Guest JAMIRA Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hi all, I've been following this board for quite a while now and I just want to send out a HUGE CONGRATS to everyone who made it in as well as to those who are going to ... After reading some of the posts over the past week or so (particularly the recent one started by Mens Rea), I started thinking. I've applied to Mac twice now, rejected pre-interview both times. I am in the process of writing next years' application and I'm kind of confused. Something which seems to be coming up consistently here is that a strong applicant must demonstrate their commitment and dedication to a career in medicine. Now, many of you have done so by doing a second degree, or a masters or international volunteering, etc... But at the same time, there have been many warnings about doing something just for the sake of getting into med school, because that is something that is easily detected by the ad com and not looked upon favourably. So, there seems to be a very fine line here. How can ad coms determine a person's motivation for doing something? For example, I want to volunteer in Africa this summer/fall, but seeing as I've never really done something like this before, will it look like I'm just doing it to get in to meds? By the way, it is something I've always wanted to do but didn't have the time or money until now... Also, I have been working full-time for the past year as a research assistant in a developmental psychology lab - doing visual testing on infants and children born with cataracts as well as on control subjects. It's a great job, but in others' opinions, can I be doing something which better shows my commitment to medicine, such as a masters, etc? ( By the way, I am already involved in volunteer activities in both a hospital and with a charitable organization). I mean, what I'm doing is not exactly a "career", it's really just an in between job until I get into med school. Should I be pursuing something more serious, perhaps to show that I have a "plan B"? On the other hand, I 've thought about nursing, OT/PT, etc, but I realize my heart is really set on med school (Mac in particular). I've also considered doing a second degree, but I already have a science degree, so I don't think a second degree would really demonstrate a greater commitment to medicine. After seeing Scalar, who applied 12 times before being accepted (wow...that's persistence!!!!) I know there's still tons of hope for me. But, if it does take a few more times, I am really confused about what I should be doing in the mean time. Any help, advice, comments would be much appreciated. Thanks! :\ Jam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest everyoneloveschem Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I totally know what you mean Jamira!! I have applied only once, and am on this stupid secondary waitlist (yes, better than no interview, I know, but...). I know that my interview wasn't stellar, so I attribute my negative response to that. I work with GPs and when I told them that I hadn't gotten in they were full of all sorts of ideas, some good, some like you, are good for getting in, but not quite me. For example they asked if I volunteer and I said yes, at the Cancer Center, they told me that I should do something more for the people (like work at a street clinic, etc). Only, I want to volunteer at the Cancer Center because both my parents had cancer and I know that a smiling (young) face is nice to see, and that even though I do not do a lot (sounds inconsequential in an interview though it is 3 hours a week), I'd like to think I'm helping someone. The one good thing is that I'm starting to shadow a dr I work with one night a week, and I do homework (reading, thinking, which we discuss later). I feel your pain. Especially the indecision of pursuing another degree. I turned down OGS for a MSc to take a year off, which is now turning into two, and how long can I do this? At some point I'm going to need to choose another path. Maybe if you have any contacts in the medical area get them to read over your application and give you ideas of where to improve, what to build on (strengths, weaknesses). Good Luck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest McMastergirl Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 In my opinion, you should never do anything "just" to get in to med school. Here's why: say you volunteer with street people b/c you think it will look better to an ad com than volunteering in a cancer clinic (why on earth anyone would think that, I have no idea). But say you do, and you hate it. But you stick with it, because hey, this is supposed to get you into med school, right? Wrong. How will you look in an interview, trying to @#%$ about the wonderful experience you had? You will look like a phony, that's what. Do what feels natural to you. All the better if you have personal reasons (such as cancer in the family) for doing what you do. Then what you say in an interview will come from the heart, and even if you don't get in, you won't have wasted your time. By the way... 3 hours a week is not an insubstantial amount of time to dedicate to volunteering. Maybe your interview didn't go well because you truly believed that. Take pride in what you do... it will show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest McMastergirl Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Sorry Jamira, I just realized you haven't had an interview yet... anyway, the same goes for your sketch. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jmh2005 Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 I've said this many times before...it's all about the sketch, you need to WRITE WELL...it's not necessarily about all that you've done... Maybe you've only had 1 or 2 great experiences...I would rather hear you write about what these one or two amazing experience that you were passionate about, what you learned and how that will make you a good Mac MD student and physician vs. telling me that you've done this, that and the next thing without saying anything about the quality of the experience. It's not about tallying up a bunch of things...its really about coming across to the reader your drive, your desire, your skills and attributes...why should Mac interview YOU out all the applicants. Half of the questions really don't even require you to have an 'neat' experience, ever taken a PBL course, ever worked in a small group...all of these a great experiences that will can help you demonstrate you can do well at Mac! Getting back to volunteering, just like McMastergirl said, you need to do something you enjoy, only then will the experience come across on paper as something that was truly valuable. Hang in there...persistence pays off, it truly does!!! I hope that was of some value for everyone who is already working on their sketches for the fall...