Guest Mens Rea Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Hello to the message board ! Perhaps my situation may seem a little insane, so if nothing else, I hope everyone gets a good laugh at least. Well anyways, I am 30 years old now and I have an undergrad degree in Psychology and an MBA / LLB from Western. I have practiced law in addition to working in house for a non profit organization. I have always thought of medicine but in the past I was often worried that I wouldn't be able to hack it etc. Then of course life stuff happened (married, child, career etc.) However now I have realized that I really can make this happen if I truly want to. My problem is this. My marks from undergrad were very good 3.7ish however my marks from law school (considered an undergrad degree) are average many B's, one A and 2 C's ( law school has a B bell curve grading system). The other issue is that I do not have any science courses required by many of the schools. I was wondering if anyone has advice on what the next step should be to optimize my chances of gaining acceptance somewhere. I was thinking of perhaps going back and doing an quick undergrad science degree and writing the MCAT (ie 3 courses each summer, 5during the year, 4 in the second year - complete in 2 years basically). Or perhaps doing the accelerated nursing program and completing the prereqs in the summer. Would this work against me? Nursing student to Med school? I know Mac does not require science courses, but I'm sure it would look favourably if one can demonstrate their ability in those courses. I think Mac would be a great school to attend, as I have had exposure to PBL learning in my MBA which was entirely PBL based, however the odds of getting an interview are quite low. Therefore its probably best to tackle the science courses Is there anyone else in my situation? Is there anyone who is in the program or gone through the program that has any advice? How will the schools look at my background (over educated? too old? a floater? No recent volunteering?) Thank you very much for providing me with the opportunity to voice my questions and concerns. I thank everyone in advance for their insights Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gucio93 Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 I was wondering if anyone has advice on what the next step should be to optimize my chances of gaining acceptance somewhere. I was thinking of perhaps going back and doing an quick undergrad science degree and writing the MCAT (ie 3 courses each summer, 5during the year, 4 in the second year - complete in 2 years basically). Or perhaps doing the accelerated nursing program and completing the prereqs in the summer. Would this work against me? Nursing student to Med school? Couple of things: 1) You could certainly apply to Mac during this applications cycle (make sure your sketch is excellent! - much depends on how it is scored), in the meantime, you can take some science courses so that if you are unsuccessful you could apply to other schools next year. Check with the school of your choice, sometimes courses from a previous degree can count towards another general degree and therefore that second degree may take only a year to complete. Remember though, that ALL of your courses will count towards your final OMSAS GPA. 2) I would not advise doing a nursing program just as a way of getting to medical school. While switching from a nursing career may be acceptable (you have worked as a nurse and realized that you wanted to do more for your patients, etc), taking away a spot that could go to someone who truly wishes to work as an RN (esp. since there is now a shortage of RNs withing the province) will most likely not be looked on very favourably by anyone. This is ofcourse just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, but consider that there is a medical student, a staff person, and a community representative on the committee - you don't know their backgroungs and it may be tough to defend your position. know Mac does not require science courses, but I'm sure it would look favourably if one can demonstrate their ability in those courses. If you want to take science courses, then do so. But, you do not need to do it just to please the admissions committee. It really does not matter either way. The overall impression of your life, the way it is represented in your sketch, is what is most important. I cannot stress that enough - use all your life experiences to answer the questions and relate them to medicine. How will the schools look at my background (over educated? too old? a floater? No recent volunteering? Just to let you know - there are many people with graduate degrees (including Ph.D.s) and many people with previous professional degrees in my class and other classes at Mac. You are definitely not over educated - use your experiences to your advantage in your sketch. I also definitely do not think that you are too old. There are many people in their 30s studying at Mac and they are doing just fine and appear to be very happy with their choice. Many people also have families. Personally, I have a Master's degree and a previous professional degree. I was 27 when I started med school, I am married and I have a child. And I am definitely not the exception. As far as the volunteering - I wouldn't fret too much if your life is full of other wonderful experiences you can work towards your advantage. Hope this helps. Take care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDWannabe Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hi MR: Just to add to what Gucio93 said. There are people in the program who fit similar profiles to you, me being among them. As far as the sciences go, if you are bent on Mac and will not go elsewhere, it won't be hard to show you can handle the sciences without doing them. The real trick is to convince them that you are the kind of person (in terms of drive and temperment) to be a doctor. To that end, I would in your shoes focus more on enhancing the experiences you have already had. They should be relevant (or at least loosely analogous) to show your interest in the types of things doctors do, and at the same time advance you personally. Judging from what I've seen around me, most people feel that if it looks like you are pursuing an activity just so you can get in to the program, it's a real turn off. In a way, pursuing sciences at this point would appear that way to me. Better to do something that ties into your background but show how much you really get a kick out of helping people. Now all this falls away if you will be applying elsewhere. You might need the sciences in that case. And in a funny way you might be advantaged because not every school would necessarily count your 3 years of law school as undergrad, and that would certainly be in your favour! Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mens Rea Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Thank you Gucio and MdWannabe very much for your advice To further on what has been said, it seems that the sciences helped people gain acceptance according to past posts. I remember reading about Carolyn who applied from a business background and was rejected, however did a second degree in science and felt that it showed her committment to pursuing medicine. Another poster (I think jmh2005) took time off her/his career in PT or OT (I can't remember) to do basic sciences. The admission folks were impressed that she would give up her salary to do the science courses, again showing committment to the field. I guess the bottom line is that it could go either way, depending upon whose hands your application falls into. I certainly will try to draw upon things I have done in the past. It seems like an excellent idea. MDwannabe, are you a former lawyer (you mentioned a similar background?) How did you handle the question of why you did not pursue medicine earlier rather than the LLB? In other words how did you tackle the issue of why medicine now, why wait so long? Thank you again, I feel very encouraged that there are others with similar backgrounds that have been successful in the program. If you feel more comfortable you can send me a private message. In any case, I'm truly grateful for the advice that has been provided to me. Bye Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDWannabe Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hi Mike, Actually, I did both degrees, in answer to your question. I certainly did not go back and do any sciences - as you say, that action could be looked at either way. Far better, I think, to advance yourself by showing your commitment to helping people in an analogous way. You can definitely get through the program - it's not rocket science - but you won't do well on the other end unless you really and truly care about the health of others...ie that is the factor that really drives you. To answer your other question, despite my law/MBA background, I think I could demonstrate by means of the nature of my long term volunteer activities that my interest in furthering the welfare of others was pretty genuine. I was able, I think, to provide concrete examples to back up my assertions that I would be a good fit. And I think the sacrifice that I would have to make to enter the program, given what I had going on (very secure job, great family life, very integrated in my volunteer activities) demonstrated how seriously I took this. To look at this another way, had I been floating from career to career, never really settling in and making a mark, I might have been seen to be more desperate to get in. In summary, I would assert that what Mac is looking for is a person who will make a positive contribution, no matter what activity in which they get involved. Anyone can take sciences, but you can get all that as you plod through medical school. This may sound a little hokey, but you have to ask yourself: what am I doing to make the world a better place? - and have a good answer to that question! Sorry for my overwordiness - it's late and I just finished what amounts to our final examination of the year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mens Rea Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Once again a terrific answer Your replies have been most helpful!! May I ask what types of activities you have been involved with over the years? As you know, law is a very demanding field that leaves very little time for other pursuits. In my case, I have always believed strongly in giving back to society in whatever capacity that I could. Since graduating law school I have always provided myself free of charge to several poverty legal clinics for at least 10-15 hrs per week, for several years. I have also been apart of changing human rights policies on international volunteer assignments. I have sat on many boards of non profit and charitable organizations in a management capacity, in order to devise strategies for allowing such organizations to grow and prosper. Finally I have coached in children's leagues and run food drives since I was in high school. I have no hospital volunteering or anything health care related however. Do you think that what I have done in the past will maybe catch the eye of someone trying to assess my interest in helping others? In any case, thank you for your invaluable advice, it has truly been my pleasure to hav a chance to interact with someone with such a similar background. Take Care Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDWannabe Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Once again, I see similarities in the types of activities you and I have taken on. On the surface it seems (in my unbiased view!) that you have the right idea. In addition to those kinds of activities, I did volunteer at a hospital in a number of capacities for about 1.5 years to ensure that I had a better sense of what I was getting into. It mostly gave me a better sense of what patients were going through; some things that I will keep in mind when I'm practicing. It was actually quite an eye opener. Again, your chief hurdle, and it is no small one, is to convince the admissions committee that there was some sense to you waiting to apply - assuming that you had a long term passion to be a doctor. This is something to think long and hard about. I was a practicing lawyer for 3 years, then a portfolio manager for 10. The first thing they asked me in the interview was: "how do we know that you won't be going into architecture next??