is a necessity. In real life I would think that patients need docs with knowledge and confidence; and confidence needs knowledge. For sure docs need to be empathetic, but the thinking process and remembering the knowledge they learnt has to be there for the patient, in order for the patient to get well. While I am sure we will not be agreeing anytime soon on this GPA thing, I respect that people have different areas of talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Sorry, just a little play on words. Just a note from a fellow poster that says thank you for your motivation and enthusiasm on this site. It is this ninth inning stretch that really has everyone on edge. I agree with you that grades are not everything and in fact life experience, as I have also learned, greatly outweighs any book knowledge. Thank God Mac has the flexibility and foresight to recognize that (unlike some other appearingly stuffy med schools which I won't mention). Take care. The verdict is in; we're just waiting for the verdict to be read:eek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDin2006 Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 Hi Dannyboy, I called the admission's office and was told that as long as I have completed 15 courses by June 30th I shouldn't have any problems, even if the grades for my summer school courses are not released until August. Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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