(I worked on mine for 4 months!!) Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDWannabe Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 JMH2005 is definitely right about spending the time on your essays - it is a critical part of the application. You might wait until the application comes out in a few weeks, though, as there may be some changes to the questions. This is really only second hand information, but I've heard rumblings that there might be some changes to the application process - including autobiographical questions. I don't have any details I can pass along yet, but it might be worth waiting at this point, and just thinking about the basic concepts (ie, why you want to be a doctor; what you think Mac has to offer you; what you bring to Mac). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JAMIRA Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Thanks for all your comments/advice everyone. I really appreciate it! Perhaps because my initial post was a little lengthy and had so many questions, my major concern hasn't quite been addressed yet. So, I'll do my best to reformulate the question... It seems like many of you who have been accepted have actually pursued other (really great) careers in the mean time - careers which have given you good life experiences. Initially, I thought pursuing another career would not help me since I would have to justify leaving that career if I got an interview at Mac. However, it seems many have used this to their advantage in that such willingness to give up a stable career to pursue medicine shows dedication and commitment to the profession. In addition, many have pursued graduate degress in related fields - thus also showing dedication to medicine. This makes me question if working as a research assistant in a psych/vision lab makes me appear less committed, less ambitious, not prepared enough to have a "plan B", or as someone mentioned in a previous thread, "desperate" to get into medical school. The job was initially something I did to keep me busy once I finished my undergrad and to make some money to help fund my medical education, but looking at things realistically, it may be a while before the whole med school thing happens for me. So, I'm really torn between pursuing something else and having to (at some point) justify this to the ad com, or sticking with what I'm doing and looking unambitious and "desperate"? Has anyone else been stuck in this "limbo"? I don't want to do something for the sake of pleasing the ad com, but at the same time I don't want to put myself at a disadvantage. Any suggestions? Jam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Jamira: This is what I'm getting from you: you want to know how to come across as having a "dedication to medicine" in your life, (and by extension, in your application to Mac). First, I must reiterate what others have said. Yes, you *MUST* have some med-related volunteer experience (ie. lab, nursing home, etc.) *BUT* you must do this as a result of your own desire and interest, not to pad an application. You don't need to have had a former med or science related career as you have seen many post (this is the minority of applicants). Second, as JMH stated, I agree fully that it is all in the wording. Curious, how long have you spent writing your application? Did you address what you learned and how that will help you in med school and what your experiences will contribute to a med career--Don't just blanketly explain or provide lists; I recommend you show ingenuity in each question and go into depth. Third, do what interests you in terms of volunteer and paid experiences--these will come through as genuine and interesting when you explain them. Sure there are application-padders out there, but as JMH2002 stated, a readers will probably want to read about one or two dedicated experiences than four or five more superficial ones. In terms of being in "limbo" I too am short on "clinical" experience, but at least I got to the interview stage. I am looking for a genuine, science-based, med-school enticing experience to pursue (SARS is currently frustrating this attempt). It is critical to have a plan--think about what you *WANT* to do not what you think might look good. You can make it; don't give up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mens Rea Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 macdaddyeh, are you a "mature" applicant as well? Did you get an interview this year then waitlist or acceptance? Take Care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IRNBRUD Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 I just wanted to throw in my two cents about your choice of volunteer position. I disagree with the statement "Yes, you *MUST* have some med-related volunteer experience (ie. lab, nursing home, etc.)". While exposure to a medical setting is a wonderful way to solidify your feelings about a career in medicine, I don't believe that it is absolutely necessary in order to get you to the interview stage. In fact...I am an example of someone who did not have medically related volunteer experience and was offered an interview last year. I think it is more important for you to do something that has personal meaning for you. Choose to volunteer in a capacity that will challenge and reward you personally, and not just "pad" you application. Many hospital volunteer positions are limiting in this way, especially if you are doing clerical work and aren't even exposed to patients. I would highly advise you to choose some other setting if this is the type of thing you are looking at doing. Now...I must add that this year I DID volunteer at a hospital. I had the opportunity to carve out a position that was perfectly suited to my own needs, and that of the program I was working with. It is a fantastic spot, therefore I spoke extensively about it in my interview. So, maybe to be admitted you MUST have med related volunteer experience, but certainly not in order to be granted an interview. Good luck to you! IB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MDWannabe Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 My 2 cents: Having great non-medically related experience is like owning a home with a pool: when it comes time to sell, there are a few people who really MUST have it. But there are many who wouldn't even consider looking at your house. What I'm saying here in a roundabout way is that you are taking