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mens Rea Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 architecture eh???? What do you say Mdwannabe, after I'm done med school lets head to architecture school!!!.......kidding of course I will start to volunteer at local hospitals. I appreciate that suggestion, I think the experience will be very valuable. I was wondering if you know of any hospitals that allow one to gain more hands on experience. I have heard that volunteers for the most part have very peripheral duties, (ie setting up the lunch trays etc.). I was wondering what kinds of duties you participated in over your time volunteering. Finally one more question (I'm really sorry to bother you with these questions, I'm sure you are a very busy individual) How did you convey to the adcoms that you always wanted to be a doctor? How did you explain the long delay before pursuing the goal of medicine? MDWannabe, your the best, I really appreciate the help, good luck with your examinations (or the close resemblance to examinations) that you are currently undergoing Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest me maniac Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Mike, you don't necessarily have to convince the adcom that you've wanted to be a doctor since you were 10 years old. I know I didn't. What I was asked in several interviews was: "why medicine? why now?" You then have to take your own relevant history to give them the sense that medicine is the career for you and tell them how you got to this point. That is just my perspective of things.... others may feel diferently. me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest medicator007 Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Mike, Permit me to echo me's sentiment in that you DO NOT need to show them that you have always wanted to become a doctor. There are plenty of people in medicine, myself included, for whom the decision wasn't made at 10 years old (Not to say that having wanted to be a doctor since 10 is a bad thing!). As me pointed out, I think the most important thing to show to the ADcom is that you want to be a doctor now, show to them that you understand what making this decision will involve and then prove to them that you have what it takes to make it happen. I was fortunate to have a physican mentor while I was applying and he gave a great analogy that I found useful. He said to picture each ADcom as a business that had been given money by the gov't to invest in training say 100 doctors. You job as an applicant is to show to them that you are the best possible investment for their money... this may not be 100% true, nor will it work for everyone, but I found it helped me focus my application process. Hope that helps, Medicator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDWannabe Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Mike, I actually agree with me maniac on that idea that you don't need to prove you wanted to do this since you were 10. In my case, it was early 20's; in yours, it might be an epiphany from 3 years ago. It has to be YOUR story, not anyone else's, or you won't be halfway convincing. It absolutely must not look like this was a decision made on a whim, in my view - they need to see some sensible pattern of thought. For some people, it might be a recent life-changing event (ie death of a close relative and your experience with that). As to the volunteering experience, I found far and away the best experience to be had (given my lack of experience) was in CT and radiological special procedures. This was where you got to spend the most time with patients, getting a sense of their hopes and fears and helping to keep them in the loop. On the whole, patients were well cared for when a medical person was with them, but the patients (as you will see) spend the majority of their time waiting and worrying. This is where you can really provide a service. In the meantime, you get to see some pretty interesting procedures. I saw a few radio frequency ablations, for example, and other CT and ultrasound-guided procedures. There was a lot of time to watch the doctors and nurses do their thing, and the paperwork was minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mens Rea Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Comments are appreciated by all I think I'm really starting to understand where I must apply my focus and what aspects about my application I really have to convey to the committee. Thank you all for your well guided advice MdWannabe, I was not so much hoping to scoop your story for myself, as my reason for becoming a physician are very personal. It really started after Law school, when I felt that depsite all of my efforts to contribute to society and fulfill my duties in law as a noble profession, I always felt that it wasn't hands on enough. I didn't have a chance to connect with people on a level where I could really make an impact on their situation in my view. This coupled with the fact that I loved reading medical journals (for fun!!), and characteritics, personality traits that I possess (inherently evident, through activities I've participated in consciously and sub consciously) has led medicine to be a logical and gratifying career choice. I was just really curious as to your particular story and how that was conveyed to the admcomms, as you seem to be a unique individual, and I would like to know more about your very interesting journey. In any case Take care and thank you Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDWannabe Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hey Mike, I appreciate what you're saying, and I certainly didn't mean to say that I thought you would scoop my story - I sincerely apologize if I didn't choose my words carefully. My experience on this site is that people are sort of looking for a "secret" to getting in (as was I sitting your position). You will speak to many people along the way who think they have that secret, but in truth, they don't. With 3600 applications each year, there is always a big element of luck involved. I can guess at what sold the adcom for me, but in truth, the adcom is many different people. This is generally why I will not give specifics of my personal situation beyond the bare facts - they just won't be that helpful because more often than not, in the context of these short blurbs, they are misleading. They also are of limited relevance to most that apply. The vast majority of people who apply (and get in), as you know, have the standard science background. And then there is that small smattering of different types like you and me; from all walks of life; all with different stories. Two people can appear exactly alike on paper and only one of them might get in because of something intangible. That intangible aspect may be the "secret". You will also hear about people with no extra-curriculars getting in (hard to imagine for me). Since we do have such similar backgrounds, though, I reiterate that I would be more than pleased to meet with you in Toronto or Hamilton when the time comes to put in an application. I think it would be much more useful to you than an answer on a thread. When you are at that stage, send a post with your contact info on this site and I will get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jmh2005 Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 What a great discussion.... As has been said you don't necessarily have to have had this dream of becoming an MD at age 2...I made the switch from OT after working for almost 3 years... As was mentioned I did do chem and mol bio last year (in class, not correspondence) and only worked part time in order to fill gaps in my knowledge base and to show my dedication and committment to pursue my dream of getting into meds. I also did this to prep for the MCAT. Although Mac was my #1 choice by far...my desire to become a physician made me realize that I needed to cast a wider net (after 2 non-interview applications to Mac...). I don't think that you necessarily need to go back and take courses in preparation to show that you are dedicated to meds. Its really all about knowing inside that meds is what you are meant to do and then communicating that on paper to others. There are countless other ways in which you can show this new committment, already it seems your path is taking you there...if you can articulate this on paper, I think that your experiences are very relevant and have this theme of giving to others, which is very important, especially at McMaster. If this is what you want...definately apply this year, start answering the questions now! I wish you the best of luck in your journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hey Mike: First, I must comment on your grades, because no one has really addressed that. I believe your undergrad grades seem great and that your law degree marks are "OK." What piques my interest is your MBA, because as per Mac's policy (unless I'm way off base) is that if you have completed a Master's they will grant you the median mark of the applicant pool (which may help your chances). Add to that a stellar application (lawyers are typically articulate) and you sound like you have a plan. In terms of going back to do sciences, unless you are literally *desperate* to become a doctor and want to cast the proverbial "wide net" don't worry about them (I can only speak about MAC's philosophy here which is no MCAT, no prereqs...but my feeling is that this too will change within a matter of time:rolleyes ). You've already proven yourself to be dedicated and estudious, but if your *really* want to demonstrate that you want to become a doctor on one hand, you may pursue the sciences more--I just think it is not entirely necessary (helpful, but not necessary). Best wishes on the application process and your life experiences sound great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mens Rea Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hey all: I appreciate the advice and words of encouragement I think (thanks to everyone's help) I have formed a skelton of a game plan that I will follow before the next application cycle. Upon reading stories of successful and prospective Mac applicants, I think in the end the saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is very fitting for their process. What a group of three essay writers may find very appealing (ie. A prof who loves to research experience in a lab, coupled with a student reader that has done a Phd and supports research, community member who thinks medicine's future lies in health science research) such a student who has spent his summers in a lab and in heavy duty science courses may be the most attractive to that group of readers. However another group of three may frown upon the individual's lack of human interaction and exposure to group work etc. So in that regard the process is conditioned upon where your application lands. I suppose after a few rounds of applying, your application may make it to people who like your background, as in the case of JMH2005, who I am sure was a great candidate during the previous two application cycles. So off I go...thank you again everyone, MDWannabe I may take you up on that offer for feedback on my appication when the time approaches. I will post a message on the board or provate message you as the application cycle near. Thanks very much for the gracious offer. Good Luck to everyone Mike Oh and "Mens Rea" is a latin phrase used in the law that means "A guilty mind". This refers to the intent or intention to commit a crime can be as powerful as actually going through with the act itself. I chose it because I feel that I can be charged with a guilty mind that is guilty of considering med school, and I think it can be as powerful to succeeding as going throught the act itself. So I will proceed with this application cycle Mens Rea and hope for the best. Thank you Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.