a risk when you don't have related experience. You will stand out, but that is positive for some evaluators, and negative for others (that are more likely to have a hard time relating to your experience). Don't get me wrong - I am one of those who had very little clearly relevant experience and still got in (maybe it was by the skin of my teeth, who knows?). You should just know going in that fewer and fewer nonstandard applicants are getting in, so you can't really bank on getting in simply BECAUSE you're different. Sorry to be so negative about this, especially given my background, but the bottom line is that you limit your chances by not having relevant experience. You can try your luck and spin the wheel, like I did, and maybe it will work - just go in with open eyes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Mens Rea (BTW, cool name!): I'm a late-twenties, father of two, still finishin undergrad kinda guy...I've applied once (to Mac only) and got an interview but the dreaded "secondary waitlist (aka reject). IRNBRUD: Perhaps I was a little rough, but I believe that MDWannabe was right on! I think someone *MUST* have had at least some relevant experience. I have never volunteered in a hospital or nursing home for example or even a lab, but I had experience in overseas health-related stuff and closer to home I teach a course on the Canadian Health Care System (so if anyone out there ever wants stuff clarified about our "system" just ask... . For example, perhaps it helped you this year to have that hospital experience? As an aside, maybe you can clarify this in November if you decide to mark submissions this year and see what type of things you read (from the other side). What I was getting at for the sake of answering Jamira's question is that a dedicated *career* is not necessary, but as MDWANNABE noted, an applicant may come across as undedicated or disinterested in s/he has nil or limited med-related experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IRNBRUD Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 macdaddyeh, I do agree with what is being said about by you and MDWANNABE, but I just wanted to note that there are exceptions. Maybe it was the volunteer experience that got me in this year, but who really knows? I actually think it was a completely different approach to the interview on my part that did it, but I guess I'll never know for sure. It would be nice if every applicant knew the exact recipe for success eh? I can totally attest to that. As for next fall, from what I hear it is all but mandatory to read applications. I should have a good idea about what to look for ( I HOPE!!), but of course by then I will be bound by the code of silence that seems to exist :hat . In the meantime, all I have is my own experience over the past two cycles to draw upon. Hey, why don't we do a quick poll just for interests sake!? Take care , IB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JAMIRA Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Thanks everyone for the comments/advice! In terms of volunteering, I have lots of med-related experiences as well as a couple of non-med-related ones, so hopefully, that's not the problem... Macdaddyeh & jmh: You have both mentioned that it is better to talk about one or two meaningful/dedicated experiences than many superficial ones. Maybe that has been my problem so far. I remember reading somewhere last year (and it made sense to me at the time) that when writing the Mac application, you should try to cover as many different experiences as possible - perhaps even relating every question to a different experience. Maybe that came across as "superficial". On the other hand, I didn't want to bore the readers by talking about the same one or two experiences over and over again. I thought that would appear as if I wasn't "well-rounded" or diverse. I guess it's a matter of finding a balance between breadth and depth... To anyone on "the other side" (read: who marks apps) - How can you really tell if a person is insincere or "padding" their application? I mean, I have been truly sincere and honest when answering those questions, but isn't it all really just subject to the readers' interpretations? Something perceived as contrived by one reader could be perceived as completely sincere by another, couldn't it? I guess this is where the whole "luck" factor plays in. Or do you have specific things you look for - ie. red flags for BS??? ( A simply yes or no will do here - I'm not asking you to give anything away ). This whole aspect of the application process makes me a little nervous... Jam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IRNBRUD Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 JAMIRA, Whew....I have waaaay to much free time today! 8o One popular interview strategy has been to have a mental list of the experiences/qualities that you want to convey to the panel and to make sure that you touch on each of the items on your list when you answer their questions. I really like this approach and think it works well with the auto. submission too! I made a list of my most valuable experiences/qualities and fit them into my answers as much as I could. Generally, I kept it to one example per answer (when I used examples) so that I could fully explain how it related to the question. Use the application to tell 15 little stories about yourself that in the end sum up your most valuable experiences and qualities and give the reader a good picture of who you are! I would also add that I didn't use an example for each of the questions, but used those answers to convey some of my personal feelings and values. As for your concerns about "padding", it is really a valid fear. There are certainly people who will pad their applications and many of them will gain admission. In the end the only way to make sure that you aren't padding, is to know for yourself that the experiences that you pursue done so with the goal of personal growth, and not solely as a means to and end. Unfortunately, YOU HAVE VERY LITTLE CONTROL OVER HOW THE EVALUATORS WILL INTERPRET THIS! I don't want to seem all knowing or anything. I fully realize that two weeks ago we were all in the same boat. It's just that I shared many of your fears and concerns after I was rejected last year and I really empathize. In the end, I chose to pursue some activities that very well could have been seen as padding, but in fact did wonders for my own confidence and really helped me solidify the reasons why I want to be a Dr. Do what you think is right for you! IB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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